Premier League 2021/22 Thread

[Fox92]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

No it doesn't. The point was if you're winning titles and barely losing then the levels are insanely consistent over a season. We've never seen a side with this insane level of consistency throughout an entire season as this ManCity side in the history of English football. Yet he never turns up for the big games? That's crazy when he leads them to so many victories over a season.

 

I mean the last 2 games were big games in the tail end of the title winning season after Liverpool stumbled and after people were questioning ManCity folding in the CL after de Bruyne was substituted off - and he stepped up and dominated them.

English football history? Huddersfield, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd (PL era for those that come out with "that was decades ago") have all won the top flight for three consecutive seasons, I'd call that pretty consistent.

 

Man City spend that much money each season they should be consistent. They're gonna win the league and have already spent £50m on one of the best strikers in World Football.

 

Football is a team game but people can recall individual moments of particular players. I think that's what @The Horse's Mouth is getting at and I'm in agreement.

[Samilktray]

Statues are crap and murals are far better as a tribute to sporting events/figures 

[Sampson]

12 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

English football history? Huddersfield, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd (PL era for those that come out with "that was decades ago") have all won the top flight for three consecutive seasons, I'd call that pretty consistent.

 

Man City spend that much money each season they should be consistent. They're gonna win the league and have already spent £50m on one of the best strikers in World Football.

 

Football is a team game but people can recall individual moments of particular players. I think that's what @The Horse's Mouth is getting at and I'm in agreement.

They weren't consistent from game to game anything like this ManCity side though, no team in the history of English football ever has been. It's nothing to do with them being "decades ago" Teams could regularly drop points in 15-20 games a season and still win the league - this Man City team, even the season they didn't win the league never got close to as low as that, usually they drop points in about 6 or 7 games all season - that indicates players playing at a higher level of consistency.

 

What does the money have to do with individual player performances?

 

What are you talking about? Literally the last 2 games have been huge performances from de Bruyne in winning the title, if you can't remember those I don't know what to say.

13 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

He turns up when the pressure is largely off, if there's any form of jeopardy in the outcome he goes missing, same happened in the both the last two knockouts of the champo games this season. I'm not doubting, but he'll never truly be that elite player till he steps up in the big moment 

 

He dominated Newcastle and Wolves, two teams if they were further on the beach they'd be six feet under, what are you even on about

OK, so "the pressure is off" when there's 3 or 4 games left and his side is chasing the title? Wtf? And now he's only doing it because of the opposition, but Gerrard scored 2 screamers vs a very average West Ham side West Ham and that makes him an incredible big game player. Okay. What about his goals in both games vs Liverpool this season then or his winner in the 1-0 win over Chelsea? Those games are the difference between ManCity and Liverpool this season winning the title.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the CL games this season? You must have watched different games to me. ManCity were coasting to the  final when he was subbed off after he put on an imperious display in the 1st leg and then they completely bottled it after he went off. And in the quarter-final, he won them the tie with the only goal in the 1st leg and then was kicked off the pitch injured in the 2nd leg.

 

 

Edited 13 May 2022 by Sampson

[The Horse's Mouth]

8 minutes ago, Sampson said:

 

OK, so "the pressure is off" when there's 3 or 4 games left and his side is chasing the title? Wtf?

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the CL games this season? You must have watched different games to me. ManCity were coasting to the  finally when he was subbed off after he put on an imperious display in the 1st leg and then completely bottled it after he went off. And in the quarter-final, he won them the tie with the only goal in the 1st leg and then was kicked off the pitch injured in the 2nd leg.

 

And now it's because of the opposition, but Gerrard scored 2 screamers vs a very average West Ham side West Ham and that makes him an incredible big game player. Okay.

Of course it's off, they're playing teams that have nothing to play for with abiltiy they triple.

 

You must've watched a different game to me then, because he absolutely stunk it up, got subbed off which then created the goal which should've seen them go to the final. Atletico he quit again, odd how he keeps getting these "injuries" but turns up next game. 

