Brendan Rodgers

[HankMarvin]

11 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Many things I would guess. I know some are keen to lay the whole blame at the managers door, but many things are likely to be involved, such as degredation of squad age and/or quality, form, poor tactical choices, poor coaching, pyschological decline/drive.

 

I fear we have reached a tipping point of desire within the team

Possibly but BR would be best placed to see it happen, it doesn’t just drop off during match day, everything is analysed players running and performance during training would have been a clear indicator of age related decreases.

 

It could be desire, and the case that some have overachieved and reached their glass ceiling, 2 x 5th and a FA Cup.

 
Desire and hunger are major factors, and one of the main reasons Alex Ferguson seasonal reshuffles of the pack made him successful for so long.

[HighPeakFox]

12 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

I'm seeing the 'took us to 5th twice' thing banded about a lot today - I think if we're all being honest, both of those seasons we should have finished higher, but our mentality meant we bottled it at the end of both seasons.

 

I'm a supporter of BR but I think we have to be honest and say, yes, it was a good achievement on paper, but in reality, with the players we had both of those seasons, in form, prior to injuries etc. we should have got CL football at least once.

And in turn, I see people dismissing top 6 finishes as though it was easy. I don't buy the 'he's failed by finishing 5th argument', that is simply an exercise in shifting the goalposts after the fact to try and remain 'right'. 

[smudgerfox]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

So its all down to the manager then?

While it is of course simplistic to say it’s all down to the manager - there’s a lot more to it than that - the fact remains that there are a lot of persistent problems which we should expect the manager to fix and he hasn’t ….you can blame players for individual mistakes in the course of a game but when they keep happening, when the same problems reoccur involving different players - then only the manager CAN fix it.

 

Take the Pereira marking Abraham fiasco. I’m not an elite coach but if you’d told me before the match that was the plan I’d have been even more worried about conceding corners than I already was. When asked for an explanation BR  says  it’s because we don’t have the right “profile”of player - which begs the question why we’ve just given him a new contract if he’s no use to us at a defensive corner.

 

I think there are good reasons to doubt the defending of Ricardo and Justin - BR loves them primarily because of their ability to get forwards ..

Be that as it may - defending set pieces has been a problem for well over a year - three transfer windows I reckon-  and it persists - at some point you have to blame the manager for that - not Ricky for being given a Mission Impossible or the set piece coach/ defence coach who is retained in position while this fundamental failure persists ..

Edited 9 May 2022 by smudgerfox

[indierich06]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

Was there any reasons behind our loss or bad form at the start of the season,  or was it just poor manager?

Apart from Evans & Fofana being out, we had more or less a full strength side going into the season - we still had Ricardo, and Thomas has been competent enough at LB. We also had an entire window to bring in a decent CB replacement, and ended up with Vestergaard who has been a comically bad signing.

 

You watch the highlights of that West Ham game and we played right into their hands - and it was a sign of things to come for the rest of the season. Endless sideways & backwards passing between Soyuncu and Amartey, no attacking threat, not able to penetrate opposition defences etc. It's a hallmark which has persisted throughout the season - barring a couple of good results against United and Liverpool (we've beaten no other teams in the top 7) and a decent run in the third tier European cup competition we found ourselves in after winning only 2 games in the Europa League. Even when our squad was supposedly back to full strength, we continued to play this bewildering, timid & impotent possession-based game which doesn't suit the players and isn't delivering results. We've gone from scoring ~70 goals per season, to around ~50, we're conceding more goals, we're keeping fewer clean sheets. By any metric you look at, we're not performing.

 

Why does he persist with setting us up this way? If we've not got the players to play this way, surely it would be better to adjust to get the most out of the personnel you do have? Or do people think we're playing the same as we always have, and it's just that the players are no longer able to execute?

