EURO 2020 FINAL. England v Italy. At Wembley. Thread.

[Guest Kopfkino]

Having slept on it, can still only conclude that Southgate has bottled it completely. This is a good Italian team but not outstanding, not a peak Spain or a 2014 Germany etc, yet he sets us up like West Brom travelling to the Etihad. Everyone got carried away with the first half yesterday, was bemused watching the BBC pundits revelling in it. We were good for 20 minutes until Jorginho got his knock and Mancini sorted it out. Still Italy didn’t produce in that half but at this level it’s very hard to sustain chasing the ball around rather than controlling the ball, After half time, they still weren’t creating so Mancini quickly changed it whilst Southgate twiddled his thumbs waiting for the inevitable. The lack of subs and then the timing of the subs was utterly bizarre.

 

Still can’t think of a time we’ve beaten anyone genuinely good under Southgate. The tournaments have fallen nicely for him and any time we come up against a genuinely good, top side we’re just not there despite having the players to be. There was little difference between that game last night and Croatia and that’s not coincidental. We’ve seen before that big managers are no golden bullet and you have to commend Southgate for what’s he’s done for the culture and atmosphere and his mildly prophetic statements but he’s going to be what holds us back from genuine success

[TheUltimateWinner]

I think we do fairly well despite Southgate in all honesty.

 

Unfortunately his poor decisions last night were the deciding factor.

[Dan LCFC]

43 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Really gutting to read. Guess it’s going to harm the World Cup 2030 bid too.

Qatar have 2022. Corruption is all that counts. We'd get it if we bribed enough.

[Dan LCFC]

They're on about giving Southgate a knighthood apparently. There's just such a lack of winning mentality.

[Pliskin]

52 minutes ago, reynard said:

All about opinions of course. But I'd say Belgium and Spain were tougher than Ukraine and Denmark by a long way.

Definitely. England did have a softer route to the final there’s no denying that. Ukraine we’re pathetic in all honesty, and Denmark pushed England close having pulled their two best players early and played the last 15 minutes with 10 men. 
 

Overall it’s disappointing because tactically, he got it wrong. Played it way too safe through the majority of the tournament and that theme stuck and presented a challenge in last nights game. The longer the game went on, bar one or two flurries, England became more reserved once the goal went in, and you just can’t do that against sides like Italy. 
 

For large portions of that game I couldn’t see where an Italy goal was coming from, they played a lot of pretty triangles in that first half but rarely made an impact. Then a few half time tweaks they came out and gradually pushed England back until they finally shithoused a goal. 

It was classic Italy, but it really didn’t need to be, Southgate had enough attacking talent at his disposal to lift the game, against an ageing Italian defence, but failed to react. 
 

I mean, fancy bringing Sancho on, just for penalties….. Saka, had a cracking tournament, but Sancho’s level has been something else this season. 
 

It is tough gig for an England manager, it’s a poisonous chalice in many ways, but I personally don’t think Southgate helps himself, has he got the bollocks to manage a team at such a level? 
 

18 months to find out, crumble again at the WC having had these two experiences of progressing well in a major tournament, and I think it will be time to look elsewhere.  

[coolhandfox]

Start the game with 5 defenders and  2 holding midfielders and wonder why we created very little and can't keep the ball.

 

Biggest criticism of SG, is he learnt nothing from the WC semi-final.

 

 

[ealingfox]

Has to go down as a bottle job sadly. Some bizarre decisions for the penalties. Sancho and Saka ffs 

[Sunbury Fox]

Lessons learned:

 

We are not far off being a very good international team.

 

But we have good enough players to be far braver and bolder in approach.

 

Specifically:

 

Drop this back 5 nonsense.

 

Stop playing 2 CDMs.

 

Make more use of our great attacking talent.

 

End favouritism and however much you rate a player as a manager, if they're not playing well they should be hooked early eg Mount last night.

 

We need to start playing a more progressive player in one of the 2 central midfield spots who can dictate  Personally would drop Mount in there. He's much more effective as an 8 alongside a CDM and then we can play a proper 10 in behind the striker. Mount is simply not creative enough to play as a 10.