 

Idk why you're bringing up Gerrard tbf, that's not been our debate. But I don't know how on earth you're comparing an fa cup final to a game against a team on the beach

[Spudulike]

15 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

Statues are crap and murals are far better as a tribute to sporting events/figures 

I wouldn't say they are crap as I think they can be very appropriate in the right circumstances (Vichai, for example). However, I do agree that good wall art can be much better especially celebrating a team achievement. Not just painted either. Should be plenty of wall space when the new buildings go up. 

[Fox92]

9 minutes ago, Sampson said:

They weren't consistent from game to game anything like this ManCity side though, no team in the history of English football ever has been. It's nothing to do with them being "decades ago" Teams could regularly drop points in 15-20 games a season and still win the league - this Man City team, even the season they didn't win the league never got close to as low as that, usually they drop points in about 6 or 7 games all season - that indicates players playing at a higher level of consistency.

 

What does the money have to do with individual player performances?

 

What are you talking about? Literally the last 2 games have been huge performances from de Bruyne in winning the title, if you can't remember those I don't know what to say.

 

Teams couldn't afford to drop 15-20 points, that's massive and too big for a title win.

If I start back in 2016, before the title was just between Liverpool and Man City;

16/17 Chelsea 93 / Spurs 86 / Man City 78

15/16 Us 81 / Arsenal 71 / Spurs 70

14/15 Chelsea 87 / Man City 79 / Arsenal 75

13/14 Man City 86 / Liverpool 84 / Chelsea 82

12/13 Man Utd 89 / Man City 78 / Chelsea 75

 

And the last three seasns of the football league before the PL;

89/90 Liverpool 79 / Villa 70 / Spurs 63

90/91 Arsenal 83 / Liverpool 76 / Palace 69

91/92 Leeds 82 / Man Utd 78 / Wednesday 75

 

If each title winning team dropped 20 points then they wouldn't even finish 3rd.

 

Man City, and Liverpool, are both really good sides but lets not pretend we haven't seen this before. Even if you look at the three consecutive seasons Man Utd won the league (2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09) (very consistent) in 06/07 they finished on 89 and Arsenal in third on 68. Massive gap and just as big as this season.

[whoareyaaa]

How come there are no Saturday games because of the fa cup?

[Blue ROI]

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, Vacamion said:

 

 

It's Paddy McGuinness.

 

No likey? NO LIGHTY!

 

 

Bit of Patrick Kielty on this angle. 

[Sampson]

59 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Teams couldn't afford to drop 15-20 points, that's massive and too big for a title win.

If I start back in 2016, before the title was just between Liverpool and Man City;

16/17 Chelsea 93 / Spurs 86 / Man City 78

15/16 Us 81 / Arsenal 71 / Spurs 70

14/15 Chelsea 87 / Man City 79 / Arsenal 75

13/14 Man City 86 / Liverpool 84 / Chelsea 82

12/13 Man Utd 89 / Man City 78 / Chelsea 75

 

And the last three seasns of the football league before the PL;

89/90 Liverpool 79 / Villa 70 / Spurs 63

90/91 Arsenal 83 / Liverpool 76 / Palace 69

91/92 Leeds 82 / Man Utd 78 / Wednesday 75

 

If each title winning team dropped 20 points then they wouldn't even finish 3rd.

 

Man City, and Liverpool, are both really good sides but lets not pretend we haven't seen this before. Even if you look at the three consecutive seasons Man Utd won the league (2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09) (very consistent) in 06/07 they finished on 89 and Arsenal in third on 68. Massive gap and just as big as this season.

I'm not sure what your maths is doing here. There's a total of 114 points on offer (38x3).

 

Although my point was more about dropping points in the Huddersfield and Arsenal sides you mentioned.

 

 

ManCity have been going up against and beating a Liverpool side who've been getting 93+ points in several seasons, more than anyone you listed here and would've won the title in virtually every other season in history, whereas some of those teams were against sides who got 70 points.