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, smudgerfox said:

While it is of course simplistic to say it’s all down to the manager - there’s a lot more to it than that - the fact remains that there are a lot of persistent problems which we should expect the manager to fix and he had

I don`t think he can necessairly fix every problem but he should be able to foresee problems and react to them better than he has

Another but and its a biggy

I am looking through a keyhole, I see a match, I see an action, I do not see, do not hear, so cannot know what is occurring behind closed doors, and to suggest I did would be arrogant.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, indierich06 said:

Apart from Evans & Fofana being out, we had more or less a full strength side going into the season - we still had Ricardo, and Thomas has been competent enough at LB. We also had an entire window to bring in a decent CB replacement, and ended up with Vestergaard who has been a comically bad signing.

 

You watch the highlights of that West Ham game and we played right into their hands - and it was a sign of things to come for the rest of the season. Endless sideways & backwards passing between Soyuncu and Amartey, no attacking threat, not able to penetrate opposition defences etc. It's a hallmark which has persisted throughout the season - barring a couple of good results against United and Liverpool (we've beaten no other teams in the top 7) and a decent run in the third tier European cup competition we found ourselves in after winning only 2 games in the Europa League. Even when our squad was supposedly back to full strength, we continued to play this bewildering, timid & impotent possession-based game which doesn't suit the players and isn't delivering results. We've gone from scoring ~70 goals per season, to around ~50, we're conceding more goals, we're keeping fewer clean sheets. By any metric you look at, we're not performing.

 

Why does he persist with setting us up this way? If we've not got the players to play this way, surely it would be better to adjust to get the most out of the personnel you do have? Or do people think we're playing the same as we always have, and it's just that the players are no longer able to execute?

So apart from our entire first team CBs, those who would be planned for, spetn time preparing, not much. We have ceased acknowledging how much of siesmic pain in the ass that was, and continued to be, and how an inexperienced defence could hope to survive with an underperforming goalkeeper behind them is baffling. 

 

Everyone is back (More or less) but confidence does not rebound so quickly.

 

We forgive players way more readily that managers - why is this?

Do we really believe every manager is really a doctor, psychologist, fitness coach, scout, negotiator, tactical supremo? For sure they should posses some if not all of those in part, but this is a team game both on and off the pitch.

[Vestan Pance]

25 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Likewise, people will have you believe that a manager that took us 5th twice, won an FA Cup etc is somehow a 'fraud' or a 'clown'. 

Totally agree, I have numerous doubts about Brendan, primarily whether his heart is still in it, but the pathetic name calling of a manager who has been very successful for us is beyond ridiculous.

[filbertway]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

I don`t think he can necessairly fix every problem but he should be able to foresee problems and react to them better than he has

Another but and its a biggy

I am looking through a keyhole, I see a match, I see an action, I do not see, do not hear, so cannot know what is occurring behind closed doors, and to suggest I did would be arrogant.

In which case, what you're seeing on the pitch must surely mean you think a change of manager is the logical choice?

 

Generally he's happy with the performance and nothing is changing in terms of our style. He may say "we needed to move the ball quicker" but essentially we're playing how he wants them to. He was gushing with praise after a few of our recent draws.

 

We are one of the easiest teams in the league to play against relative to available ability. The only ones worse than us are Man United in my opinion.

 

The last time we put any kind of decent performances together and results was Jan-Feb 2021. That's 15 months of under performing. An incredibly lucky FA Cup win has papered over some massive cracks. We have stopped moving forwards and have been moving backwards for a while now. If he is given the ultimate responsibility of overseeing this summer, based on what I have seen over the last 3 years, my logical assumption is that we will once again take a further step backwards from where we want to be heading.

[indierich06]

25 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Likewise, people will have you believe that a manager that took us 5th twice, won an FA Cup etc is somehow a 'fraud' or a 'clown'. 

I'll give you the FA Cup, but I think you'll find 'bottled two 4th place finishes when it would have been easier not to' is far more accurate. The revisionist history on this forum is astonishing - the same kind of people talk about a 'European semi final' but conveniently miss out the fact that it's a third tier competition that none of us had even heard of, which we fell into after winning just two games in the Europa League - a competition we should have been looking to win. 

