Straitjackets - Does Rodgers have the ability to remove them?

[Collymore]

What I witnessed last night was extremely worrying.

 

We started the match looking like a team that had had it drilled into them to move the ball quickly. The issue was there didn't seem to be any more layers to the tactics other than that. Yes, each player passed the ball fairly sharply but it was almost as if they thought "this is what Rodgers wants so I'm just going to make sure I do it" from this we often would just play it an opposition player because that ball seemed like it had to be moved quickly no matter what....

 

In the second half I could hear Rodgers shouting "give and go" and he had a go at a player for not doing it, because when the ball went back to the defence he shouted it again almost pissed off with the players over near his dug out that hadn't tried to exploit the RW. In the next phase of play the ball again went over to near his technical area and a couple of players did an absolutely atrocious attempt at a give and go that was never really on as it was so crammed and we just pathetically lost possession (like we had done all game)

 

It seemed to me the players had shackles on last night,  they were perhaps playing in fear of pissing Rodgers off and losing their place in the final perhaps? Even subconsciously?? Who knows... 

 

It felt to me that any of us on here could have probably got a result last night by simply turning up and saying "bit out of my depth here lads, do you think you could just go out there and do a job for me please?" 

 

 I just hope that Rodgers has the ability to calm things down and get them to relax and play a bit more freely, because what I witnessed last night wasn't a lack of effort or caring, it looked like they were playing in straitjackets. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt]

So I keep reading this "Rodgers' teams always finish strong" and "Rodgers' teams get better as the season goes on" i'm yet to remember or see this anywhere throughout his career (I'm not sure what he did or didn't do to Watford, Reading or Swansea tbf) but I call bullshit, it's a myth. He finished poor at Liverpool, he was in a one team league for a large part of his Celtic tenure and he's finishing poor twice in a row here.

 

I'm wondering if it's a case of he panics to get over the line therefore plays this negative, possession based, playing out from the back nonsense in order of trying not to lose rather than going out to win - always a bad mindset to have and usually leads to losing.

 

He always playing a possession based style but generally this season we've moved on leaps and bounds to what we did last season - its actually been positive - forwards, exciting and entertaining but we're creeping back to the negative side of this style in the last few weeks as we did for a large part of the second half of last season.

[sdb]

It's a mental issue, no doubt. In my opinion it's both the manager and the playing staff. Technically brilliant but freeze when it comes to crunch time. 

[Collymore]

4 minutes ago, sdb said:

It's a mental issue, no doubt. In my opinion it's both the manager and the playing staff. Technically brilliant but freeze when it comes to crunch time. 

...but it's the manager's job to relax the players. Rodgers is the opposite to CR in that respect. BR is a tactically brilliant coach and a student of the game, but there's more to the game than that as CR showed us in 2015/16. There's an art to getting players over the line. BR seems like he needs to be more mindful of this IMO and something he needs to work on -  know when just to calm things down and trust the players perhaps?

Edited 8 May 2021 by Collymore

[Fox92]

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

...but it's the manager's job to relax the players. Rodgers is the opposite to CR in that respect. BR is a tactically brilliant coach and a student of the game, but there's more to the game than that as CR showed us in 2015/16. There's an art to getting players over the line. BR seems like he needs to be more mindful of this IMO and something he needs to work on -  know when just to calm things down and trust the players perhaps?

I was confused when he said post match it's because we have a lot of "younger players". 

 

Only Fofana at 20 is young. Players like Maddison are 25 this year which is not exactly young. 

[Corky]

1 minute ago, Fox92 said:

I was confused when he said post match it's because we have a lot of "younger players". 

 

Only Fofana at 20 is young. Players like Maddison are 25 this year which is not exactly young. 

He mentioned about the young players after the Fulham defeat. 

 

Half the team that day were over 30.

[Foxaholic ME]

4 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I was confused when he said post match it's because we have a lot of "younger players". 

 

Only Fofana at 20 is young. Players like Maddison are 25 this year which is not exactly young. 

 

6 hours ago, Matt said:

So I keep reading this "Rodgers' teams always finish strong" and "Rodgers' teams get better as the season goes on" i'm yet to remember or see this anywhere throughout his career (I'm not sure what he did or didn't do to Watford, Reading or Swansea tbf) but I call bullshit, it's a myth. He finished poor at Liverpool, he was in a one team league for a large part of his Celtic tenure and he's finishing poor twice in a row here.