 

ManCity points total in the past 5 years has been 100, 98, 81, 86, (89-95). There's never been a side even close to being as consistently good at that over the space of 4 or 5 seasons as ManCity in the history of English football. In fact the closest is probably this current Liverpool side.

Edited 13 May 2022 by Sampson

[Torten]

56 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

How come there are no Saturday games because of the fa cup?

You’ve asked a question that contains the answer to your question

[The Horse's Mouth]

In terms of judging the longevity of these players in particularly from both these teams pep and Klopp have developed is really hard. These teams are probably the first teams the premier League has scene where it's not reliant on individual brilliance. That's why people like Lampard and Gerrard stand out because the teams were built round them. Even Rooney, Shearer and Henry .etc.

 

Like De bruyne is a great example of this, last year was it(?) he was out for a few months and gundogan came in and fulfilled his role to almost the same level and won the league. 

 

I think Salah is exception to this rule, but had Klopp had similar levels of depth to what Pep has it does make you wonder whether that would skewer the judgement. 

[Fox92]

14 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I'm not sure what your maths is doing here. There's a total of 114 points on offer (38x3).

 

Although my point was more about dropping points in the Huddersfield and Arsenal sides you mentioned.

 

 

ManCity have been going up against and beating a Liverpool side who've been getting 93+ points in several seasons, more than anyone you listed here and would've won the title in virtually every other season in history, whereas some of those teams were against sides who got 70 points.

 

ManCity points total in the past 5 years has been 100, 98, 81, 86, (89-95). There's never been a side even close to being as consistently good at that over the space of 4 or 5 seasons as ManCity in the history of English football. In fact the closest is probably this current Liverpool side.

I was trying to highlight if you took 15-20 points off the title winner they wouldn't win the league but I think I got the wrong end of the stick.

Can't believe I went through all that ffs.

 

I recall a couple of the Man Utd sides and Chelsea side (under Mourinho?) reaching 90(+) points but yeah I don't think it was as consistent as what we see now. Both Man City and Liverpool are consistently reaching high points totals, and only losing 2/3/4 games a season so in terms of that they are really consistent. I think Liverpool lost one game the other season but still didn't win the league.

But, as I said in terms of winning league titles, we have seen consistency before. That was my point which I appreciate now is different to yours... I feel like I'm in the Monty Python argument clinic

[Sampson]

Lampard and Gerrard were the definition of players who needed players to play around them for them to fit into a system though and give them freedom just as much as anyone else. We saw that with their poor displays for England and why they played their best football with the likes of Makele and Xabi Alonso around them giving them more freedom.

 

The fact Man City don’t build their team round de Bruyne, yet he still stands out as their star player and talisman even when Pep farts around playing him out of position on the wing or as false 9 goes against your argument not enhances it.

 

And Chelsea or Liverpool hardly declined when either left the club or had lengthy injuries either.

 

It’s a non-sensical circular argument and I can guarantee absolutely every non-English person is laughing at the notion that Lampard and Gerrard were better than De Bruyne or that de Bruyne is a flat track bully who never turns up for big games.

 

edit: In response to thehorsesmouth's post not the one above.

Edited 13 May 2022 by Sampson

[BenTheFox]

How many statues are Man City going to have outside their ground in 5/6 years time???

[The Horse's Mouth]

7 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Lampard and Gerrard were the definition of players who needed players to play around them for them to fit into a system though and give them freedom just as much as anyone else. We saw that with their poor displays for England and why they played their best football with the likes of Makele and Xabi Alonso around them giving them more freedom.

 

The fact Man City don’t build their team round de Bruyne, yet he still stands out as their star player and talisman even when Pep farts around playing him out of position on the wing or as false 9 goes against your argument not enhances it.

 

And Chelsea or Liverpool hardly declined when either left the club or had lengthy injuries either.

 

It’s a non-sensical circular argument and I can guarantee absolutely every non-English person is laughing at the notion that Lampard and Gerrard were better than De Bruyne or that de Bruyne is a flat track bully who never turns up for big games.