[Stinkenzo]

30 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Likewise, people will have you believe that a manager that took us 5th twice, won an FA Cup etc is somehow a 'fraud' or a 'clown'. 

Also a freakish number of people have came out and said we should have sacked him after the FA Cup Final win Geniuses

[indierich06]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

So apart from our entire first team CBs, those who would be planned for, spetn time preparing, not much. We have ceased acknowledging how much of siesmic pain in the ass that was, and continued to be, and how an inexperienced defence could hope to survive with an underperforming goalkeeper behind them is baffling. 

 

Everyone is back (More or less) but confidence does not rebound so quickly.

 

We forgive players way more readily that managers - why is this?

Do we really believe every manager is really a doctor, psychologist, fitness coach, scout, negotiator, tactical supremo? For sure they should posses some if not all of those in part, but this is a team game both on and off the pitch.

How does that explain the drop off in form of Soyuncu - a previously solid/dependable CB and fan favourite? You mention 'an underperforming keeper' - how does the loss of these two CBs explain that? These players were good enough to challenge for a top four place in the two seasons prior, did they suddenly become terrible? Did the whole team suddenly lose its ability? And yes - it was a nightmare scenario, which makes the signing of Vestergaard all the more ludicrous - although I will accept that I have no idea if Rodgers has a say in which players are brought in. Again, we're scoring less, we're passing less, we're crossing less, we're conceding more - these issues are spread throughout the whole team, so you either have to accept the unlikely scenario that the team have all gotten significantly worse in the space of a few months, or that the manager is getting something wrong.

 

I agree that is was an incredibly difficult position to be in, going into a new season - which is why we were all relying on the man who is paid £10m a year to find a solution. He's had all season, and barring a couple of good results, nothing has really changed and we look to be getting worse frankly. We can't sack players wholesale as they are - like it or not - club assets. But one thing we can do to affect team performance is change the manager.

[Stinkenzo]

8 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

I'll give you the FA Cup, but I think you'll find 'bottled two 4th place finishes when it would have been easier not to' is far more accurate. The revisionist history on this forum is astonishing - the same kind of people talk about a 'European semi final' but conveniently miss out the fact that it's a third tier competition that none of us had even heard of, which we fell into after winning just two games in the Europa League - a competition we should have been looking to win. 

We should have been looking to win yes but it also includes us having the luck of the draw, which quite literally we have not. Our EL group was about as difficult as we could have got. On paper we should have qualified but we've been average most of the season, and we also weren't helped that Napoli weren't exactly dominant in that group either which left SM/LW with more points that you'd have predicted. Then we get Roma in the semis in the ECL - at that point it stops being a tournament that we *should* win, we have no right to breeze past a team that are probably better than us. 

[Stinkenzo]

10 minutes ago, filbertway said:

In which case, what you're seeing on the pitch must surely mean you think a change of manager is the logical choice?

 

Generally he's happy with the performance and nothing is changing in terms of our style. He may say "we needed to move the ball quicker" but essentially we're playing how he wants them to. He was gushing with praise after a few of our recent draws.

 

We are one of the easiest teams in the league to play against relative to available ability. The only ones worse than us are Man United in my opinion.

 

The last time we put any kind of decent performances together and results was Jan-Feb 2021. That's 15 months of under performing. An incredibly lucky FA Cup win has papered over some massive cracks. We have stopped moving forwards and have been moving backwards for a while now. If he is given the ultimate responsibility of overseeing this summer, based on what I have seen over the last 3 years, my logical assumption is that we will once again take a further step backwards from where we want to be heading.

Hold up, what was lucky about the FA Cup win? 

