West Ham United 4-1 Leicester City - Post Match Thread

[Lambert09]

It’s actually a really good result. We would have lost anyway but this way we don’t have to see Perez next weekend! 

[Metal Lover]

Unfortunatly I don't think there is any sorting out of that defence.  Going to be a tough season if we are stuck with that.

[indierich06]

As bad as we were, West Ham had a game plan and executed it - helped along by a red card and some shocking mistakes. 

 

Amartey is trying his best but isn't good enough, and Soyuncu looks lost without an organiser like Evans next to him. Let's hope Vestergaard is back soon and Evans isn't too far behind - tonight was always going to be a struggle with them pressing and trying to hit us on the counter, so not sure why Rodgers persisted with trying to pass out from the back with two players so uncomfortable with eachother. I felt like we should have tried to pack the midfield with more of a physical presence from the start - maybe Soumare alongside Ndidi - but we'll never know. 

 

A win against Norwich would give us some much needed respite going into the City game. I don't think it's panic stations just yet. 

[lee7]

We enjoyed lots of possession in the first half but we did little with it. Watching Amartey and Soyuncu pass the ball side to side without attempting to pass into midfield had me pulling my hair out. It shows just how much we miss a confident ball playing centre half like Evans or Fofana who are willing to attempt risky passes. 

 

 

 

 

 

[jim5000]

29 minutes ago, Metal Lover said:

Unfortunatly I don't think there is any sorting out of that defence.  Going to be a tough season if we are stuck with that.

Apart from replacing the two central defenders.... And the left back....

[jim5000]

20 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

As bad as we were, West Ham had a game plan and executed it - helped along by a red card and some shocking mistakes. 

 

Amartey is trying his best but isn't good enough, and Soyuncu looks lost without an organiser like Evans next to him. Let's hope Vestergaard is back soon and Evans isn't too far behind - tonight was always going to be a struggle with them pressing and trying to hit us on the counter, so not sure why Rodgers persisted with trying to pass out from the back with two players so uncomfortable with eachother. I felt like we should have tried to pack the midfield with more of a physical presence from the start - maybe Soumare alongside Ndidi - but we'll never know. 

 

A win against Norwich would give us some much needed respite going into the City game. I don't think it's panic stations just yet. 

Amartey was better than Soyuncu tonight, he didn't give away two goals.

[Bptiger]

I have got to have a RANT, 

how the f***** hell are u going to win games by passing the ball across the backline , we nearly did this for the whole 1st half . And then when we did pass it forward our control was shit and they scored from it . We should have sold Maddison , because he stuck himself up front and never came looking for the ball , he didn’t look like he wanted to be out there . Poor Dan is just not up to this grade , so unless the manager can pull a rabbit out of his arse and change how this team plays we are going to get smashed more than we win 

[Deeg67]

18 minutes ago, lee7 said:

We enjoyed lots of possession in the first half but we did little with it. Watching Amartey and Soyuncu pass the ball side to side without attempting to pass into midfield had me pulling my hair out. It shows just how much we miss a confident ball playing centre half like Evans or Fofana who are willing to attempt risky passes. 

 

 

 

 

 

"Enjoy" is clearly a subjective term.

[jim5000]

21 minutes ago, Bptiger said:

I have got to have a RANT, 

how the f***** hell are u going to win games by passing the ball across the backline , we nearly did this for the whole 1st half . And then when we did pass it forward our control was shit and they scored from it . We should have sold Maddison , because he stuck himself up front and never came looking for the ball , he didn’t look like he wanted to be out there . Poor Dan is just not up to this grade , so unless the manager can pull a rabbit out of his arse and change how this team plays we are going to get smashed more than we win 

Another way of looking at it is that we are pretty much on par with last season, when we finished 5th

[Dan LCFC]

Embarrassingly bad. As bad as the first away game back in so long could've possibly gone.

 

Not a single positive to say about that. The only consolation is they thumped us twice last year as well it really just might be a case of a terrible match up rather than a bad sign for the season. Worrying though. A really, really bad display by any measure. Defence were nothing short of a disgrace.