 

edit: In response to thehorsesmouth's post not the one above.

I mean KDB has hardly lit it up on the biggest stage for Belgium either and KDB has had both fernandinho and rodri built round him so this case literally applies to him as well, the only difference is that Chelsea and Liverpool were significantly weaker without those two yet man city aren't 

 

I dont think he does though, yaya and aguero both stood out more than KDB and KDB has a similar injury record to aguero and man city still continue to perform without him. Gerrard and Lampard were the accelerator to the rest of the machine, whereas KDB is merely a cog in it. KDB could be out for a season and I'd guarantee they'd still win the league 

[Sampson]

De Bruyne absolutely did light it up in the 2018 WC where he was certainly a damnsite better than Gerrard and Lampard ever were for England though. Remember De Bruyne and Hazard absolutely tearing both England and Brazil apart and there was no shame in losing to a France side in the semi-final who had comfortably the best side in the world at that time.

Yaya Toure? Ok, you're clearly just trolling now. He was a very good player who had one genuinely world class season and it was still not close to De Bruyne's best of the 2019-20 season. Toure is probably not even in the top  5 or 10 ManCity players of the last 15 years.

 

I think you're also in the large minorty who thinks Aguero, as great as he was, was better than de Bruyne by this point.

 

De Bruyne will go down as ManCity's greatest ever player unquestionably by this point, just as much as Vardy will already go down as ours.

Edited 13 May 2022 by Sampson

[BKLFox]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

De Bruyne absolutely did light it up in the 2018 WC where he was certainly a damnsite better than Gerrard and Lampard ever were for England though. Remember De Bruyne and Hazard absolutely tearing both England and Brazil apart and there was no shame in losing to a France side in the semi-final who had comfortably the best side in the world at that time.

Yaya Toure? Ok, you're clearly just trolling now. He was a very good player who had one genuinely world class season and it was still not close to De Bruyne's best of the 2019-20 season. Toure is probably not even in the top  5 or 10 ManCity players of the last 15 years.

 

I think you're also in the large minorty who thinks Aguero, as great as he was, was better than de Bruyne by this point.

 

De Bruyne will go down as ManCity's greatest ever player unquestionably by this point, just as much as Vardy will already go down as ours.

I think your blinkered in being in the moment, there is no doubt he is a special player today but to say if Man City fans did a top 5 he would probably only make 5th behind Kompany, Fernandinho, D Silva & Aguero, Aguero would probably top just because of the goals but for me D Silva takes the crown not only for Man C but he's in the top 5 within any prem player of all time which i don't think KDH has done enough to be included.

KDH is the man of the moment & his moment only started really once D Silva moved out of Man C before that he was living in his shadow. Which seasons has KDH really stood out 18/19 & this 22/23 outside of that Mo Salah or Hazard or ?? have edged him.

 

Ok the Gerrard / Lampard comparison, i think the key for me is longevity. These guys broke on the scene at 18yrs & stayed there, KDH is now 30 & only really been talked about for 5yrs, prior to that the Chelsea / German days people took little notice.

Then what do you want in an attacking midfielder, goals?, this is where those 2 blow him out the water he will never catch Lampards return & being 30 will struggle to catch Gerrards.
Despite scoring 4 at the w/end he is not prolific, that was his 1st hatrick & only those 2 seasons i mentioned above has he got into double figures.

The last thing is the talk about holding the team up & i kinda agree with the other 2 posters in that he does go missing in some games be it just not on it or kicked out of a game which we never saw with Gerrard / Lampard they would always be shouting, encouraging & putting their bodies on the line, I wonder how KDH would have approached the 2nd half of the 2005 CL final if he was 3:0 down to AC Milan for instance.

Because this forum is always quoting stats to make their points if we just looked at goals, assists & trophys won he comes 3rd out the 3 & that's not because i'm English btw but because the stats tell me.
 

