West Ham United 4-1 Leicester City - Post Match Thread

[splinterdream]

I've seen a lot of players picked out for blame for last night, it was the defense, it was forward line not tracking back, but I think the player we needed to change yesterday was Wilf.

This is no criticism of him, he is amazing at breaking down play and recirculating it but what use is that when a team sits back and let's us have the ball, you need a player who can play with youri and create from the defense to the final third where players like madders, Barnes, perez (hopefully our new RW) can create chances, and trouble with will is he isn't a great carrier of the ball imo. I thought this is what Soumare was for, anyway that's what is be looking at, youri can't do it on his own when our full backs are put under pressure 

[adejo92]

It wasn't so much the result that was disappointing but more the performance. West Ham are a very good team and they will cause much better teams than us problems this season.

 

For us, We have been massively unlucky with injuries, especially in defence which is the back bone of any successful team. Evans will be back very soon, and he'll massively strengthen our back line with either Soyunchu or Vestergaard. I think both of the latter will then be pushed aside upon Fofana's return.

 

Last nights match was just one to forget but certainly lot's for BR and the team to work on for the rest of the season. 

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, adejo92 said:

It wasn't so much the result that was disappointing but more the performance. West Ham are a very good team and they will cause much better teams than us problems this season.

 

For us, We have been massively unlucky with injuries, especially in defence which is the back bone of any successful team. Evans will be back very soon, and he'll massively strengthen our back line with either Soyunchu or Vestergaard. I think both of the latter will then be pushed aside upon Fofana's return.

 

Last nights match was just one to forget but certainly lot's for BR and the team to work on for the rest of the season. 

...I wonder if Tarkowski is an option at this moment!!!

This is his final season with his contract and we were probably looking to pick him up on a free next summer. With the likelihood of Evans not being able to come back we do need a seasoned level headed professional who can hold the Backline and the team together.

  We need to put this in place now as we are then gambling on the recovery of players where we cannot guarantee they will be back at their brilliant best and we hamper ourselves if we intend to work in the January window. We need to be brave in this instance, no point sitting back and hoping for the best.

[Adrian]

Apparently Antonio is playing for Miami dolphins next week...

[gerblod]

14 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Thomas is a unexperienced player playing only he's 3rd or 4th game in front of a fans, he never experience crowd of 60k home fans, so yes I think a old head in Bertrand would have been useful. When everyone is fit his more than likely 3rd of 4th choice left back behind Bertrand, Justin, Castange. 

What do you expect of our 5th choice CB, he would'nt be anywhere near the starting 11 if Evans, Fofana, Vesterguard are fit.

Castagne isn't match fit and Choudhury has never played as a CB. 

Are you for really we have Evan, Fofana, Vestiguard, Justin and Bertrand unavailable, 5 first team defenders 

Soumare has only just joined the club, new country, new league, his time will come.

Barnes probably because he's only just come back form a major injury 

Moyes PL career win %---- 39%, no major trophies 

Rodgers PL career win%---44%, FA Cup.

Winning a couple of battles doesn't mean you have won the war.

Yes, I'm for real. Though I'll assume you're asking me if I'm serious. I wouldn't have written my reply if I wasn't serious. I wouldn't be jesting about Monday's débâcle. 

Thomas is anything but inexperienced. He stepped up to the task he was given more than adequately. He performed oustandingly in the Cup - in front of a significant number of fans in the largest stadium in England. Justin will be first choice if he returns successfully from his rehabilitation. Like some other posters on this forum afficted with tunnel-vision you see only Thomas's youth rather than his ability.

I don't expect anything more of Daniel Amartey than he's able to give. I was merely stating what I saw and making the point that, if City are to sustain a top seven position then players of his standard are best as subs. The injury situation has forced BR to start him. He did manage at one point to pass forward but he's risk averse and that's understandable and acceptable in these circumstances.

Castagne is deemed 'match-fit' by being on the bench. He might be a little bit more ring-rusty than his colleagues are but not by much. 

As I stated Evans might not ever return to full fitness and effectiveness. Vestagaard isn't yet bedded into the team and Fofana and Söyüncü don't operate well when Evans isn't present. Bertrand may have played in central defence - I don't know but Söyüncü  is first pick on the left of central defence. You're the stats guy - you tell me if Bertrand is capable of playing in Evans or Wes's position.

Justin I rate very highly. I think he could do an outfield job anywhere on the pitch.

