Brendan Rodgers

[BKLFox]

Analogy time, do you think Tyson Fury is the boxer he is solely because of his trainer do you think he is aggressive because his trainer said be aggressive do you think he is as skilful as he is sorely because his trainer gave him the combinations to use?

He can be given all the tools, tactics, pep talks in the world but once he is in the ring it is up to him how he triggers his training to win.

[Dahnsouff]

50 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...every person placed in a certain situation has the ability to be aggressive!!!

  They just have to be in that environment where they feel threatened, for them to react in a way, that they would not normally do.

  There is a scope to build a squad where your role is threatened on a weekly basis,  and you have to fight to maintain a dominance over the player next to you. Allowing players to come in and train and then take off until the next time without that player knowing that any shortcomings within that session, has been scrutinised, and previous instructions and directions that has not been incorporated in what he has just shown, will only engender a spirit where being good, is not good enough.

  You can create an environment where aggression is controlled and part of a discipline, you just need to have the same mindset to carry it out.

Not sure that’s true. The drive to get to the ball first, the desire to stay in the tackle, is largely a mentality thing so can in part be taught. 
But, look at Vardy, look at KDH, they don’t need teaching it, they don’t this coaching into them as they have it in spades.

Some don’t and may struggle to ever get there, there is not a flat way that just works and in some cases it will never take.

What you suggest on an environmental thing is in line with what Deeney said, he explains that the group sets the lines of the minimum expected commitment, it is the elder statesmen who berate and cajole those who aren’t putting the shift in. I can believe Deeney is well placed to speak with some authority on this.

Regarding threat, it clearly does not work for everyone, such as Dan (as an example) as he has been in/out of the squad lots but rarely shows the anger and drive to be a permanent fixture.

[Deeg67]

31 minutes ago, StanSP said:

But we were. And now we are in a semi final. 

 

Do you enjoy being in the semi final? Or see it as something to resent? 

Your argument is fundamentally the same as getting relegated, then using the fact that your team is top 4 in the Championship to argue what a good job your manager did.  Would I rather be top 4 than last?  Sure - but it would reflect a lot better on the manager if he'd never gotten relegated in the first place.

[sacreblueits442]

10 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

Not sure how to respond in one way I can say there is an environment you describe and the way you describe it & that’s called the1980s and it’s toxic a team run on fear nowadays will not work.

 

I also know what you mean but don’t you think we have that, don’t you think that every 1 of those players that played yesterday knows that if they fec up they won’t play on Thursday or next Sunday.

 

The truth is we are not Man City, Tielemens knows he is not getting dropped for Hamza C you say those environments can be created but in reality those environments are brought and we don’t have the funds to have 2 Tielemens

...these environments are an extension of the managers running that club!!!

Do you believe that Klopp does not run his club without a modicum of expectations. 

  Those players who played yesterday are part of the group and they knew before they stepped out on that pitch, that they were not going to be part of the first eleven for Thursday, and the best they could hope for would be a possibility of being included on the bench.

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...these environments are an extension of the managers running that club!!!

Do you believe that Klopp does not run his club without a modicum of expectations. 

  Those players who played yesterday are part of the group and they knew before they stepped out on that pitch, that they were not going to be part of the first eleven for Thursday, and the best they could hope for would be a possibility of being included on the bench.

And if those players are not trying to force their way into the managers thinking for a Euro final they need a different career, in your analogy, do you not think those not in the XI for Liverpool want to play? Want to give Klopp a selection issue? These are professionals and if they cannot garner the will to fight for a starting spot then they will not be at Liverpool for long.

 

edit As with all such situations, the likely truth lies in the middle, yes managers can influence the environment, but players and staff all have a responsibility too.

Edited 2 May 2022 by Dahnsouff

[adejo92]

I think the fact that most of us are as excited about this conference league as other teams would be for the Champions league shows how poor the Premier league has been for us. Don't get me wrong, winning it will be good for the club but we shouldn't really be in it any way.