Edited 12 July 2021 by Sunbury Fox

[Babylon]

39 minutes ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

I think we do fairly well despite Southgate in all honesty.

 

Unfortunately his poor decisions last night were the deciding factor.

We've got a good team, other than the CM's (which actually did pretty well anyway), the team is full of players who've won or competed for titles, champions leagues etc. I don't expect over the top attacking football, but Foden over Mount would be a step forward. He gets in because he thinks he's better defensively. 

Edited 12 July 2021 by Babylon

[murphy]

I haven't been this disappointed since FT took my rep points away  

[EastAnglianFox]

That Chiesa is some player though ain't he

[UniFox21]

In amidst of the disappointment, there's a hell of a lot of positives to take from the tournament. 

[peach0000]

The most bizarre decision was not having Kane on the deciding penalty. You put your best most experienced taker on the one that matters most. That’s why Jorginho took italys. Just bizarre decisions.

Edited 12 July 2021 by peach0000

[BlueSi13]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

Having slept on it, can still only conclude that Southgate has bottled it completely. This is a good Italian team but not outstanding, not a peak Spain or a 2014 Germany etc, yet he sets us up like West Brom travelling to the Etihad. Everyone got carried away with the first half yesterday, was bemused watching the BBC pundits revelling in it. We were good for 20 minutes until Jorginho got his knock and Mancini sorted it out. Still Italy didn’t produce in that half but at this level it’s very hard to sustain chasing the ball around rather than controlling the ball, After half time, they still weren’t creating so Mancini quickly changed it whilst Southgate twiddled his thumbs waiting for the inevitable. The lack of subs and then the timing of the subs was utterly bizarre.

 

Still can’t think of a time we’ve beaten anyone genuinely good under Southgate. The tournaments have fallen nicely for him and any time we come up against a genuinely good, top side we’re just not there despite having the players to be. There was little difference between that game last night and Croatia and that’s not coincidental. We’ve seen before that big managers are no golden bullet and you have to commend Southgate for what’s he’s done for the culture and atmosphere and his mildly prophetic statements but he’s going to be what holds us back from genuine success

The way some pundits and fans have been going on you'd think this current Italy side are Brazil from the 60's reborn.  Not having they were the best side of the tournament either, they were desperately lucky to not get knocked out by Austria and they were easily second best vs Spain.

 

Waking up the more I realise how much of a missed opportunity last night was, just like Croatia we completely surrendered any chance of winning last night after taking the lead.  It's a pattern.  

[Bert]

The “England are cheats brigade” are all eerily quiet today…. 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

Southgate had a total shocker last night. Reverted to type, Sticking everyone except Kane behind the ball, trying to see out a 1-0 lead, it cost us the game. We were on top, creating chances and could have got 2 or 3 in the first half had we gone for the jugular. Southgate does some things well and he has created a great team spirit, but his pragmatism and lack of conviction will always cost us in these big games.

[dobbylcfc]

Started off amazing with a great Finnish from shaw then went down from there I’m still baffled by bringing Henderson on only to take him off again. How many times did Kane have to drop back at one point he looked like he was playing CM out of the subs that came on the only one that looked a threat was grealish. Fair play to slab head and Kane for there penos but what was rashford thinking with his reminded me so much of kermogant 😰 fair play to England for getting to the final but feels this morning like it always does when England play in tournaments just feels MEH

[Foxxed]

I woke up this morning angrier

 

Southgate knows you need a calm head and experience for penalties. Something we've lacked.

 

Southgate knows Saka is 19, inexperienced, a rabbit in the headlights in the game, choked moments ago, at the start of his career.

 

And so he sends up Saka, aware of the abuse coming to him.

 

The look on Saka's face at the end. He was a child, broken.

[foxes_rule1978]

10 minutes ago, Bert said:

The “England are cheats brigade” are all eerily quiet today…. 