[Leicester_Loyal]

One of the worst aways I've ever had, not long got back.

 

Red card changed the game, but even before that they were the better team, I thought it was pretty harsh at the time. Big Dan is useless with the ball, causes all sorts of panic. Cags had a dreadful game, needs a calm imposing figure alongside him or he always seem to struggle every other game.

 

Our injuries are killing us, there must be more to it than just pure bad luck, it's either training issues or we're rushing players back too fast.

 

This team seems to have no bollocks, it just rolls over when the going gets tough, if we go a goal down, you can guarantee we'll concede at least another 1 before we get one back. As soon as it went 2-0 tonight (even if Perez was still on the pitch), you already knew we weren't getting anything from the game. It didn't feel like we created much either, God help us if we fail to beat Norwich.

 

Bad day at the office and we move on, again.

[smudgerfox]

West Ham had six players in our half when the ball was with our back line. They had a four matched up to our back four, standing ten yards off them, and two centre mids in the half way line area. They didn’t so much press as simply occupy the space we wanted to pass in to. We feared them on the break especially after first goal and by occupying the space and knowing that Amartey and  Soyuncu are not confident passers they let them have the  ball. All of which made us hesitant and slow when  trying to play through them, especially when a few early attempts went wrong and invited pressure. The upside of West Ham’s tactics was that they nearly always  had at least six players in advanced positions to transition quickly once the ball was ŵon back. Moyes outthought Brendan (again!) and Brendan offered no response to rectify the situation. The game followed the same pattern as last seasons matches with a similar outcome. West Ham let us have the ball and allow us to believe we’re dictating the game - win it back and attack in numbers and at ruthless speed and with ruthless finishing. They have great players to execute this game plan - we have no answer to it. 
 

That’s why we lost heavily again but there are some other factors.

 

Kasper sold Perez short with the pass that led to the red card. His distribution often plays us into trouble and he’s a mistake waiting to happen in a side that always wants to play out from the back. 
 

When you look at other sides who successfully play 4231 the three players behind the striker are usually Rolls Royce, high impact players. The attacking threat is directly related to their ability to join up with the striker and to win the ball ,back high up the pitch. Our three are performing very poorly at the minute. Barnes is being thwarted as defences force him to take the ball back to goal denying him space to run into, while Maddison and Perez are both ineffective and weak - our attacks routinely break down when they get the ball. 
 

Finally Vardy gave the ball away under no pressure for the first goal. It’s a minimum requirement in that system for the lone striker to be good at retaining possession. He simply has to do better than that…
 

 

[Sooper Steve's shin]

6 hours ago, kingfox said:

I’ve mentioned this word a few times over the past few season’s...naive.

 

We are one of the most naive teams in the league, the capability to capitulate in an instant is shocking.

 

Unsurprisingly they bullied us, did the same exact job on us than last season, West Ham are defensively organised, plus when they get it forward they are slick.

 

What is our pattern of play when we come up against the likes of West Ham? I just don’t know. 
 

The team just shows naivety throughout and we end up getting spanked...again.

That’s one area I think Rodgers has got things wrong. He likes an exciting, high energy team but that generally means younger players - that has come at the expense of a bit of nous and game management in key areas (particularly midfield). There was an interview with Nigel Pearson or one of his scouts/analysts where they were talking about attributes needed within the team. Experience in the right places was key - hence the signings of the likes of Huth, Wasilewski and Cambiasso. We have it at either end with Kasper and Vardy, but yesterday was crying out for someone in the middle of the park to take hold of the game and get people in order. 
I said the same after several games in tail end of 19/20 (including B*urnemouth) and when we wobbled last season. In mitigation, Rodgers has not been helped by the long term injury to Wes Morgan during his time or Evans/Bertrand/Vestergaard all being out yesterday. Any of them would have improved the defence. But we’ve needed someone to lead in midfield for far too long - Ndidi and Tielemans are excellent, but our sub options (typically Choudhury, Mendy, Praet) don’t add that authority which is sometimes needed. 

[Deeg67]

In the current alignment having CBs who are no good with distribution (along with a keeper who’s execrable at it of course) is a huge problem.  As smudgerfox notes, you don’t even really need to press because you want those three guys in possession.  They offer nothing going forward and will eventually give the ball away when they do try and initiate.

 

Its crystal clear what the idea is with this formation.  Ricardo basically plays as a winger until we’re counterattacked, and then races back in desperation, because he’s the only one assigned to providing width on the right.  It’s equally clear that it’s not working.  Yes, the defense is a mess but we’re utterly punchless going forward.

 

Short of signing a real right winger there aren’t a lot of good options here.  Trying Daka and Kelechi as a two up top would probably be the best bet, but Vardy would never allow that.

[Sooper Steve's shin]

4 hours ago, jim5000 said:

We also never pass it passed the nearest teammate, the ball is never switched. If Ricardo wants to get it to Barnes, it ponders through Amartey Soyuncu, maybe back and forward to Tielemans before getting to Barnes. No player was spraying the ball about whereas West Ham were quite happy to hit cross field passes, and pass to the second or third man to add a bit of dynamism to their play.

 

Tielemans was annonymous to the defenders, marked out of the game and never showing it for and our constand playing out of the back played right into their hands. Amartey did well, but he should not be our player with the most passes at the end of a match, and we should not be using him to dictate the tempo of the game.

I didn’t understand this part of our tactics 10 mins in and still not at the end of the 90. Nobody was showing for Soyuncu and Amartey - we weren’t making the usual shapes to knock into Tielemans/Ndidi or a fullback and then push out to Barnes or start attacks that way. Pereira effectively played right wing (he was nowhere for their first goal), Tielemans also pushed up unusually high when our defenders were in possession. I’m sure it was a tactic, I’m just not sure what it was (but it clearly didn’t work). 

[Deeg67]

Amartey and Cags first half highlight reel:

 

Edited 24 August 2021 by Deeg67

[Metal Lover]

3 hours ago, jim5000 said:

Apart from replacing the two central defenders.... And the left back....

Yeah that would be nice. But look at the options right now. 

[jmono84]

3 hours ago, Genesis1 said:

The thing that bothers me is up until there first goal and sending off they certainly didn't look as good as the 3-0 drumming we took last season. It just looked like we had no spine, no want to and I think Johnny Evans bollocking people left, right and centre is a big miss.

The only plus is maybe we'll pull our finger out and attempt to get a right winger.

It was almost a carbon copy for me.

 

We look to control the game and bang out of no where because of a poor touch of a simple direct pass we’re behind.

 

We concede so easily against doggo teams like west ham and I don’t blame the CB’s at the back either. What was their options to pass to? Soyuncu made a great pass to Vardys feet getting past 2 of their lines and he inexplicably lays it off to Rice!

 

Vardy does not suit in games like this, Nacho gets that ball and turns and we’re away. We had no focal point up front whatsoever!

 

BR got it completely wrong tonight with his team selection yet again. I don’t know what the dumb shit sees?

[Claudio Fannieri]

Awful display, not one player came out with any credit, when we are bad, we are truly honking, I have to disagree with Rodgers post match, i thought we showed very little fight and were very fortunate to only end up conceding 4. We were heinous with 11 but the lack of fight once Perez saw red was the most disappointing aspect of the night for me. 
 

As for Rodgers not sure what he was watching tonight, we desperately needed energy and some fight on the pitch for the 2nd half,  why he persisted with Madders who is weak as piss at the best of times and despite his goal Tielemans stank the place out, we needed Soumare and KDH on for the 2nd half to give us tempo and an opportunity to get at them and try to wrestle back some control of the midfield. 
 

Bad day for the whole team and manager today and they really need to come out fighting on Saturday with a positive response, performance and result against Norwich. 

[Bptiger]

I think we need a extra midfielder, because we never seem to have anyone to pass to , but at the end of the day u can’t go forward when u can only pass the ball sideways or backwards

[Duquesne Whistle]

5 hours ago, HankMarvin said:

On a positive note 

we are leading a table 

This highlights the problem. Us, Man City have two players on that list, Chelsea three. Chelsea play the ball around the back but often find Jorginho as a midfield outlet for the ball forward. Man City do the same, but stretch teams by playing the ball out quickly to the full back (or a midfielder, when Cancelo is roaming), which stretches the opposition, creating space. Our two players are centre backs passing it 10 yards sideways (and usually backwards) very slowly in the middle of the pitch.

Too easy to defend against. 

Edited 24 August 2021 by Duquesne Whistle

[CosbehFox]

4 hours ago, jim5000 said:

Amartey was better than Soyuncu tonight, he didn't give away two goals.

He was completely the wrong side of Antonio for the fourth 

[FoxyLeon]

12 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

He was completely the wrong side of Antonio for the fourth 

 

Let's blame Amartey, for a goal we conceded, when the game was dead.

 

Amartey was our best player in the back 4 tonight.

The guy comes in, tries his best, and never lets us down.

 

He was surrounded by utter crap all around him tonight, and he, from what I saw, had a bit of character about him to actually try and progress us with the ball when we were 2-0 down, whilst Ndid/Tielemans/Maddison stood around watching. 

[gerblod]

8 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Bad, but when you are missing Evans, Fofana, Vesterguard, Bertrand and a Castange not match fit. Then have to play 60 minutes with 10 men, it going to be hardworking.

 

Take 5 first team defenders out of any team in the PL and it going to be difficult. 

Why do you believe Bertrand and Castagne would have made such a difference? Ricardo and Thomas performed well enough considering the absence of any dynamism and creativity in defence.

Amartey has no confidence in himself in carrying the ball forward. Given the choice he will always pass across or back - that pattern became clear almost immediately. West Ham pressed high and pinned the back four down straightaway.

He isn't good enough to start in a team with aspirations of a top half Premier position. He's being asked too much of. I believe Castagne would have done better in his place. At a pinch maybe even Choudhury.

For all the recruitment done, it's apparent City are still paper-thin at the back. Evans may never be able to play at the same level again.

For all the genuine ability of Tielemans and N'Didi, there's something missing in that area of the pitch. Was Soumare supposed to be an answer to that? I've read the word 'bullied' frequently in comments last night - 'herded' is also apt. We needed a scrapper - someone to disrupt the press, someone who wouldn't be bullied.

Perez. I hope that was a moment of anger and frustration. Perhaps he thought injuring Fornals might swing the game! His continued first-choice inclusion reflects something conservative in Rodger's personality. There's no room in a team seeking a high placing for a makeweight with pretensions. He has moments but he doesn't make moments.

Rodgers. Moyes demonstrated that the dubious accolade of 'Best British Manager is now his. Before the match started he'd sussed out there'd be no surprises from Rodgers. 

Why take off Barnes - he'd created problems when the opportunities arose? Why wait until a quarter of an hour remaining  to make significant changes?

We desperately need James Justin back, but, until he and Fofana are fit again, Rodgers has to start finding answers to obvious problems. He's a terrific manager in many ways but he has awful blind spots.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Danny Clender]

For me, it was the disappointment in wasting time getting excited we were going to draw 2-2 after Tielemans bagged. 

That hope was duly extinguished and the final scoreline justifies how poor the whole team played and connected. 

 

Overall though what's most disappointing is, everyone knows we have great options within the squad, yet we're not utilising them. 

That starting 11, well before kick off, was being questioned and the answers were delivered, well before Perez walked. 

 

Maddison, he isn't built for games like that, the games aren't slow enough for him anymore and every team knows it. 

Perez, zero excuses, I never feel a player would put in a career ending tackle deliberately, but whether he meant it or not, he showed truly abysmal play and skill to do that. He shouldn't start for us again until he finds his game and ability and that feels like never now. 

Soyuncu, there's nothing new from last night, we've always known that he always struggles without a 'General' next to him, that's his weakness, but we all know he has tremendous ability, so unlike Perez, Soy can be excused. 

 

Purely from the people's perspective that pointed out this result throughout last week, Rodgers deserves the flack.

With our defence as it is, last night was a selection mistake.