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

How does that explain the drop off in form of Soyuncu - a previously solid/dependable CB and fan favourite? You mention 'an underperforming keeper' - how does the loss of these two CBs explain that? These players were good enough to challenge for a top four place in the two seasons prior, did they suddenly become terrible? Did the whole team suddenly lose its ability? And yes - it was a nightmare scenario, which makes the signing of Vestergaard all the more ludicrous - although I will accept that I have no idea if Rodgers has a say in which players are brought in. Again, we're scoring less, we're passing less, we're crossing less, we're conceding more - these issues are spread throughout the whole team, so you either have to accept the unlikely scenario that the team have all gotten significantly worse in the space of a few months, or that the manager is getting something wrong.

 

I agree that is was an incredibly difficult position to be in, going into a new season - which is why we were all relying on the man who is paid £10m a year to find a solution. He's had all season, and barring a couple of good results, nothing has really changed and we look to be getting worse frankly. We can't sack players wholesale as they are - like it or not - club assets. But one thing we can do to affect team performance is change the manager.

My point was that an underperforming keeper degrades confidence, most commonly evidenced by the CB due to their uncertainty (Or substandard quality)

In the case of Cags, he was blown before the season started after a horrific Euro's.

[filbertway]

Just now, Stinky said:

Hold up, what was lucky about the FA Cup win? 

The Brighton game could have gone either way - I mean the goal we scored was ridiculous in that.

The final itself, we've banged in a 30 yarder while Chelsea have missed a couple of guilt edged chances, Kaspers had a worldie and we were about 2mm from going into extra time with a crippled Wes morgan and about 6 other defensive players

 

I loved it and wouldn't change the final for anything, but in my opinion you're being a touch more than biased if you think we weren't fortunate to win that final haha.

[indierich06]

Just now, Stinky said:

We should have been looking to win yes but it also includes us having the luck of the draw, which quite literally we have not. Our EL group was about as difficult as we could have got. On paper we should have qualified but we've been average most of the season, and we also weren't helped that Napoli weren't exactly dominant in that group either which left SM/LW with more points that you'd have predicted. Then we get Roma in the semis in the ECL - at that point it stops being a tournament that we *should* win, we have no right to breeze past a team that are probably better than us. 

I'm talking about the Europa League being a competition we should have been looking to win, or at least to compete in. Our group wasn't that difficult - we could have ended up with Marseille, Real Betis, Real Sociedad, Galatasaray, Fenerbahce. A Premier League team should have the quality to qualify from a group including teams from Russia & Poland who have nothing like the level of resources that ourselves & Napoli have. To put things in perspective, Spartak Moscow are 9th in their league this season. Legia are 10th.

[HighPeakFox]

16 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

I'll give you the FA Cup, but I think you'll find 'bottled two 4th place finishes when it would have been easier not to' is far more accurate. The revisionist history on this forum is astonishing - the same kind of people talk about a 'European semi final' but conveniently miss out the fact that it's a third tier competition that none of us had even heard of, which we fell into after winning just two games in the Europa League - a competition we should have been looking to win. 

Well, this is just someone seeking the negative in any situation. I acknowledge that things are less than great right now, but what you present here is somewhat less than balanced. 

[smudgerfox]

13 minutes ago, Stinky said:

We should have been looking to win yes but it also includes us having the luck of the draw, which quite literally we have not. Our EL group was about as difficult as we could have got. On paper we should have qualified but we've been average most of the season, and we also weren't helped that Napoli weren't exactly dominant in that group either which left SM/LW with more points that you'd have predicted. Then we get Roma in the semis in the ECL - at that point it stops being a tournament that we *should* win, we have no right to breeze past a team that are probably better than us. 

Oh come on! We had Napoli at 2-0 at home and let them away with a draw. We went 2-0 down away fought back to 2-2 then lost it 3-2. The Spartak Moscow 4-3 was the Daka show - comedic defending rescued by superb finishing. At home we let Spartak  score a free header when they had one player in the box to our five. The away leg at Randers was pathetic. The whole campaign was a celebration of tactical ineptitude until the Rennes and PSV games which I concede we handled well. And to be fair we were never out of the game v Roma. 

