EURO 2020 FINAL. England v Italy. At Wembley. Thread.

[David Hankey]

Surely, in all the charts, diagrams and paraphernalia that surrounds the manager and coaches nowadays isn't it too much to ask to have a sheet which records the players in the squad and their history of taking penalties, particularly in tournaments like these? Bloody hell it's not rocket science but just simply, attention to detail.

[oadby.fox]

 Tremendously disappointing.

 

I have kept fairly quiet on many things this tournament as I was happy that we were just about managing to scrape through every game. In the end though, the lack of attacking intent and managerial direction has ultimately cost us in addition to some bizarre substitutions in the final. I thought it was strange bringing Henderson on at a time when the game was crying out for some to run at them, I was thinking Grealish, but to bring Hendo on only to take him off for penalties was even more bizarre. 
 

I also did not understand the introduction of Rashford and Sancho. The latter should’ve perhaps been brought on earlier when there was time to make something happen but instead it seems both were brought in from the cold to try and deliver in an incredibly high pressure situation - not very sensible when you’re in horrid form and low in confidence. Like others have said, for all of Italy’s street wise mentality, the two CB’s are old and are there to be got at if you make them commit. We had the youth, energy and pace in the squad to make it happen but didn’t even really give it a go. That’s the most frustrating thing in the end as well, for all their endeavour we will always wonder why Southgate couldn’t take the brakes off for 40 minutes or so. 
 

Finally, Kane, England’s poster boy was anonymous yet again. I know he popped up with important goals on the way to the final but let’s be honest - his overall performances in the big moments for both club and country have been appalling and it’s not impossible to imagine someone else being able to grab similar goals. His overall influence on the game for England is so minimal especially considering that he’s a captain and someone who is supposed to be talismanic. For me, he’s just never had that quality - he’s been fantastically consistent for Tottenham but he seems to be found out when it matters and that’s ultimately what you’ll be remembered for irrespective of how many tap-ins or penalties you score against lower ranked sides. 
 

This squad was crying out for a Barnes type player and with Sancho we did have something quite close but he was never really utilised during the tournament and I suppose his England form somewhat merits that exclusion. Having said that, I doubt Barnes would get a start even if fit. On the bright side, players of the tournament for me are Luke Shaw and Phillips. I’ve honestly never seen Shaw play so well, he was thoroughly impressive throughout the whole thing.

[foxes_rule1978]

We defend well, very well as a unit, and you will always have a chance in a knockout tournament doing that. However, you look at the players on the bench, the creative ones not being used it is frustrating… grealish on earlier we might not have even had penalties. So Southgate does have his faults but I can’t bring myself to knock him after bringing a first major final since 66’. I just hope he sees what talent going forward we have and trusts in it, can’t knock how well we defend though 

[Les-TA-Jon]

If Rashford and Sancho were definitely taking penalties and Sterling definitely wasn't taking one, then why not do a like-for-like swap and let them play for a bit, before the shootout? 

[Babylon]

Just now, Les-TA-Jon said:

If Rashford and Sancho were definitely taking penalties and Sterling definitely wasn't taking one, then why not do a like-for-like swap and let them play for a bit, before the shootout? 

Exactly... you know, then you don't have to play the game out with Rashford at right back. 

[fox_up_north]

1 minute ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

If Rashford and Sancho were definitely taking penalties and Sterling definitely wasn't taking one, then why not do a like-for-like swap and let them play for a bit, before the shootout? 

Exactly my thoughts. No matter who you are, you need to warm up into the game - get a few touches on the ball and the feel of the pitch. 

[foxes_rule1978]

People keep going on about him being lucky with the draw, but that is down to these other teams failures, Spain not topping the group Portugal finishing third, Holland going out…

 

in 2014 we couldn’t beat Costa Rica and finished bottom of the group, in 2016 we were dumped out by Iceland and finished behind Wales in the group. I don’t see such embarrassments under Southgate.