If Soumare is on the bench then he's considered ready to do a job. You don't get time to adapt in the Premier. It's a dog-eat-dog situation and he will only have limited opportunities to prove his worth.

Maybe you're right about Barnes, but sometimes (often even) I find Rodger's match player tactics confusing. 

Yes, Rodgers has won a trophy and Moyes hasn't. But I wonder how good West Ham could be under Moyes if they had the management City have. He wasn't very wise to take on the poisoned chalice of United but he appears to be making a damn good job at that Colosseum of a ground and the support they enjoy is huge - they've now superseded Arsenal as the third London club and may yet supersede Spurs.  

 

[coolhandfox]

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

Yes, I'm for real. Though I'll assume you're asking me if I'm serious. I wouldn't have written my reply if I wasn't serious. I wouldn't be jesting about Monday's débâcle.

Bit of a strange thing to write, why would you assume that fro what I wrote? Never ASSUME… it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

Thomas is anything but inexperienced. He stepped up to the task he was given more than adequately. He performed oustandingly in the Cup - in front of a significant number of fans in the largest stadium in England. Justin will be first choice if he returns successfully from his rehabilitation.

So who more experainced the Thomas with 31 appearance or Bertrand with 403 first team appearance? Bertrand will be first choice this season. 

 

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

Like some other posters on this forum afficted with tunnel-vision you see only Thomas's youth rather than his ability.

Your assuming again, Luke Thomas will hopefully be our fit choice LB or a long time as he develops further, but at the moment there are better players at the club in that position in my view. 

 

 

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

Castagne is deemed 'match-fit' by being on the bench. He might be a little bit more ring-rusty than his colleagues are but not by much. 

No he's not, you get match fit by playing match, hence the term match fit. He played no pre-season game and has not played since the 12 of June.   

 

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

If Soumare is on the bench then he's considered ready to do a job. You don't get time to adapt in the Premier. It's a dog-eat-dog situation and he will only have limited opportunities to prove his worth.

We have one of the best examples of a player need time to adapt to the PL, Jamie Vardy it took him a season to find he's feet

 

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

Maybe you're right about Barnes, but sometimes (often even) I find Rodger's match player tactics confusing. 

Yes, Rodgers has won a trophy and Moyes hasn't. But I wonder how good West Ham could be under Moyes if they had the management City have. He wasn't very wise to take on the poisoned chalice of United but he appears to be making a damn good job at that Colosseum of a ground and the support they enjoy is huge -

He's a great manager, but personal I prefer Rodgers, Moyes was also relegated at Sunderland, something that Rodgers has never done. 

 

5 hours ago, gerblod said:

 

they've now superseded Arsenal as the third London club and may yet supersede Spurs.  

 

We shall see they have finsh above them once in about 20 years 

[Hoopla10]

6 hours ago, gerblod said:

a damn good job at that Colosseum of a ground and the support they enjoy is huge - they've now superseded Arsenal as the third London club and may yet supersede Spurs.  

Moyes is a good manager but a tad one dimensional. WH are in that nice situation of coming-up, they're not a regular top 6 team so haven't really had to deal with Europe and teams below them in the league are yet to just shut-up shop and park the bus against them. They also have very little depth. Antonio or Soucek get injured then they'll struggle. Arsenal are in a mess but have the resources to turn it around if they had better management. It's hard to say that WH has one half good season (usually a mid-table team) and they've superseded a club like Arsenal. May yet supersede Spurs? "May" is doing an awful lot of work there. 

Personally I can't stand WH fans, it wasn't that long ago they were smashing up that colosseum of a ground.

[Silver surfer 1]

Yes the back line is weakened for us but I don’t think they were helped by our midfield .  Too much attention been aimed at the back line , but if you look at that game youri and wilf were bullied off the ball .  We should have gone with soumare in midfield with youri and wilf in the middle of the park .  Our guys up front were squeezed because our midfield could get a grip .  Brendans weak nativity being exposed again .  

[SpacedX]

On 24/08/2021 at 08:50, Hoopla10 said:

And my feelings for Maddison are sliding in the same direction. I genuinely wonder if we'd be better benching him and pushing Tilly slightly forward into that 10 role so we can play two strikes (Daka/Vardy, Nacho/Vardy or Daka/Nacho). 

 

Absolutely no. Do you not recall the debacle against Slavia Prague in which Youri was pushed up into a more advanced role? The guy is not a number 10 - that's not his game, he's a creative midfielder - and as was astutely pointed out on here, you can't play Youri Tielemans higher because there's no Youri Tielemans operating behind him. Alongside N'did in the double pivot, the partnership is key to winning the ball and supporting transition. He's a deep lying playmaker that's able to progress the ball through both passing and dribbling.  In build-up play, he excels at switching play and an intrinsic outlet in linking the defence to the attack through minimal touches and his vision and intelligence.