Edited 9 May 2022 by smudgerfox

[Stinkenzo]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

The Brighton game could have gone either way - I mean the goal we scored was ridiculous in that.

The final itself, we've banged in a 30 yarder while Chelsea have missed a couple of guilt edged chances, Kaspers had a worldie and we were about 2mm from going into extra time with a crippled Wes morgan and about 6 other defensive players

 

I loved it and wouldn't change the final for anything, but in my opinion you're being a touch more than biased if you think we weren't fortunate to win that final haha.

Would say you're being a touch more biased using all that to discredit the manager (and players tbh) for the achievement.

I assume any games we have been unlucky to not win this season you don't use against Rodgers? 

[ealingfox]

One thing is for sure, we need a new set-up and formation for next season. This 433 is shit and doesn't help any of our strikers.

[Stinkenzo]

3 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

I'm talking about the Europa League being a competition we should have been looking to win, or at least to compete in. Our group wasn't that difficult - we could have ended up with Marseille, Real Betis, Real Sociedad, Galatasaray, Fenerbahce. A Premier League team should have the quality to qualify from a group including teams from Russia & Poland who have nothing like the level of resources that ourselves & Napoli have. To put things in perspective, Spartak Moscow are 9th in their league this season. Legia are 10th.

Braga/Napoli

AEK Athens /Spartak Moscow

Zorya/Legia Warsaw

 

I think some people see the way we breezed through last years group and expect the same from this year's, but our group this year was much more difficult. I'd pretty confidently say on "seed" comparison, all 3 this year are better than last year. In contrast last seasons was a breeze. Those teams you mentioned I'm fairly certain aren't a mix of seeds 2/3 and 4 (we were a top seed I think), so that argument doesn't sit up. If you were to hand pick the most difficult teams we could have gotten from each pot, we're more or less close to nailing it with what we were given. 

 

Either way, this is Europe. I doubt I need to tell you it's not the same dynamic as playing away games in this country. You say Spartak Moscow are 10th now but they finished 2nd last season to qualify for Europe this year, and they won't be operating on a league 1 transfer/wage budget like you seem to suggest. Legia Warsaw I can't deny we should have been taking 6pts off them, 4 at absolute worst. 

 

Not sure why we're having a debate about this tbh

[murphy]

1 hour ago, indierich06 said:

The warning signs were there against West Ham, second game of the season - we got absolutely taken apart.

True, but we also got taken apart by West Ham the previous season when we finished fifth.  They are a physical, counter attacking side that had got our number even when we were good.

 

I'm no particular fan, after some of the comments he has made, the passive displays at Forest and Roma, the baffling half time bollocking at West Brom and after a really poor season, questions must be asked.  If he went tomorrow I would be fine with that but I can't believe that the display that we saw on Sunday is what he wants to see either.  We have seen successful quick passing football under Rodgers and with a fully fit squad, a reset and without the grind of midweek European games, we might again.

 

I do share the trepidation aboutgiving Rodgers a big budget in summer but if we were to sack him we'd blow that budget on paying him off anyway.

[tickler28]

Has he gone yet? He's stinking the place out....have some respect man and hand in your notice

[tickler28]

Top: I can't really afford to sack you but could you please hand your notice in so we can spend the £35 million it will cost to sack you on another player?

 

Rodgers: You're a beautiful human being Top Vichai with great character but with all due respect I won you the FA Cup and got you 2 top 5 finishes....I'm going nowhere young man

[KFS]

Probably one of the biggest criticisms I have of him is his preparation for big games. The shit he and the players came out with before Forest compared to their camp had me knowing we’d lose that game before we even showed up.

 

This small time, apologetic, playing down of our football club is the main reason I want him out. I want to be the aggressive, iron mentality bastards sticking it to the greedy six just like Atletico were and now have their seat at the table. No other manager of the other 14 talks like he does. He probably has the best resources of them all too.

 

Who’s out there who can make the fans, players and staff believe we should be up there and has ambitions to make it happen? That’s who I want to replace him.