Edited 12 July 2021 by foxes_rule1978

[gerblod]

1 hour ago, UniFox21 said:

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 Everyone got carried away with the first half yesterday, was bemused watching the BBC pundits revelling in it. We were good for 20 minutes...

so Mancini quickly changed it whilst Southgate twiddled his thumbs waiting for the inevitable. The lack of subs and then the timing of the subs was utterly bizarre.

 

...and any time we come up against a genuinely good, top side we’re just not there despite having the players to be. There was little difference between that game last night and Croatia and that’s not coincidental. We’ve seen before that big managers are no golden bullet and you have to commend Southgate for what’s he’s done for the culture and atmosphere and his mildly prophetic statements but he’s going to be what holds us back from genuine success

 

Thank you for that excellent analysis. You identified key issues with the framework of the England international set-up - and the main issue is the parochial way in which our Victorian FA curries favour with everyone other than those 'common' people most needful of some form of national beacon (English, that is) in these utterly benighted times.

 

Southgate is a nice guy - he cares about his players and was solicitous to those individuals who were most affected by losing out, but tactically he isn't effective - he appeared dazzled by the headlights as the game progressed.

He has talented players - I'd like a fiver for everyone who's written that about an England side since 1966.

 

I watched the Argentina - Brazil game early on Sunday morning. Di Maria scored relatively early and the Argentine defence fought tooth-and-nail to defend that goal - but they also continued to attack. Scaloni used his subs masterfully - Southgate acted out of necessity and, ultimately, allowed the looming penalty shoot-out to distract him from his touchline management.

 

Tournaments and penalty shoot-outs are always in the hands of the gods. France stumbled when they looked favourites.

The only influence a manager has is who to select and how to create the appropriate ongoing game plan. 

Half the England team are committed footballers and the rest look like they are on a photo opportunity. I would choose Vardy over Sterling any day of the week.

One other aspect of this tourney and the international scene is the inclusion of club units into the national team. Chiellini and Bonucci both play for Juve as a highly successful unit in a highly successful team. With the amount of foreign players dominating Premier team numbers that kind of pairing isn't likely to happen soon to benefit the national side.

On a human scale, I hope England's loss is Italy's gain. They bore the appalling brunt of the initial influx of Covid into Europe and helped their neighbours prepare for it by their experiences. If winning this brings some joy to the Italians, then it's not a total defeat for this country.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

It really isa head scratcher shy you'd bring players on to take penalties in a game of that magnitude. They were always likely to miss, it's too much pressure. And how old is saka? 19? Taking the 5th pen? It was a shit show and no mistake. Why can't Henderson or sterling take on? Am I right in thinking rashford was so shit at pens for man United he got took off them? So bring him on to take one? It's anger inducing never mind the way we camped on the edge of our box from 10 minutes until we inevitably conceded. Frustrating doesn't cut it. Bloody moronic. 

[SemperEadem]

That video has really got in my head. jibbers getting attacked by their own fans with pricks in the background shouting "pay yer ****ing money" to young lads with no hope of being able to stump up a grand for a ticket.

[Blue ROI]

18 minutes ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

People keep going on about him being lucky with the draw, but that is down to these other teams failures, Spain not topping the group Portugal finishing third, Holland getting out out…

 

in 2014 we couldn’t beat Costa Rica and finished bottom of the group, in 2016 we were dumped out by Iceland and finished behind Wales in the group. I don’t see such embarrassments under Southgate.

You haven't had the embarrasments of 2006-16 but its not as if ye have beaten many elite sides either.

 

Even if they had gone further in 2014-16 they would have met a vastly better side than Southgate did,

 

That does reflect badly on the other sides yes but England didnt beat anyone of note outside of a past their best Germany.Of the teams ranked by the odds before the tournament. 5 of the 6 England played were outside the top 8. Italy overcame 2 of the top 8 plus England.

 

I wasn't really that impressed watching England in the tournament outside of Ukraine. Its not as if there was many Gazza 96 or Owen 98 moments of genius. Germany was rather dull for 70 minutes or so. Even last night after a perfect start they didnt look any way threatening. The most sustained pressure in the match was by Italy in the Third quarter.

 

Yet again Harry Kane was found wanting on the big occasion. In Jamie Vardy England has one of the top strikers in World Football the last 6 years but he never got much of a look in. I felt sorry for Calvert Lewin at times.

 

If England evolve then they will be in the shake up in the years ahead but won't win trophies as long as Southgate is around.

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 July 2021 by Blue ROI

[Captain...]

The problem with the pragmatic/negative/boring approach is when it works you accept it, but when it doesn't you are left frustrated. 

 

If we had gone out fighting with Sancho, Grealish, Rashford bombing forwards to support Kane and fallen short we'd all be a lot happier. Seemingly playing for penalties with the penalty takers we had just seemed madness.

[foxes_rule1978]

2 minutes ago, Blue ROI said:

You haven't had the embarrasments of 2006-16 but its not as if ye have beaten many elite sides either.

 

E

 

That does reflect badly on the other sides yes but England didnt beat anyone of note outside of a past their best Germany.Of the teams ranked by the odds before the tournament. 5 of the 6 England played were outside the top 8. Italy overcame 2 of the top 8 plus England.

 

 

 

 

It is nonsense it is never easy to make a final, you have to beat the sides that are performing the best to do it. Other teams failures are not our problem. Using rankings as well is just pointless, Belgium are certainly not the best team 

Edited 12 July 2021 by foxes_rule1978

[coolhandfox]

19 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I don't care how good someone is in training, I just can't fathom how you could watch Saka after he came on and think it was right for him to take a pen. 

Look a bag of nerves, not sure how he got high in the picking order over Sancho, who has almost as many assist and goals in 38 games this season 16 goals and 20 assist, then Saka has in his whole career (88 games 11 goals, 21 assists) 

 

I have a feeling it was down once again to him being better defensively 

 

[Babylon]

11 minutes ago, SemperEadem said:

That video has really got in my head. jibbers getting attacked by their own fans with pricks in the background shouting "pay yer ****ing money" to young lads with no hope of being able to stump up a grand for a ticket.

So what, they should just stand back and let them all in? Some of them went OTT, but they also helped get it back under control when the stewards had lost it. People were getting crushed, it was dangerous. 

 

You're not the first person I've seen seemingly stand up for people who've broken down numerous barriers, pushed down fences, rushed entrances, attacked police, stewards and fans with tickets and put lives in danger. But apparently it's those standing up to them who are the problem, **** that. 

 

"Jibbers" presumably another word for criminal yeah?

Edited 12 July 2021 by Babylon

[fox_up_north]

Just seen Grealish tweeting that he offered to take a pen. Looks like Saka got picked over him. There must really be issues Southgate has with him. 

[CosbehFox]

Just now, fox_up_north said:

Just seen Grealish tweeting that he offered to take a pen. Looks like Saka got picked over him. There must really be issues Southgate has with him. 

Or Southgate has seen them all take penalties in training and they were his strongest five? Henderson didn't take one yet he did versus Colombia at WC18

[Bert]

1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Or Southgate has seen them all take penalties in training and they were his strongest five? Henderson didn't take one yet he did versus Colombia at WC18

Henderson couldn’t take one as he’d been subbed off. 

[Spudulike]

1 hour ago, NasPb said:

Don't know in what thread to put this but there is a loud and vocal (yet small of course) minority of English radicals who cause absolute destruction for no reason. I won't even say English people because they act like barbarians. A similar thing exists in the USA though i wouldn't say it's the same thing.

 

Regarding overconfidence, I also think as a neutral the jingoism promoted and prompted up by the right wing media like the sun and the telegraph doesn't help. As i live in Spain i can guarantee you most wanted England to lose because of the perceived egotistical logic of the nation. It's not as such for me rather that people seem to get sucked into it, singing songs about German bombers, or rule británnia. Even it's coming home was misinterpreted by radicals. And just as some Italian players said, it gave them more confidence. 

 

I won't even go on about the booing of knee taking and booing of national anthems, which is disgraceful. It seems to me, although it isn't formal, England still has a massive ultra problem and in general, an ultra nationalistic problem. Is this the worst in the world? No. But it gives a bad image especially after the British empire, brexit, etc. And let me be clear, the European union is not some union of democracy human rights or any of that bs. They are just as bad, i won't ever forget when they shot at boats of child refugees from Syria or when in Spain they were authorized to use deadly force on immigrants coming from West Africa. Or when they intervened in Libya, or when they put deadly austerity on Greece. What i do think is that both things manifest themselves in different ways. 

 

And before i finish any form of exceptionalism isn't okay. Same with ultra nationalism. Other European nations are very hypocritical as well as Italy for example has a massive racism problem, yet its not talked about. It's just i thjnk anglo - American jingoism is some of the most open and ugly in all of its essence. Regardless, this is nothing against the average English person, rather against those radicals who exist (as they do in all nations) and also those who have incited them and encouraged them. Like this conservative government, the far right media, and more. It's a shame you lot didn't win yesterday, but it seemed kind of poetic justice according to some Europeans. I'm not European myself either so it is what it is. 

 

I also think the lack of interest by part of many English fans in the tournament is totally understandable. It's very much London centric everything.. Maybe that has a part to play. I don't know

 

If this isn't the right thread for this, please feel free to move it. 

Some interesting points and I think you are right about lack of understanding and misinterpretation in some other countries of the English 'logic' (and I'm pleased you acknowledge that it's only a minority). 

 

Just for info, it's Rule, Brittania (a very important comma that changes context). 

[Bert]

7 minutes ago, Babylon said:

So what, they should just stand back and let them all in? Some of them went OTT, but they also helped get it back under control when the stewards had lost it. People were getting crushed, it was dangerous. 

 

You're not the first person I've seen seemingly stand up for people who've broken down numerous barriers, pushed down fences, rushed entrances, attacked police, stewards and fans with tickets and put lives in danger. But apparently it's those standing up to them who are the problem, **** that. 

 

"Jibbers" presumably another word for criminal yeah?

Also in this day and age these people could have had absolutely anything on them, if their intention was to do what they did and break through the barriers etc, there’d be no way they’d have been searched. 

[CosbehFox]

2 minutes ago, Bert said:

Henderson couldn’t take one as he’d been subbed off. 

Yeah totally but his sub was made in consideration of penalties coming wasn't it? Given Henderson's versatility, he could have played as a third CB if he wanted him on for penalties but he clearly didn't fancy him for them. 

Edited 12 July 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[Super_horns]

Just now, Bert said:

Henderson couldn’t take one as he’d been subbed off. 

Guess so he didn’t have to take one.

 

Didn’t he miss in 2018?

 

Was Southgate basically saying he trusted a centre half more than any of our attack players to score ?

 

Guess he was right !

[Sharpe's Fox]

Can't understand people who are fixating on who is taking penalties when you can point to much more substantive things deficient in Southgates in game management. There are thse who will really focus on the lowest common denominator.

Edited 12 July 2021 by Sharpe's Fox

[fox_up_north]

Just now, Cardiff_Fox said:

Or Southgate has seen them all take penalties in training and they were his strongest five? Henderson didn't take one yet he did versus Colombia at WC18

Oh that will undoubtedly be taken into account but Grealish, who is 6 years older, with experience of relegation and promotion, as well as many more appearances in top flight VS a 19 year old who's only just on his second full year of playing with a relatively standard Arsenal team, is a pretty big call to make. To me, that implies there's an underlying mentality issues. 

I'm not a particularly big fan of either, btw, but it does strike me as a simmering problem. 

[Babylon]

Just now, Bert said:

Also in this day and age these people could have had absolutely anything on them, if their intention was to do what they did there’d be no way they’d have been searched. 

There was a video of them pushing down huge security fences, two stewards nearly got trapped underneath and I can't be sure one actually wasn't. It's a disgrace, the police need to be looking through every single tape and bang the lot of them up.