 

We struggled to get out of a relatively poor group stage so got demoted to what is essentially a losers cup which has probably been created to somehow pump more money in to Uefa.

Edited 2 May 2022 by adejo92

[BKLFox]

5 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...these environments are an extension of the managers running that club!!!

Do you believe that Klopp does not run his club without a modicum of expectations. 

  Those players who played yesterday are part of the group and they knew before they stepped out on that pitch, that they were not going to be part of the first eleven for Thursday, and the best they could hope for would be a possibility of being included on the bench.

Talk to me other than quoting Pep or Klopp, the 3 teams that get relegated, the team that comes 5th this season is it because their managers didn’t bounce up and down the touch line every game or have a level of expectation?

[StanSP]

30 minutes ago, Deeg67 said:

Your argument is fundamentally the same as getting relegated, then using the fact that your team is top 4 in the Championship to argue what a good job your manager did.  Would I rather be top 4 than last?  Sure - but it would reflect a lot better on the manager if he'd never gotten relegated in the first place.

Of course. But we can't change the past can we? We can't go back to November or December and change the results. 

 

I'm sure none of us - fans, players, club, staff etc - wanted to exit EL. But we did, and as sad and unexpected as it was, we dropped into a different competition but still maintained our participation in Europe. A lesser competition, but we are holding our own in it. Roma, Marseille, Feyenoord are respectable big clubs at this level. And we're in with them. While we're in the competition, we might as well try and win it. We can't be too picky and choosy about how we play in Europe, at this current stage. I agree the desire would have been to qualify from EL group with ease. 

 

Basically we are making the best of a bad situation. Genuinely what would your reaction have been if we got knocked out against Rennes/PSV? Would you have used it as further criticism of Rodgers/club? If so, no one can win. 

 

I don't think it's similar to relegation in my opinion. But I see where you're coming from. 

[smudgerfox]

16 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I think we can all agree whether you are still fully supportive of Rodgers or had enough and want a change that we have no real idea of what happens next season. Further regression seems plausible given it now stretches over a year in the league but then again he could turn it around if we have a solid transfer window and do manage the fitness of the squad better which i'm seeing some early positive signs of.

 

I've come full circle in my opinion on Rodgers and my stance now is that he still will have more than enough credit in the bank with Top and the board and for all his faults I still appreciate plenty of good things he brings.

 

We have to improve though, there's no hiding away from it. Whether it's a rebuild or refresh or reset or whatever you want to call it, it has to happen as he's lost his magic here with this current group. Momentum is everything in football, how he goes about finding that again is complex but he has to focus on what the nucleus of this squad is good at which is high energy, on the front foot fast football. If he genuinely thinks the games this season where we've had the majority of the possession but barely created anything and either lost or drawn is things being on track then this horse manure will be his downfall eventually.

 

He's not a manager who will revel in us having 35% possession but if teams are consistently having less possession than us and yet creating more then he has to swallow his pride and understand why that might be. If teams have more shots and score more then perceived control of a game goes out the window and he's tried to hide behind that old toss plenty of times this season and his card is marked.

 

I don't like our lack of movement this season in the attacking 3rd, whether it's the players without the ball not doing enough to overload and create space or we've fannied about on the ball so much being scared to risk anything until there's the 2 banks of 4 back against us and then we have absolutely no way through but we've had too many games this season where its so workmanlike. We barely press in games either, when we do like vs Palace at home we are electric but in reality teams know that if they press us then we won't press them and we also will play ourselves in to trouble and then it's an uphill battle for us. I've seen us playing in Europe the last 2 years is now the reason we cannot maintain a high pressing style when we play, if that's the case fine, but don't play a system that means we cannot cope with being pressed either as it's the worst of both worlds.

 

It's really no coincidence that the team we've had the most joy against in the last year or more are the team who are notoriously the worst team at pressing - Manchester Utd. 