 

I'm wondering if it's a case of he panics to get over the line therefore plays this negative, possession based, playing out from the back nonsense in order of trying not to lose rather than going out to win - always a bad mindset to have and usually leads to losing.

 

He always playing a possession based style but generally this season we've moved on leaps and bounds to what we did last season - its actually been positive - forwards, exciting and entertaining but we're creeping back to the negative side of this style in the last few weeks as we did for a large part of the second half of last season.

The two   things I keep hearing are that Rogers teams finish strongly and if you cant win dont  get beat  both incorrect. I have followed since   late fifties and cant remember a season when every game lost we were well beaten.  Whilst I havent an answer all of our players who have got injured have been  much worse when coming back  and a lot of our best performances have been with so called fringe players Fuchs Amartey Mendy  and reserve Albrighton   the first to get left out  although never the worst player 

[filbertway]

He could try not sending us out with 3 attacking players on the pitch and setting the players in a shape that gives them passing options.

 

So similar to last season, loads of excuses and no accountability.

 

Hes still got time to save the season and finish top 4 and win a cup final so I'm gonna wait to judge. Of we fail to achieve either though, I wont be upset if we look for an improvement.

 

This is a good team and there must be plenty of managers out there that are capable of getting a better tune out of the squad.

 

All depends on the clubs aspirations I suppose. I think targets should be point based rather than position based. This squad should be capable of 70+ points I think.

40 pts at home, 30 pts away.

 

I cant imagine the hierarchy will be happy if 2 golden opportunities are wasted in similar fashion.

 

If we pick up 6/7 points from the next 3 games and give a good account of ourselves in the final then fair play.

 

Its gonna be an interesting week or 2

 

[Mr Mister]

We need to invest in getting a psychologist. 

[oxtonfox]

Richie Wellens or Mick Harford might be cheaper 🙂

[oxtonfox]

The lack of admittance of all the problems by Rodgers in the post match interview when asked was a concern for me. Playing 2 half fit players is another. Not throwing the dice early too. Confidence is a big issue. 

[cruzFOX]

No big fan of Souness but he is right that Rogers can't keep using the boys are still young and learning excuse every time we capitulate. Yesterdays failure was all of our own making. Newcastle are a very transparent team and if you see how they were going to setup and did and played from kickoff than you know what your dealing with. We made so many mistakes things that are trivial on a normal day. So yes I do think its a mental block. Ranieri manages these last few games we achieve all our goals. Really don't know what Rogers is doing at the moment. These last few games are serious! we have no more buffer left for players to get fit or smart. Sorry madders and ricky but you've had long enough! Time to show up to these matches with your A-game or sit it out. Tired of excuses where has the 'foxes never quit' or 'fearless' spirit gone?

[Chrysalis]

We are playing in a manner of fear of losing the ball, what is the unknown is if the players have been told to play like that, or the fear of losing possession means they get a bollocking as Rodgers expects quality passing.  This is the big question really, is Rodgers telling them to pass back and sideways because its all about not taking risks, or are they doing it because they know they getting a telling off if they mess up a pass.

[peterborofox]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

So I keep reading this "Rodgers' teams always finish strong" and "Rodgers' teams get better as the season goes on" i'm yet to remember or see this anywhere throughout his career (I'm not sure what he did or didn't do to Watford, Reading or Swansea tbf) but I call bullshit, it's a myth. He finished poor at Liverpool, he was in a one team league for a large part of his Celtic tenure and he's finishing poor twice in a row here.

 

I'm wondering if it's a case of he panics to get over the line therefore plays this negative, possession based, playing out from the back nonsense in order of trying not to lose rather than going out to win - always a bad mindset to have and usually leads to losing.

 

He always playing a possession based style but generally this season we've moved on leaps and bounds to what we did last season - its actually been positive - forwards, exciting and entertaining but we're creeping back to the negative side of this style in the last few weeks as we did for a large part of the second half of last season.

 

I agree with this but thought would look into it. I'll look at runs of form throughout and generally form in second half season. 

 

I'm not gonna bother to look at Reading where he was sacked, or Watford because he wasn't there long I don't think. 

 

10/11 season at Swansea...End of the season where Swansea were promoted he won the last three games of season and obviously came through the playoffs too. He actually won five of last nine regular games. Decent but not amazing. Second half of season totalling 43 points out of 78. 1.86 points per game. Just to add Swansea were second with ten games to go and missed out on automatic...yes they went up through the playoffs but is there a theme of his team's being in a good position and not getting the job done?