Edited 13 May 2022 by BKLFox

[don_danbury]

😂 just seen Utd only have a +1 gd and sit in 6th place. Mad 

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, Sampson said:

They weren't consistent from game to game anything like this ManCity side though, no team in the history of English football ever has been. It's nothing to do with them being "decades ago" Teams could regularly drop points in 15-20 games a season and still win the league - this Man City team, even the season they didn't win the league never got close to as low as that, usually they drop points in about 6 or 7 games all season - that indicates players playing at a higher level of consistency.

 

What does the money have to do with individual player performances?

The reason Man City are so consistent is because they have all the best players.  If you go back to any era before 2000 or so and look at the line-ups between the Champions and the team in (say) 10th, and had to pick a team of 11 from those 22 players, then you find find 7-8-9 from the champs and 2-3-4 from the mid-table side.  Now, you'd just pick the 11 from Man City.  Probably if the 40 players in the two squads were there, you'd pick the 20 from Man City.  It's a far less even playing field than it ever was, and the reason is that the moneybags clubs sign the best players (as you should remember from Kante and Mahrex.  Vardy is an extraordinary exception.)

[Sampson]

32 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

I think your blinkered in being in the moment, there is no doubt he is a special player today but to say if Man City fans did a top 5 he would probably only make 5th behind Kompany, Fernandinho, D Silva & Aguero, Aguero would probably top just because of the goals but for me D Silva takes the crown not only for Man C but he's in the top 5 within any prem player of all time which i don't think KDH has done enough to be included.

KDH is the man of the moment & his moment only started really once D Silva moved out of Man C before that he was living in his shadow. Which seasons has KDH really stood out 18/19 & this 22/23 outside of that Mo Salah or Hazard or ?? have edged him.

 

Ok the Gerrard / Lampard comparison, i think the key for me is longevity. These guys broken on the scene at 18yrs & stayed there, KDH is now 30 & only really been talked about for 5yrs, prior to that the Chelsea / German days people took little notice.

Then what do you want in an attacking midfielder, goals?, this is where those 2 blow him out the water he will never catch Lampards return & being 30 will struggle to catch Gerrards.
Despite scoring 4 at the w/end he is not prolific, that was his 1st hatrick & only those 2 seasons i mentioned above has he got into double figures.

The last thing is the talk about holding the team up & i kinda agree with the other 2 posters in that he does go missing in some games be it just not on it or kicked out of a game which we never saw with Gerrard / Lampard they would always be shouting, encouraging & putting their bodies on the line, I wonder how KDH would have approached the 2nd half of the 2005 CL final if he was 3:0 down to AC Milan for instance.

Because this forum is always quoting stats to make their points if we just looked at goals, assists & trophys won he comes 3rd out the 3 & that's not because i'm English btw but because the stats tell me.
 

In the moment? He's been their star player since they signed him. He'll be remembered as a greater player than Kompany, Fernandinho, Silva and Aguero undoubtedly. Honestly, come back in 10 years time and laugh at thought that Fernandinho would be remembered as a better MaanCity player than De Bruyne.

 

He was their best player basically as soon as he arrived. Won their POTY award in 2015-16 in his first season. Can't believe you're saying he only stood out in 18/19 and this season.

 

19/20 was his best season for starters and probably in the all-time top 5 best ever PL individual seasons - broke all kinds of records for assists and chances created and in 18/19 he spent half the season injured.

 

This "big game" stuff is absolutely baffling to me - De Bruyne has probably won ManCity 20 points this season. He's been dragging them over the line the entire second half of this season.

"always be shouting, enouraging & putting their bodies on the line?" De Bruyne is infamous for being vocal and never shutting up moaning on the pitch exactly like Gerrard. Dunno about Lampard. Lampard especially was infamous for drifting in and out of games and not being defensively very good.

 

Similarly please tell me how Lampard ever won Chelsea a CL final in the most boring 0-0 ground down to penalties? Tthink you're letting 1 Gerrard goal and goals by 2 other other Liverpool players in 1 individual game blind you here.

 

Also? Not putting his body on the line? Wtf? De Bruyne is a much stronger and more physical player than Gerrard and Lampard and is one of the best tacklers about  as midfielders go - he's averaged 1.56 tackles per 90mins for ManCity compared to 1.31 for Gerrard at Liverpool and 1.20 for Lampard at Chelsea and this is despite ManCity spending far less time out of possession.

 

Also with blocks - similarly De Bruyne has blocked 0.84 shots per90min, Gerrard blocked just 0.34 shots per 90min and Lampard blocked 0.42 shots per minute. Again this is despite ManCity conceding far less possesion and far fewer sots.

 

De Bruyne is a far bigger physical presence than Gerrard and Lampard and one thing you certainly cannot accuse him of is not putting his body on the line more than they did.

 

If there's one place De Bruyne is unquestionably better than Lampard and Gerrard it's defensively and physically and putting his body on the line. I mean as well as unquestionably being better at passing and creating goals too I mean.

 

Edited 13 May 2022 by Sampson

[Sampson]

11 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

The reason Man City are so consistent is because they have all the best players.  If you go back to any era before 2000 or so and look at the line-ups between the Champions and the team in (say) 10th, and had to pick a team of 11 from those 22 players, then you find find 7-8-9 from the champs and 2-3-4 from the mid-table side.  Now, you'd just pick the 11 from Man City.  Probably if the 40 players in the two squads were there, you'd pick the 20 from Man City.  It's a far less even playing field than it ever was, and the reason is that the moneybags clubs sign the best players (as you should remember from Kante and Mahrex.  Vardy is an extraordinary exception.)

And again, all that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact De Bruyne stands out as the talisman in a side who have "all the best players" is not a slight against him.

[Foxdiamond]

16 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

The reason Man City are so consistent is because they have all the best players.  If you go back to any era before 2000 or so and look at the line-ups between the Champions and the team in (say) 10th, and had to pick a team of 11 from those 22 players, then you find find 7-8-9 from the champs and 2-3-4 from the mid-table side.  Now, you'd just pick the 11 from Man City.  Probably if the 40 players in the two squads were there, you'd pick the 20 from Man City.  It's a far less even playing field than it ever was, and the reason is that the moneybags clubs sign the best players (as you should remember from Kante and Mahrex.  Vardy is an extraordinary exception.)

The likes of Man City and Chelsea etc hoovering up all the best players at inflated prices really does make our winning of the league and FA cup even more remarkable. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

De Bruyne absolutely did light it up in the 2018 WC where he was certainly a damnsite better than Gerrard and Lampard ever were for England though. Remember De Bruyne and Hazard absolutely tearing both England and Brazil apart and there was no shame in losing to a France side in the semi-final who had comfortably the best side in the world at that time.

Yaya Toure? Ok, you're clearly just trolling now. He was a very good player who had one genuinely world class season and it was still not close to De Bruyne's best of the 2019-20 season. Toure is probably not even in the top  5 or 10 ManCity players of the last 15 years.

 

I think you're also in the large minorty who thinks Aguero, as great as he was, was better than de Bruyne by this point.

 

De Bruyne will go down as ManCity's greatest ever player unquestionably by this point, just as much as Vardy will already go down as ours.

I'm gonna call it here, if you genuinely believe that then you're mental 

[grobyfox1990]

I have to agree with Sampson here (I think) Man City and Liverpool are the best teams in the world by some distance right now, and the best teams ever to play in the PL. People say it’s ‘unfortunate’ they exist at the same time, but that’s exactly the point, they’re symbiotic, klopp and pep push each to new heights. Look at liverpools team, players from hull, soton, Sunderland, Newcastle, Chelsea reject smashing it year after year. Mahrez was amazing for us and pep has found another level for him. The mind bendingly bone crushingly absurd task of keeping up with their momentum is highlighted by Chelsea this year. Incredible squad, great manager, still couldn’t last after Xmas