 

An in-form Maddison is not only the best option at No.10 but amongst the best in the league. He's been sub-par recently, but then so have many of our starting 11. In spite of this, the guy can still turn a game in a few seconds of inspired brilliance. He is an asset to retain, develop and we will get the best out of him. The only reason to bench him would be fitness - or misbehaviour which would likely see him dropped. 

[volpeazzurro]

24 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Absolutely no. Do you not recall the debacle against Slavia Prague in which Youri was pushed up into a more advanced role? The guy is not a number 10 - that's not his game, he's a creative midfielder - and as was astutely pointed out on here, you can't play Youri Tielemans higher because there's no Youri Tielemans operating behind him. Alongside N'did in the double pivot, the partnership is key to winning the ball and supporting transition. He's a deep lying playmaker that's able to progress the ball through both passing and dribbling.  In build-up play, he excels at switching play and an intrinsic outlet in linking the defence to the attack through minimal touches and his vision and intelligence.

 

An in-form Maddison is not only the best option at No.10 but amongst the best in the league. He's been sub-par recently, but then so have many of our starting 11. In spite of this, the guy can still turn a game in a few seconds of inspired brilliance. He is an asset to retain, develop and we will get the best out of him. The only reason to bench him would be fitness - or misbehaviour which would likely see him dropped. 

Whilst I understand your point, there's not always a need for a Maddison 10 type player. I'd personally go 433 and assuming Vestergaard would still be injured:

 

Schmeichel 

Ricardo Armarty Soyuncu Bertrand 

Soumare Tielemans Ndidi 

Daka Iheanacho Barnes 

 

There's good protection there for the defence and cover for Ricardo to overlap.

The front three would be a handful for any defence. Vardy, Maddison and KDH as impact subs through fatigue or change of tactics would be incredible. There's enough talent there to attack and dictate games instead of any side to side let's just try not to lose possession football. 

[SpacedX]

7 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Whilst I understand your point, there's not always a need for a Maddison 10 type player. I'd personally go 433 and assuming Vestergaard would still be injured:

 

Schmeichel 

Ricardo Armarty Soyuncu Bertrand 

Soumare Tielemans Ndidi 

Daka Iheanacho Barnes 

 

There's good protection there for the defence and cover for Ricardo to overlap.

The front three would be a handful for any defence. Vardy, Maddison and KDH as impact subs through fatigue or change of tactics would be incredible. There's enough talent there to attack and dictate games instead of any side to side let's just try not to lose possession football. 

Point well made. 

[volpeazzurro]

5 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Point well made. 

Neither was it in any way a slight on Maddison, albeit he's a little out of form at the moment and possibly even carrying an injury. It perhaps wouldn't hurt for a few games for him to start from the bench anyway to help ease any hip problems. 

[murphy]

There is a lot of criticism for Rodgers for not learning from previous West Ham games.  I think he has certain footballing principles and would believe that instead of just matching up against opponents in terms of physicality and thereby possibly weakening ourselves in the process, we should be able to apply our own strengths and qualities upon the opposition.

 

Didn't quite work out that way.

[ClaphamFox]

It has been claimed in some quarters (I can't verify it) that the players were originally scheduled a rest day yesterday but were called in for extra training instead. Rodgers tends not to criticise his players to the media, but he must have been privately fuming about Monday night's performance.

[drumbeat]

20 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I think your observation is bang on. Their tactical discipline as well was superb; the game was won without the ball by that front three. 

 

Seems bitter now but I can't see how West Ham sustain that week in and week out. Particularly with Europa League football. When they are like that, you've gotta be clever and patient. They chewed us up and put us in a washing machine. 

I think that observation is bang on too! 

 

I obviously don't watch WH week to week so I'd be interested to know how they play as a rule and what sort of changes they made to their style against us. They certainly knew how to stifle and frustrate, and we - in turn - again seemed to know f-all about what to do about it!

 

Reading a remark from a WH fan (Beeb or Guardian comments, I forget which) they think they'll struggle with squad depth. They've a decent starting 11 when fit and fighting but it gets a bit iffy when you scratch the surface (sound familiar?) Reading between the lines, they'll need a bit of luck with (lack of) injuries and fitness to maintain that tempo throughout the season.