 

Our away form is a genuine disgrace, it's relegation standard. Even during this perceived improved spell from February to early April we've only won once in the league away and a couple of draws, it's abysmal and thankfully our home form has been largely excellent since Nov/Dec as we'd be in a spot of bother. Weve won 3 times away all season and 2 of those are against Norwich and Burnley and the other Brentford, shocking. Injuries can no longer be used as an excuse for this either given at home we've managed to still pick up results.

 

Set pieces, again an absolute horror show. It isnt acceptable to simply say its because Fofana hadnt been playing. It can't be a lack of ability to defend or head the ball, it's a lack of aggression and desire and confidence no doubt. But make no mistake its got to be sorted and it remains a massive blot on Rodgers copybook and again will be his downfall if he doesn't act. I'll be annoyed if we don't recruit a specialist set piece coach, it's stubbornness and if we don't and we don't improve then he has absolutely no excuse and will have to take the blame.

 

I'm actually not as concerned about the recruitment as I perhaps previously said, reason being is I do think it'll be much more of a collective process than perhaps it has been under Rodgers compared to previous and therefore if we still don't get it right then that's not all on Rodgers and it might not actually improve if he does go without serious root cause analysis and a shake up of process so with that in mind I think it's the least of our worries with Rodgers next chapter here.

 

There is still so much to play for this season, regardless of Thursday these last 5 league games become very very important for clinging on to some pride and dignity from the season and proving that they are worth persevering with going forward. Our best or 2nd best manager in our history, whichever way you want to dub him is way way down on the standards he has set and the salary he commands so the pressure is on and I really hope he finds his midas touch again as there's a lot at stake here given our ambitions and the pitfalls of failing to achieve them.

I agree with this - excellent post. I would add use of the squad as something which needs to be improved. That is to say winning games without utilising the same 13-14 players over and over and placing more faith in and giving confidence to , the players not in that primary group. 
 

It’s difficult to do anything but forgive players like Choudhury, Amartey, Ihenacho, Soyuncu, Sounare, Perez, Praet, Mendy and the reserve keepers sub par performances because it’s clear that BR doesn’t rate them highly and will replace them again as soon as the primary selections are available again. 
 

 I keep reading and hearing that we need a deeper squad but what most fail to remember is that we couldn’t fit all our players into the PL or EL squads last season, so the only feasible means of improvement will be to find a higher calibre of fringe player ..while offloading those we have…that is a lot easier said than done - take replacing Amartey with Tarkowski- on paper that’s great but will JT join us if he will only play when Forfana and Evans are injured or rested …

[Dan LCFC]

Based on what I've seen this season I don't think we're going to hit anything like the heights of his first two seasons.

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, smudgerfox said:

I agree with this - excellent post. I would add use of the squad as something which needs to be improved. That is to say winning games without utilising the same 13-14 players over and over and placing more faith in and giving confidence to , the players not in that primary group. 
 

It’s difficult to do anything but forgive players like Choudhury, Amartey, Ihenacho, Soyuncu, Sounare, Perez, Praet, Mendy and the reserve keepers sub par performances because it’s clear that BR doesn’t rate them highly and will replace them again as soon as the primary selections are available again. 
 

 I keep reading and hearing that we need a deeper squad but what most fail to remember is that we couldn’t fit all our players into the PL or EL squads last season, so the only feasible means of improvement will be to find a higher calibre of fringe player ..while offloading those we have…that is a lot easier said than done - take replacing Amartey with Tarkowski- on paper that’s great but will JT join us if he will only play when Forfana and Evans are injured or rested …

Poor them, or they could take a leaf out of KDH book and make themselves undroppable, work rate and passion are undervalued qualities. 

 

How may of Amartey, Nacho, Soyuncu, Soumare, our Perez, put in a performance yesterday that gave the manager a selection headache for Thursday?  

 

Not bloody one!

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Poor them, or they could take a leaf out of KDH book and make themselves undroppable, work rate and passion are undervalued qualities. 

 

How may of Amartey, Nacho, Soyuncu, Soumare, our Perez, put in a performance yesterday that gave the manager a selection headache for Thursday?  

 

Not bloody one!

Too much absolving of player blame like they are errant puppies, it’s their job, so do what you are paid for when required or expect to be sold.

[Guest Col city fan]

5 hours ago, adejo92 said:

I think the fact that most of us are as excited about this conference league as other teams would be for the Champions league shows how poor the Premier league has been for us. Don't get me wrong, winning it will be good for the club but we shouldn't really be in it any way.

 

We struggled to get out of a relatively poor group stage so got demoted to what is essentially a losers cup which has probably been created to somehow pump more money in to Uefa.

The reality is that’s all we’ve got left.

This is a competition I suspect most of us at the start of the season would have been taking the piss out of

Anyone being honest anyway.

That said, I’m looking forward to the reverse fixture no doubt 

[adejo92]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

The reality is that’s all we’ve got left.

This is a competition I suspect most of us at the start of the season would have been taking the piss out of

Anyone being honest anyway.

That said, I’m looking forward to the reverse fixture no doubt 

Oh, I completely agree, I've loved this competition for what it is and when you look at the 4 teams left, they are europa league level teams.

 

It just says a lot about our season that people (including myself) are more than happy to take a rodgering by Tottenham to hopefully progress is what is a losers cup.

 

We are pinning any success this season on winning a losers Cup that's only just been invented!

 

It's a weird one, because I don't want to turn my nose up too much at a European competition,  which has been enjoyable,  i think it just says a lot about our season when it's all we can look foward to now.

[ARM1968]

On 01/05/2022 at 19:04, Steve Earle said:

What did you mean? Sean Dyche or some random douche?

Either or really. I frigging despise Dyche, but to be honest I think if the guy could inject some steel into us and add a bit more direct play to the terminal possession, he might do a job. THAT is how bad it has got for me. 

[sacreblueits442]

22 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

Either or really. I frigging despise Dyche, but to be honest I think if the guy could inject some steel into us and add a bit more direct play to the terminal possession, he might do a job. THAT is how bad it has got for me. 

....let's hope it doesn't happen, eh!!!

[ARM1968]

13 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....let's hope it doesn't happen, eh!!!

Totally agree. 

[smudgerfox]

4 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Poor them, or they could take a leaf out of KDH book and make themselves undroppable, work rate and passion are undervalued qualities. 

 

How may of Amartey, Nacho, Soyuncu, Soumare, our Perez, put in a performance yesterday that gave the manager a selection headache for Thursday?  

 

Not bloody one!

Amartey has put in some brilliant performances. Ihenacho was instrumental to winning the FA Cup. It makes no difference. KDH isn’t just brilliant he is a “Rodgers-type “ player as well. That makes a big difference. And virtually no manager in the EPL would turn down the chance to play him.
 

My point is in any case less about the individual qualities of the individual players. It’s more about the manager needing to face up to the realities of having a 25 man squad and the need to utilise all of those players to their maximum to get results. BR has a tendency to “shrink” the squad, to select from a nucleus of 15/16 , while the others only get a look in when an emergency occurs  - Hamza/Mascherano etc…I’m not prepared to spend another season listening to him telling us that we can’t be expected to defend corners because we have two centre backs injured or that Ihenacho can’t control the ball even as he’s averaging a goal a game and an assist every other game. 

[filbertway]

I love that the argument "for" is still generally " eeeee I dont know much about football, why would you want sam allardyce instead of Rodgers"

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

I love that the argument "for" is still generally " eeeee I dont know much about football, why would you want sam allardyce instead of Rodgers"

Fair enough - my argument is that the positives still outweigh the negatives, and being the patient type, I often enjoy watching us trying to unpick teams. I realise that many have run out of patience with it, but a lot of people (maybe you, maybe not, doesn't matter) are now ONLY seeing what they think they're going to see. It reminds me of reactions to certain players - favourites like Walsh, or more recently, Maguire would get away with all sorts because the general mood towards them was positive, so therefore the errors they made were overlooked, whereas less clubbable players (maybe Oldfield, maybe Praet, someone come up with better examples please) would have all errors highlighted and all their plus points conveniently ignored.

 

It has always happened and will continue to happen - people just don't like to acknowledge evidence to the contrary of their beliefs, because it might challenge them into rational critical thinking.

[Stadt]

I think Rodgers’ risk tolerance has fallen off a cliff. We rarely commit enough players forward, our movement is poor and our build up is just so safe.

 

The manager is the one that influences these facets of play. Even the players that haven’t been overworked look laborious, it just seems stagnant to me.

[Aus Fox]

Just an apology to @lcfceaves, although I disagree with some of the views around Rodgers, I think I took my frustration at the situation out on you a bit after the game on Sunday. 
I do enjoy the discussion and reading different LCFC viewpoints on here, but shouldn’t have let myself take it out on you. 
Sorry mate!

[coolhandfox]

12 hours ago, smudgerfox said:

Amartey has put in some brilliant performances. Ihenacho was instrumental to winning the FA Cup. It makes no difference. KDH isn’t just brilliant he is a “Rodgers-type “ player as well. That makes a big difference. And virtually no manager in the EPL would turn down the chance to play him.

Nice side step of the questions, Amartey has had some decent games but also made some horrendous mistakes that have lead to goal. and is nothing more then a squad player. Nacho is a great finisher but his all round game is far to inconsistent in a game let alone a season. Not sure what a “Rodgers-type “ player  is suppose to be, he just a good player, with a great work rate which some of his colleagues should take note of. 

 

12 hours ago, smudgerfox said:

My point is in any case less about the individual qualities of the individual players. It’s more about the manager needing to face up to the realities of having a 25 man squad and the need to utilise all of those players to their maximum to get results. BR has a tendency to “shrink” the squad, to select from a nucleus of 15/16  while the others only get a look in when an emergency occurs  - Hamza/Mascherano etc

We one the league using a nucleus of players, however this season BR has used the squad more then ever and how has that workout. It's simply not good enough 

12 hours ago, smudgerfox said:

…I’m not prepared to spend another season listening to him telling us that we can’t be expected to defend corners because we have two centre backs injured or that Ihenacho can’t control the ball even as he’s averaging a goal a game and an assist every other game. 

If you can't except Soyunuc and Amartey have been crap at deal with corners not matter what system we have used zonal or man marking, case in point against Spurs, Kane was being mark by Amartey that up to you. 

 

Iheanacho has had a brilliant end to last season, but has been average this season. Yes he scored a great goal on Sunday once were 3-0 but was non existent in the other 90 minutes 

 

 

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, Aus Fox said:

Just an apology to @lcfceaves, although I disagree with some of the views around Rodgers, I think I took my frustration at the situation out on you a bit after the game on Sunday. 
I do enjoy the discussion and reading different LCFC viewpoints on here, but shouldn’t have let myself take it out on you. 
Sorry mate!

I think we've all been there if we're honest. I think we've disagreed also at times but on others I think you're spot on. Other times you and others make me have a rethink and a lie down 😁. 

 

[coolhandfox]

12 hours ago, Stadt said:

I think Rodgers’ risk tolerance has fallen off a cliff. We rarely commit enough players forward, our movement is poor and our build up is just so safe.

Symptom of being dreadful defensively for the most of the season, your confidence ebbs away and you start looking at being hard to beat rather then playing attacking football.

 

At the start of the season we tried to deal with it by being very attacking, that didn't work and now we have gone too defensive, need to find a balance.

12 hours ago, Stadt said:

The manager is the one that influences these facets of play. Even the players that haven’t been overworked look laborious, it just seems stagnant to me.

We are stagnant, we do need some changes, whether it the player or a the manager is another debate. 

 

I think no matter who the manager is, if we want to challenge for top 6 on a regulate basis we need to refresh the squad.