 

10/11 first half of season 37 points

10/11 second half of season 43 points

 

First season in premier league, at the end he won 2 of last 9. Losing 5. Not good. 27 points in second half of season from 57 available. 1.42 PPG, that's not bad tho for a promoted side. Halfway stage they were 15th and finished 11th so position did improve. 

 

11/12 first half of season 20 points

11/12 second half of season 27 points

 

Then next up first season at Liverpool. He actually only lost three in the second half of that season, winning 10/19. That's six draws so 36 out of 57 points (1.89 PPG), so again a decent total overall. 10th at halfway, finished 7th so did improve again.

 

12/13 first half of season 25 points

12/13 second half of season 36 points

 

Next up the infamous Gerrard slip season. That slip was actually his only defeat in whole of the second half of the season. 3 draws and 1 loss out of 19. So despite bottling the league, and yes it was a bottle despite how it's portrayed, the points haul out of 19 is superb. 48 from 57 is great form. 2.52 ppg. They were 5th at halfway point finished second.... although I wish to add after game 17 they were actually top so league was very tight around that period. 

 

13/14 first half of season 36 points

13/14 second half of season 48 points

 

14/15 is his last season he completed fully at Liverpool. Up to match day 30 he had been on a winning run then it fell apart. The last nine games he took 8/27 available points. The second half of the season total just for comparison to the rest is 34/57 points (1.78ppg), so again fairly decent but nothing amazing for a team that size. I stress tho it fell off a cliff at the end because match day 20-29 amassed 26/30 points.  8th at halfway point and finished 6th.

 

14/15 first half of season 28 points

14/15 second half of season 34 points

 

I'm not going to look at his Celtic record, he played against pub sides so the comparison is pointless. 

 

Last season with us....2nd at halfway stage. Obviously finished 6th. 23 points out of last 19 games, 1.21 PPG. 

 

19/20 first half of season 39 points

19/20 second half of season 23 points

 

Obviously current season not over but I'll look at what we got first half and can get second half...

 

First half of season 38 points. 2ppg

Second half of season 25 points so far and can gain a maximum of 34 points. 1.56 PPG second half of season so far. 

 

So at every club except us his second half of season has been better point wise. And league position improving too form the halfway point except us. So he's possibly right that his team's do improve by 12/11/7/6 going backwards over the years. 

 

What's concerning for me is that if we gain just one point from the last three which is more than plausible....that's only an improvement of 3 points compared to last season's second half. That's worrying for me and not quite sure why other than injuries. Definitely a bit of a mentality issue I think. Can't argue he's bottled some big end of season chances either.

Edited 8 May 2021 by peterborofox

[HankMarvin]

3 of the top 10 comebacks of Leicester City were with NP.

I doubt we will see any from BR make the list

[Bayfox]

7 hours ago, Collymore said:

...but it's the manager's job to relax the players. Rodgers is the opposite to CR in that respect. BR is a tactically brilliant coach and a student of the game, but there's more to the game than that as CR showed us in 2015/16. There's an art to getting players over the line. BR seems like he needs to be more mindful of this IMO and something he needs to work on -  know when just to calm things down and trust the players perhaps?

Ah how I long for a run of 1 nils. No seriously we could do with 4 now.

[deep blue]

29 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

We are playing in a manner of fear of losing the ball, what is the unknown is if the players have been told to play like that, or the fear of losing possession means they get a bollocking as Rodgers expects quality passing.  This is the big question really, is Rodgers telling them to pass back and sideways because its all about not taking risks, or are they doing it because they know they getting a telling off if they mess up a pass.

It was telling that Rodgers bollocked them at HT against WBA because one or two passes weren't of the highest quality, and insisted they adopt a cautious approach 2nd half.  It's hardly a way of instilling confidence into your side -  surely better to encourage them to go out and express themselves and to enjoy their football.

 

I remember O'Neil's instruction to Heskey was to go out and do what he did best - that didn't work too badly.

[martyn]

We are a very deliberate and regimented side with defined patterns of play, even when playing well. 

 

If we win the ball back, there always seems to be a conscious and deliberate effort to reset the play and build through phases. 

 

This can look terrible when we have an off day.

[Chrysalis]

25 minutes ago, deep blue said:

It was telling that Rodgers bollocked them at HT against WBA because one or two passes weren't of the highest quality, and insisted they adopt a cautious approach 2nd half.  It's hardly a way of instilling confidence into your side -  surely better to encourage them to go out and express themselves and to enjoy their football.

 

I remember O'Neil's instruction to Heskey was to go out and do what he did best - that didn't work too badly.

Yes and some here may remember I questioned it after the game, it seemed wrong to me.  He seemed to imply we played badly, yet was our best half of football for months.  It was explained to me of course thats not what he meant, but I can see how the players could take it that way.

Edited 8 May 2021 by Chrysalis

[sacreblueits442]

23 minutes ago, deep blue said:

It was telling that Rodgers bollocked them at HT against WBA because one or two passes weren't of the highest quality, and insisted they adopt a cautious approach 2nd half.  It's hardly a way of instilling confidence into your side -  surely better to encourage them to go out and express themselves and to enjoy their football.

 

I remember O'Neil's instruction to Heskey was to go out and do what he did best - that didn't work too badly.

.....I don't think he said to them, go and adapt a cautious approach!!!

His admonishment was to do with their lack of discipline in the way they went about playing the game. Wasteful play, and self indulgence was what he railed against, it was surprising they came out and effectively shut up shop, not sure if that would have been a reaction to Rodgers disapproval or a conservation of energy.

[volpeazzurro]

13 hours ago, Collymore said:

...but it's the manager's job to relax the players. Rodgers is the opposite to CR in that respect. BR is a tactically brilliant coach and a student of the game, but there's more to the game than that as CR showed us in 2015/16. There's an art to getting players over the line. BR seems like he needs to be more mindful of this IMO and something he needs to work on -  know when just to calm things down and trust the players perhaps?

Is he really tactically brilliant or is that just a media myth? A student of the game perhaps he is however,  you could be the most erudite professor ever but, if you can't communicate that to your pupils in terms that they can understand or they aren't if they're not capable of putting your theories into to practice then you aren't worth zip. Surely you have to temper your demands to those capable to carry them out. You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Neither can you expect a player to excel in an unfamiliar position or perform a duty he's not capable of. Ricardo is no Cafu and Castagne no Rio Ferdinand. Both will do their utmost best but why ask them to try and attain seemingly impossible heights when there are alternative solutions?

[Collymore]

9 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Is he really tactically brilliant or is that just a media myth?

I'll get back to you on this after the final. I think going up against Tuchel is going to give us a real insight in just how cunning BR really is. 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

26 minutes ago, Collymore said:

I'll get back to you on this after the final. I think going up against Tuchel is going to give us a real insight in just how cunning BR really is. 

Tuchel, the shithouser of Barca and Pep. Surely on that basis he’ll make chicken feed of our Brendan. Straight jackets, rabbits in headlights, lack of confidence - perhaps. I have just about convinced myself it was a classic week before a cup final performance.

[wardyfox86]

We look so vulnerable without the ball and attacking/defending set pieces, it begs the question if we train in anything other than recycling possession. 

 

No wonder he is fuming when we give away a sloppy pass, it invariably leads to a chance or a goal.

 

There were games under Claudio where you just knew we weren't going to concede, despite having 32% possession and a 61% pass completion rate. We win that 2-0 and Rodgers would be fuming. 

[coolhandfox]

I don't think he is prefect, but I think without him we would'nt have been challanging for top 4 in the last two season and our first FA cup final in 50 odd years.

 

Players have to stand up and be counted, we lack big characters on the pitch, our big players go missing at crunch moments Ndidi, Maddison and Soyuncu were woeful Friday night, Vardy has been out of form for months.

 

Agrueable our 2 best players of the season are injured Barnes and Justin

 

I'd also agrue if you want him to compete with the best, give him the tools.

 

BR peferred formation is 4-2-3-1 but we started the season with wide options of Barnes, Perez, Under (Cheap option), Gray and Albrighton, we finish the season with Perez, Albrighton and Under. Would they get in any of the other sides compete for top 4, the answer is no. 

 

We had to buy a FB and a CB, but we also needed attackers, are our net spend was around 15th in the league.

 

Every season we are short by 1 or 2 players , our recuitment team is fantastic, but can't work miracles, our net spend was also 13th in 19/20.

 

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

 

Last season we ran out of bodies, same is happening again. We needed to freshen up in january but we repeated the same mistake again.

 

Edited 9 May 2021 by coolhandfox