No bigger cheats than Italy, always been the case… constant fouling from them throughout 

[Pliskin]

8 minutes ago, Bert said:

The “England are cheats brigade” are all eerily quiet today…. 

That’s a classic taking one for the team. He was quality in that game, not got the legs anymore but my god his brain is something else. And that includes dirty play, do whatever to win a game. 
 

Something Italy were pretty good at last night, the were able to perform some kind of foul/antic to slow England down through extra time as much as they could. Something we should do ourselves in all honesty, all part of being a top side, you need a bit of a gritty dirty side to you too. 

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Did a single pundit criticise the manager for being negative after the game? I see Lineker posting now that we need to be more attacking, yet never saw him say much on TV (couldn't watch the end of the show). 

I agreed with much of what Shearer was saying, the rest were mainly making excuses.

[Bert]

Just now, Pliskin said:

That’s a classic taking one for the team. He was quality in that game, not got the legs anymore but my god his brain is something else. And that includes dirty play, do whatever to win a game. 
 

Something Italy were pretty good at last night, the were able to perform some kind of foul/antic to slow England down through extra time as much as they could. Something we should do ourselves in all honesty, all part of being a top side, you need a bit of a gritty dirty side to you too. 

And something we don’t do often enough, I agree. But when it’s another country it doesn’t get mentioned. If that was Maguire on Insigne the whole world would know about it. 

[RowlattsFox]

We made it easy for Chiellini and Bonucci after the first 20 minutes because we barely put any pressure on them. No runners in behind and Kane not bothering to get in the box. 

[Pliskin]

2 minutes ago, Bert said:

And something we don’t do often enough, I agree. But when it’s another country it doesn’t get mentioned. If that was Maguire on Insigne the whole world would know about it. 

True, it’s often the case when it comes to England. Had we won though absolutely guaranteed the European press would have looked for anything negative to plaster their papers with. 
 

A little bit more grit, and lessons learned for Southgate and England will be a force in 18 months.  

[NasPb]

Don't know in what thread to put this but there is a loud and vocal (yet small of course) minority of English radicals who cause absolute destruction for no reason. I won't even say English people because they act like barbarians. A similar thing exists in the USA though i wouldn't say it's the same thing.

 

Regarding overconfidence, I also think as a neutral the jingoism promoted and prompted up by the right wing media like the sun and the telegraph doesn't help. As i live in Spain i can guarantee you most wanted England to lose because of the perceived egotistical logic of the nation. It's not as such for me rather that people seem to get sucked into it, singing songs about German bombers, or rule británnia. Even it's coming home was misinterpreted by radicals. And just as some Italian players said, it gave them more confidence. 

 

I won't even go on about the booing of knee taking and booing of national anthems, which is disgraceful. It seems to me, although it isn't formal, England still has a massive ultra problem and in general, an ultra nationalistic problem. Is this the worst in the world? No. But it gives a bad image especially after the British empire, brexit, etc. And let me be clear, the European union is not some union of democracy human rights or any of that bs. They are just as bad, i won't ever forget when they shot at boats of child refugees from Syria or when in Spain they were authorized to use deadly force on immigrants coming from West Africa. Or when they intervened in Libya, or when they put deadly austerity on Greece. What i do think is that both things manifest themselves in different ways. 

 

And before i finish any form of exceptionalism isn't okay. Same with ultra nationalism. Other European nations are very hypocritical as well as Italy for example has a massive racism problem, yet its not talked about. It's just i thjnk anglo - American jingoism is some of the most open and ugly in all of its essence. Regardless, this is nothing against the average English person, rather against those radicals who exist (as they do in all nations) and also those who have incited them and encouraged them. Like this conservative government, the far right media, and more. It's a shame you lot didn't win yesterday, but it seemed kind of poetic justice according to some Europeans. I'm not European myself either so it is what it is. 

 

I also think the lack of interest by part of many English fans in the tournament is totally understandable. It's very much London centric everything.. Maybe that has a part to play. I don't know

 

If this isn't the right thread for this, please feel free to move it. 

Edited 12 July 2021 by NasPb