[SuperMike]

2 hours ago, Silver surfer 1 said:

Yes the back line is  Brendans weak nativity being exposed again .  

Yup! West Ham must've thought it was Christmas.

[drumbeat]

..and Brendan doesn't like his nativity being exposed. Very unchristian. 

[Guest Col city fan]

You’ll go a long way to see a worse defensive display than that all season 

Antonio and Dawson just not being picked up defensively for headers (on another day we could have conceded 6/7), Wilf having one of his worst games in a City shirt, Tielemans missing, Vardy hardly having a touch, Perez being reckless

The list goes on

Re the back four, I anticipate if we have to field the same 4 for some time, we’ll leak goals like a sieve.

Norwich might not be a problem cos I think we’ll outscore them but after that makes me shudder.
I said in the transfer thread we needed to sign another CB, which we did. Let’s hope he’s not out too much longer.

[Duquesne Whistle]

2 hours ago, drumbeat said:

..and Brendan doesn't like his nativity being exposed. Very unchristian. 

Damn, that'll teach me to read the whole page...

Edited 25 August 2021 by Duquesne Whistle

[jmono84]

West Ham shut up shop.

 

We gave them 2 goals to make it 2 nil.

 

We got a man sent off.

 

We need to be a lot more intelligent against a team as physical and deep as this. BR played right into their hands but even then it took up until the 60th min or whatever it was for them to go 2-0 due to another massive mistake.

 

Game was all about how awful we were all West Ham had to do was turn up and put pressure on our players when we went into their half and we had no forward players who is good playing with their back to goal. I have no idea what BR’s plan was to attack in that game.

[gerblod]

On 25/08/2021 at 08:07, coolhandfox said:

Bit of a strange thing to write, why would you assume that fro what I wrote? Never ASSUME… it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

So who more experainced the Thomas with 31 appearance or Bertrand with 403 first team appearance? Bertrand will be first choice this season. 

 

Your assuming again, Luke Thomas will hopefully be our fit choice LB or a long time as he develops further, but at the moment there are better players at the club in that position in my view. 

 

No he's not, you get match fit by playing match, hence the term match fit. He played no pre-season game and has not played since the 12 of June.   

 

We have one of the best examples of a player need time to adapt to the PL, Jamie Vardy it took him a season to find he's feet

 

He's a great manager, but personal I prefer Rodgers, Moyes was also relegated at Sunderland, something that Rodgers has never done. 

 

We shall see they have finsh above them once in about 20 years 

Had you phrased your post more accurately I wouldn't have to assume anything - using "really" when you meant "real" (I assume) meant that your meaning was unclear. And why not forget the twee little word play - I'm not impressed by it and I doubt others are. I'm no 'ass' and neither are you.

 

Using appearances as the arbiter for effectiveness is a simplistic way of assessing either players relative effectiveness. Thomas was thrown in at the deep end and has excelled more than just survived. Were I in Rodger's shoes, I would be pleased to have Bertrand in the squad, but wary of suppressing Thomas's development by relegating him to some arbitrary pecking order. I believe he thrives on being given responsibility and receiving approval - like any young person. His progression must be nurtured carefully. He's a prized asset, or should be. You use the words "better players at the club" but in what way better? You opinionate but fail to quantify.

 

I'll stand by my assertion about Castagne. If he's on the bench then he's deemed a potential substitute and therefore match-fit. For how long is the only variable assessment.

 

I think Vardy is a poor comparator of any argument. He was 'born ready' and made a huge leap of adjustment in transitioning from non-league to league football. Soumare has a proven pedigree in playing in the highest echelons of French football and representing the French national U-20 side - one of the elite footballing nations. Would we, the supporters, and the Club be expecting too much of him if he doesn't make a speedy adaptation to Premier football? French football isn't Spanish or Italian in nature - which is why I suspect French, Dutch and Belgian players appear to flourish here.

 

As for Moyes and West Ham, whether or not they establish long-term suzerainty over Arsenal and Spurs rests on many indeterminate factors. They've been trapped in that bog where Newcastle, Everton and Leeds are also enmired - huge and hugely loyal support unrewarded through various negative factors.

 

But what's important is always the next game and, following that, where a team finishes at season's end. Rodgers has flourished here because of the manner in which the Sris have developed personally as club owners and how they've developed the Club. Had people like Sullivan and Gold owned Leicester City, I wonder just where we'd be. 

[Lcfc098]

On 23/08/2021 at 22:12, Lcfc098 said: