bmt Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 I can understand why people from a culture where animal cruelty is widely ignored are a bit miffed about why people are more up in arms about this than racism. Antonio clearly says he doesn't condone it too, so I don't think his opinion is bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post South Shire Fox Posted 10 February 2022 Popular Post Share Posted 10 February 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bmt said: I can understand why people from a culture where animal cruelty is widely ignored are a bit miffed about why people are more up in arms about this than racism. Antonio clearly says he doesn't condone it too, so I don't think his opinion is bad. ‘Doesnt condone it’ but clearly doesnt give a shit hence this whataboutism pish Edited 10 February 2022 by South Shire Fox 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
when_you're_smiling Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 45 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said: Hes not going to be sacked though is he? Hes been given a paltry 250k, 2 weeks wages fine then started for West Ham 24 hours later. Luis Suarez got an 8 game ban over 10 years ago. Im absolutley certain if the Suarez incident happened in 2022 he’d be punished alot more severely from his club, Premier league etc and that there would be calls from all angles of society for him to be sacked. Antonio is talking complete and utter bollucks trying to deflect from the issue here. Exactly, that’s his point. Some people have been calling for Zouma to be sacked and Suarez wasn’t sacked. I don’t think anybody has for being racist in the last 10-years. (Though may be wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 13 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said: ‘Doesnt condone it’ but clearly doesnt give a shit hence this whataboutism pish How has what he said means he clearly doesn't give a shit You've jumped a bit there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahnsouff Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 5 minutes ago, StanSP said: How has what he said means he clearly doesn't give a shit You've jumped a bit there. Can see what he is saying though to be honest, as the two points need not be connected, but he took the conversation off on a tangent at the earliest opportunity. It is surely just team mate protectionism, but I also found it a little distasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinsocks Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said: Exactly, that’s his point. Some people have been calling for Zouma to be sacked and Suarez wasn’t sacked. I don’t think anybody has for being racist in the last 10-years. (Though may be wrong). Some woman lost her job for wearing a cross (over turned on appeal). Liveroool support for suarez was outrageous Edited 10 February 2022 by foxinsocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Foxdiamond Posted 10 February 2022 Popular Post Share Posted 10 February 2022 5 hours ago, Shane said: This is a ridiculous argument. Comparing kicking your cat to racism is nothing more than a False equivalence. 'False equivalence is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone incorrectly asserts that two or more things are equivalent, simply because they share some characteristics, despite the fact that there are notable differences between them and exaggerate similarities and ignore important differences.' What's more disturbing is Michael Antonio actually thinks he's made a good point here and people will lap it up! Yet another individual trying to deflect from somebody doing something wrong. I get that he is a team mate but complete nonsense to raise another issue. Would Antonio have mentioned this if Zouma was white. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahnsouff Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thread-shitting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniFox21 Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 Don't understand how posts like this help the discussions at all? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmt Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 I have seen over the last few days on all Facebook news articles related to Zouma similar comments to what Antonio said. And one thing I have noticed are that nearly all of them are from people from African nations (as a great number of them are Premier League fans), and they are also all followed by Europeans (particularly Brits) commenting much as most people have done over the past few pages of this thread. Having spent time living in Kenya and Uganda, and in one house where they had pets, I can completely understand how they wouldn't see what Zouma did as an issue. Culturally, it just wouldn't be a thing of importance. And yet they watch on whilst there is still clear racism that goes unpunished but worse unchallenged in English football - as an example, a bloke who sits near me at the football and is usually quite mild mannered both boos the knee and regularly uses archaic racist language to lambast players, particularly ours when they make a mistake. I've never heard anyone, other than myself and someone I was sitting with, challenge it. These two issues are not at all related, and nobody significant (including Antonio) is saying that they are. But I honestly have sympathy with black people, or people of other ethnicities, who think the outpouring of disgust on this is strange, and even over the top. If people who have been football fans for decades are not going to watch the football anymore because Moyes played Zouma the other day (as multiple people on this forum and elsewhere have stated), why shouldn't they question why these same people are not so offended about racism? Having said all that, I hope they throw the book at Zouma in an proportionate way. I just don't get why we all have to be so offended about racism being brought up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 Zouma won’t be sacked because he’s an asset, and West Ham need him. If it was a fringe player, he surely would be. What if, instead of three of our youth players involved in the scandal in Thailand, it was three first team players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 18 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said: Exactly, that’s his point. Some people have been calling for Zouma to be sacked and Suarez wasn’t sacked. I don’t think anybody has for being racist in the last 10-years. (Though may be wrong). And again, it might be his point but it's a fallacious one... 'calling for him to be sacked' is not the same as 'being sacked'. As it stands Zouma has not been sacked, so he's so far been treated the same as Suarez in that specific sense (as an aside you could argue, as Alex Ferguson has, that Kenny Dalglish did get the sack a year later largely because of how strongly he supported Suarez). Until such a time as he is sacked, the proper comparison is to say 'people are calling for Zouma to be sacked but they weren't calling for Suarez to be sacked'. Fecked if I can remember back to 2012 when Suarez was 'found guilty' by the FA, but I'd be surprised if there weren't calls for him to go (I remember Ferguson calling it a disgrace, but whether he went as far as pushing for the sack I don't know). I also think it's fair to assume that the FA wouldn't be handing out an 8 game ban if they'd found Suarez guilty of the same act in 2022, and people absolutely would be calling for his head, so again the comparison is a bit apples/oranges. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowlattsFox Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 People want the same punishment as someone would receive in the 'real' world. However they ain't sacking him because someone else would pick him up for free within a week. It will blow over, and West Ham know that. All the sponsorship cancellations will be temporary as well, I'm sure of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniFox21 Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 (edited) Zouma's brother suspended by Dagenham. Heard on radio earlier, a french journo was saying the news hadn't gone well back in France. Deschamps apparently unimpressed with the attitude Edited 10 February 2022 by UniFox21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 8 minutes ago, bmt said: I have seen over the last few days on all Facebook news articles related to Zouma similar comments to what Antonio said. And one thing I have noticed are that nearly all of them are from people from African nations (as a great number of them are Premier League fans), and they are also all followed by Europeans (particularly Brits) commenting much as most people have done over the past few pages of this thread. Having spent time living in Kenya and Uganda, and in one house where they had pets, I can completely understand how they wouldn't see what Zouma did as an issue. Culturally, it just wouldn't be a thing of importance. And yet they watch on whilst there is still clear racism that goes unpunished but worse unchallenged in English football - as an example, a bloke who sits near me at the football and is usually quite mild mannered both boos the knee and regularly uses archaic racist language to lambast players, particularly ours when they make a mistake. I've never heard anyone, other than myself and someone I was sitting with, challenge it. These two issues are not at all related, and nobody significant (including Antonio) is saying that they are. But I honestly have sympathy with black people, or people of other ethnicities, who think the outpouring of disgust on this is strange, and even over the top. If people who have been football fans for decades are not going to watch the football anymore because Moyes played Zouma the other day (as multiple people on this forum and elsewhere have stated), why shouldn't they question why these same people are not so offended about racism? Having said all that, I hope they throw the book at Zouma in an proportionate way. I just don't get why we all have to be so offended about racism being brought up. I am not calling for Zouma to be sacked. I would like to see West Ham suspend him. If Somebody got done for shoplifting I don't think you would get much traction by saying what about racism. Of course overall this is much bigger problem but please don't deflect that Zouma did something wrong that requires action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_horns Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 1 hour ago, purpleronnie said: How truly bizarre. And been suspended for it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmt Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said: I am not calling for Zouma to be sacked. I would like to see West Ham suspend him. If Somebody got done for shoplifting I don't think you would get much traction by saying what about racism. Of course overall this is much bigger problem but please don't deflect that Zouma did something wrong that requires action I completely agree with all of that, and would like to see the same. I just don't get why Antonio bringing up racism is so offensive to some! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 4 minutes ago, bmt said: I completely agree with all of that, and would like to see the same. I just don't get why Antonio bringing up racism is so offensive to some! I'm not offended. Just think it is not relevant in this instance. Similar to our politicians not taking real and proper responsibility but instead try to cloud the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmt Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 Agreed but in fairness Antonio is a footballer not a politician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
when_you're_smiling Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 17 minutes ago, turtmcfly said: And again, it might be his point but it's a fallacious one... 'calling for him to be sacked' is not the same as 'being sacked'. As it stands Zouma has not been sacked, so he's so far been treated the same as Suarez in that specific sense (as an aside you could argue, as Alex Ferguson has, that Kenny Dalglish did get the sack a year later largely because of how strongly he supported Suarez). Until such a time as he is sacked, the proper comparison is to say 'people are calling for Zouma to be sacked but they weren't calling for Suarez to be sacked'. Fecked if I can remember back to 2012 when Suarez was 'found guilty' by the FA, but I'd be surprised if there weren't calls for him to go (I remember Ferguson calling it a disgrace, but whether he went as far as pushing for the sack I don't know). I also think it's fair to assume that the FA wouldn't be handing out an 8 game ban if they'd found Suarez guilty of the same act in 2022, and people absolutely would be calling for his head, so again the comparison is a bit apples/oranges. There seem to be a fair few who haven’t read the full quotes or background. Antonio was specifically asked by Sky if Zouma should receive a harsher punishment. He was asked a hypothetical question so naturally there’s going to be a hypothetical answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Shire Fox Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 1 hour ago, StanSP said: How has what he said means he clearly doesn't give a shit You've jumped a bit there. If i care about something i dont deflect criticism into a completley irrevelant direction when talking about said matter in order to point score and take away the severity of it.. thats how i get to that conclusion 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 7 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said: There seem to be a fair few who haven’t read the full quotes or background. Antonio was specifically asked by Sky if Zouma should receive a harsher punishment. He was asked a hypothetical question so naturally there’s going to be a hypothetical answer. Presumably you think this includes me (since it was my post you replied to). If so...what has his response being hypothetical got to do with the comparison in it being specious? It's possible to make a hypothetical point that is logically sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 51 minutes ago, Asha said: Zouma won’t be sacked because he’s an asset, and West Ham need him. If it was a fringe player, he surely would be. What if, instead of three of our youth players involved in the scandal in Thailand, it was three first team players? We wouldn’t have won the PL ……. Now that’s serious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filbertway Posted 10 February 2022 Share Posted 10 February 2022 1 hour ago, UniFox21 said: Don't understand how posts like this help the discussions at all? I wasn't laughing at your post btw, just the tweet haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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