Post Villa game Vote in or sack for Rodgers

[when_you're_smiling]

14 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Finance is a big help but no guarantee of success. Liverpool have won one title since the prem inception, Man united won nothing since Fergie left , Tottenham won nothing since 1999. Everton spend more than us each season , won nothing. You can bet Top and the owners are in no way thinking this is were our level should be. They vowed when they bought the club to have us regular top six. Small mindedness is not the way forward and neither is the acceptance of the season we are having given the players we have.

Yep. And, and still all of those you have mentioned bar Everton (who can’t even protest properly) have continued to be by and large in and around the top six with the money they’ve spent, which proves the point @Aus Fox is making.

 

You can have the odd success without money of course. If you think you can do it without a single blip for a consistent period without comparative finance then you’re delusional.

[deep blue]

1 hour ago, oadby.fox said:

Exactly, that’s without even mentioning the comparative quality of the squad back then. I remember seeing us lose back then when we might’ve deserved a point or the win, these days we are beaten thoroughly. There’s barely any resistance to losing individual set pieces let alone the match overall. In contrast to the “great escape”, the feeling with this season is that we have often been lucky to win on the occasions that we have.

 

We get bullied too easily when other teams want it more and that’s something which seems to be systemic now and also unforgivable over a prolonged period at the highest level.

Spot on.

[BoyJones]

4 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

I still can’t fathom why people get so upset about the overachieving comment - we clearly overachieved for 2 season, in finishing 5th and winning the FA Cup. 
Money is a huge factor in our game like it or not, it’s a fact. We don’t have the budget of the top 6 clubs, we don’t even have the budget of Everton or Villa without selling our best players. To consistently be challenging at the top you need to consistently be investing 100s of millions - we can’t do that. 
We have enough financial clout not to be in the situation we find ourselves in? What situation is that? Mid table in the PL, top of the Europa League group and 1/4 final of the league cup / given - it’s not been our greatest season, but it’s not nearly as dire as some make out, and we’re about where we should be now financially.

Mate you’re talking too much sense. The majority on here want all teams to let us walk all over them because we’re now some sort of super power. 
 

The patience and understanding have long gone. Immediate and sustained success is the mantra now from all the keyboard warriors on here. Anything less and it’s a witch hunt. 
 

We’re having an indifferent season, a bit like the MON days, four bog standard league seasons with plenty of crap performances, but 25 years ago fans weren’t so judgemental and accepted sometimes things go wrong. 
 

If you lot celebrate BR getting the sack, it’ll just confirm we have some of the stupidest fans in the league. 

[Vazman]

23 minutes ago, BoyJones said:

Mate you’re talking too much sense. The majority on here want all teams to let us walk all over them because we’re now some sort of super power. 
 

The patience and understanding have long gone. Immediate and sustained success is the mantra now from all the keyboard warriors on here. Anything less and it’s a witch hunt. 
 

We’re having an indifferent season, a bit like the MON days, four bog standard league seasons with plenty of crap performances, but 25 years ago fans weren’t so judgemental and accepted sometimes things go wrong. 
 

If you lot celebrate BR getting the sack, it’ll just confirm we have some of the stupidest fans in the league. 

Granted some talk on here is OTT, however I think the point most are making is its us who are allowing teams to walk all over us, it's not about winning every game it's about improving on some of the glaring errors that continue week in week out, and improving, win draw or lose. 

 

I'd love him to turn it round and at least improve some of the persistent errors, and want him to stay to do just that, but it's not looking great for a team that clearly has ambition and rightly so.

 

The Keyboard Warrior bit, and stupidest fans bit, wasn't needed either, everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, rightly or wrongly.

[MPH]

7 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

I still can’t fathom why people get so upset about the overachieving comment - we clearly overachieved for 2 season, in finishing 5th and winning the FA Cup. 
Money is a huge factor in our game like it or not, it’s a fact. We don’t have the budget of the top 6 clubs, we don’t even have the budget of Everton or Villa without selling our best players. To consistently be challenging at the top you need to consistently be investing 100s of millions - we can’t do that. 
We have enough financial clout not to be in the situation we find ourselves in? What situation is that? Mid table in the PL, top of the Europa League group and 1/4 final of the league cup / given - it’s not been our greatest season, but it’s not nearly as dire as some make out, and we’re about where we should be now financially.

firstly I wouldn’t say that winning the FA cup is an overachievement. Wimbledon have won the FA cup, Coventry have done both from League positions much worse than ours. Many others too.

 

and with regards to saying 5th is an overachievement.. for who? And what I mean is we have had some excellent players at our disposal some of whom are being coveted by some top top clubs

 

for me the problem with saying we have overachieved isn’t anything to do with our club size or even the quality of our players, the problem is that it reduces the ceiling of potential we want our players to aim for.. it lowers the bar for what they should aim

for. For me it implies that the turgid football we have been served recently is somewhat acceptable..

[Dahnsouff]

4 hours ago, MPH said:

firstly I wouldn’t say that winning the FA cup is an overachievement. Wimbledon have won the FA cup, Coventry have done both from League positions much worse than ours. Many others too.

 

and with regards to saying 5th is an overachievement.. for who? And what I mean is we have had some excellent players at our disposal some of whom are being coveted by some top top clubs

 

for me the problem with saying we have overachieved isn’t anything to do with our club size or even the quality of our players, the problem is that it reduces the ceiling of potential we want our players to aim for.. it lowers the bar for what they should aim

for. For me it implies that the turgid football we have been served recently is somewhat acceptable..

I tend to share @Aus Fox view on this. Money is nigh on everything in top level football, the fact with such a small financial footprint, we managed to get fifth twice, win the FA Cup, be doing well in the Europa and domestic cup, is testament to the club and how it operates.

 

For worse, money has become what makes and breaks the success in this and most top leagues, that’s just a fact and no romantic notions disrupt this, except the occasional outlier, and in fact the last best outlier, our title win, has subtly and irrevocably changed the game. It will not be allowed to occur again without alternate extenuating circumstances.

 

Would tend to reject the Wimbledon / Coventry, FA Cup comment as it was from a different era.

 

[Aus Fox]

5 hours ago, MPH said:

firstly I wouldn’t say that winning the FA cup is an overachievement. Wimbledon have won the FA cup, Coventry have done both from League positions much worse than ours. Many others too.

 

and with regards to saying 5th is an overachievement.. for who? And what I mean is we have had some excellent players at our disposal some of whom are being coveted by some top top clubs

 

for me the problem with saying we have overachieved isn’t anything to do with our club size or even the quality of our players, the problem is that it reduces the ceiling of potential we want our players to aim for.. it lowers the bar for what they should aim

for. For me it implies that the turgid football we have been served recently is somewhat acceptable..

That fact that since the Premier League began only 2 other teams from outside the big money 6 have won the FA Cup says it was an over achievement, and will remain so for any team outside the top 6. When you take into consideration one of those teams Portsmouth- bankrupted themselves trying to achieve that success. They spent ridiculous amounts of money that season and the one before and resulted in League Two and almost out of business.

 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

9 hours ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Yep. And, and still all of those you have mentioned bar Everton (who can’t even protest properly) have continued to be by and large in and around the top six with the money they’ve spent, which proves the point @Aus Fox is making.

 

You can have the odd success without money of course. If you think you can do it without a single blip for a consistent period without comparative finance then you’re delusional.

But we DO have comparative finance to be a top six side on a regular basis. you don't have several players on 100 grand plus a week and a manager as one of the highest paid in the league if you don't have the money. A hundred million quid spent on a training ground and lord knows how much on a ground extension tells a different story.  No one is saying we compete financially with the likes of Man united Man city etc  but we have more than enough money to be a top six side. 

[oadby.fox]

8 hours ago, BoyJones said:

Mate you’re talking too much sense. The majority on here want all teams to let us walk all over them because we’re now some sort of super power. 
 

The patience and understanding have long gone. Immediate and sustained success is the mantra now from all the keyboard warriors on here. Anything less and it’s a witch hunt. 
 

We’re having an indifferent season, a bit like the MON days, four bog standard league seasons with plenty of crap performances, but 25 years ago fans weren’t so judgemental and accepted sometimes things go wrong. 
 

If you lot celebrate BR getting the sack, it’ll just confirm we have some of the stupidest fans in the league. 

Whilst there might be some fans out there who are “Top 4 or nothing”, I’d like to think that most fans have a somewhat more realistic expectation of the team and even recognise that top sides will often have off-years. Evidence of this is that even though we were in the Top 4 for the majority of the past two seasons, no one was calling for BR’s head when he allowed the team to capitulate like he did which led to us finishing outside of it on both occasions. 

 

For me, money only has a tendency in football (and in life) to improve quality but it’s not necessary and sufficient for quality that a lot of money is spent. I’m sure that a lot of money was spent on Boris Johnson’s education but he’s not exactly the smartest man in the UK. More relevantly, clubs might go and spend £70m on a Pepe but just because they’ve spent that, it doesn’t mean they should therefore be outperforming us - in fact, some of the better performers in this current Arsenal side were less expensive! Yes, more money might allow you to have your pick most of the time, but you still have to get that pick right and there are also good enough players out there to get a job done to a certain level e.g you don’t need to spend £100m a season on centre-backs just to successfully defend set pieces - what we have available to us should be enough. 

I think the frustration from most fans isn’t due to an entitlement mentality which has arisen from unrealistic expectations. The frustration is from the manageable expectations that we as a club (and the owners) have set ourselves and the perennial failure to address key problems in the way we play the game. If the second half of the last two seasons is really “our level” as some of the cynics (and BR) seem to suggest, then doesn't that mean that our squad is only possibly good enough to carry us to safety each year? Surely that is an undervaluation of the team and players we have at our disposal. A lot of these players were promising when we originally signed them and have gone onto improve and develop since then, they don’t just turn into potential Newcastle benchwarmers over night. I’ve not said “BR out” explicitly yet but if he doesn’t turn things around then I will get there. The form at the tail end of the last two seasons was objectively awful and an impartial spectator would agree with that observation. This year, we seem to have carried that form into the new season and we can’t shake it off. It’ll be worrying if we get to January and we are not well clear of 30pts and that’s something that I fear.

Edited 8 December 2021 by oadby.fox

[when_you're_smiling]

9 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

But we DO have comparative finance to be a top six side on a regular basis. you don't have several players on 100 grand plus a week and a manager as one of the highest paid in the league if you don't have the money. A hundred million quid spent on a training ground and lord knows how much on a ground extension tells a different story.  No one is saying we compete financially with the likes of Man united Man city etc  but we have more than enough money to be a top six side. 

Maybe to compete with the lower top six sides now and again but not to be consistently above them. At best we’ve only half the income of the lowest top six club in Arsenal.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/566666/premier-league-clubs-by-revenue/

We’ve a mid-table wage bill.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

 

May be wrong as not great with the complexities of finances, but understand the stadium/training ground has been bought via loans against future income. 

 

[Matt]

I called a few weeks ago we weren’t far away from people questioning player power, I’ve duly seen those comments over the last week or two.

 

Next step is people crying ‘Agenda!’, I’m quite surprised it’s not already been claimed long before now.

 

It’s the Puel situation reincarnated in so many ways, so many parallels can be drawn.

 

Edited 8 December 2021 by Matt

[Dusty]

31 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

But we DO have comparative finance to be a top six side on a regular basis. you don't have several players on 100 grand plus a week and a manager as one of the highest paid in the league if you don't have the money. A hundred million quid spent on a training ground and lord knows how much on a ground extension tells a different story.  No one is saying we compete financially with the likes of Man united Man city etc  but we have more than enough money to be a top six side. 

A lot of those things you describe are very similar to palace tho? I think they spend the same if not more than us on wages and they’re looking to build a new training centre. 
 

For our wage and transfer budget we definitely have been over achieving. We are miles behind the spend on wages that the top 6 are. We’re 9th in the league for wage expenditure with £55m, compare that to United who are on similar form to us this season and they’re spending £225m. It’s so difficult to keep up with teams like that. That said, the players at the club currently are easily better than where we are in the league. But I think that comes with us trying to challenge the top 6, sometimes the transfers won’t come off, or we’ll have injuries or we’ll be out of form for a bit struggle to catch up. When we can’t spend as much on squad depth we’re bound to have periods where we’re not as strong as the other top 6.

Edited 8 December 2021 by Dusty

[Fox92]

9 hours ago, BoyJones said:

Mate you’re talking too much sense. The majority on here want all teams to let us walk all over them because we’re now some sort of super power. 
 

The patience and understanding have long gone. Immediate and sustained success is the mantra now from all the keyboard warriors on here. Anything less and it’s a witch hunt. 
 

We’re having an indifferent season, a bit like the MON days, four bog standard league seasons with plenty of crap performances, but 25 years ago fans weren’t so judgemental and accepted sometimes things go wrong. 
 

If you lot celebrate BR getting the sack, it’ll just confirm we have some of the stupidest fans in the league. 

I don't want Rodgers getting sacked, and have called for him to get the time he has earnt/deserves, but there's no comparisons to 25 years ago.

 

MON was buying players from reserve sides and football league sides - Elliott, Lennon, Izzet, Savage etc - and making them good Premier League players. Nowadays we have so much at our disposal that we can go out and spend £30m on a 19 year old centre half from a French side. MON had a 100 year old stadium but now we've got a fairly new ground and £100m training ground. There's just no comparison.

 

Also fans probably were judgmental, and did moan, during those times but you didn't see it as much because there was no internet forum or social media. People won't remember the "crap performances" from 25 years ago but they remember the league cup wins and European runs. The same will happen with Rodgers with time, in 25 years people won't remember losing away at Villa or Bournemouth but will remember winning the FA Cup. That's how it goes with nostalgia; you remember the good parts only.

Edited 8 December 2021 by Fox92

[Vazman]

1 hour ago, Dahnsouff said:

I tend to share @Aus Fox view on this. Money is nigh on everything in top level football, the fact with such a small financial footprint, we managed to get fifth twice, win the FA Cup, be doing well in the Europa and domestic cup, is testament to the club and how it operates.

 

For worse, money has become what makes and breaks the success in this and most top leagues, that’s just a fact and no romantic notions disrupt this, except the occasional outlier, and in fact the last best outlier, our title win, has subtly and irrevocably changed the game. It will not be allowed to occur again without alternate extenuating circumstances.

 

Would tend to reject the Wimbledon / Coventry, FA Cup comment as it was from a different era.

 

What you say is in parts true, and has / is making it more impossible, difficult, to disrupt the financially better of teams. 

 

However it can be done, has been done, and will again, if there is no hope of it ever being done again, we should accept this super league and compete with teams based on finances, it's about attitude, ambition, hope and making the best of what you have better, the manager is paid extremely well, players are paid extremely well, with combined qualities mentioned above anything is possible, we as fans shouldn't just accept where we are at in terms of spending, it's a reason dont get me wrong, but in our case, at present, with our current team, hand on heart can you say our performances are because we overachieved, have too many injured players, and dont have enough money it's a reason, but not solely to blame. 

 

I agree with your point on different era's, but again not long ago we did something out of nowhere, and an FA Cup, proving no matter what era, it can and will be done again, by teams outside the perceived top 6 financially better off teams, if it's not possible then why bother at all come on the Foxes!.

 

 

[Dahnsouff]

18 minutes ago, Vazman said:

However it can be done, has been done, and will again, if there is no hope of it ever being done again, we should accept this super league and compete with teams based on finances, it's about attitude, ambition, hope and making the best of what you have better, the manager is paid extremely well, players are paid extremely well, with combined qualities mentioned above anything is possible, we as fans shouldn't just accept where we are at in terms of spending, it's a reason dont get me wrong, but in our case, at present, with our current team, hand on heart can you say our performances are because we overachieved, have too many injured players, and dont have enough money it's a reason, but not solely to blame. 

Yes, this is why I mentioned without extenuating circumstances, and the reason I think so is because the window of opportunity has narrowed further, even since our title win. Team with larger budgets were awoken by what other clubs could do, they are no longer so inattentive. I am not trying to suggest any level of luck or outside depreciation was required for our successes, we were on the ball to sieze our chances, but that the chances of such opportunity reduce even more.

 

In terms of the diverse overachieving term, I think he would have been better served by saying we were playing at a consistently high-level, thus implying it is not a level beyond our means, but is at a level at the higher end of our collective ability, a level which we should not naturally expect to continue indefinitely.

 

47 minutes ago, Vazman said:

...we should accept this super league and compete with teams based on finances...

Part of me does wonder how good this might have been  

 

But wherever we are  

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 hour ago, Dusty said:

A lot of those things you describe are very similar to palace tho? I think they spend the same if not more than us on wages and they’re looking to build a new training centre. 
 

For our wage and transfer budget we definitely have been over achieving. We are miles behind the spend on wages that the top 6 are. We’re 9th in the league for wage expenditure with £55m, compare that to United who are on similar form to us this season and they’re spending £225m. It’s so difficult to keep up with teams like that. That said, the players at the club currently are easily better than where we are in the league. But I think that comes with us trying to challenge the top 6, sometimes the transfers won’t come off, or we’ll have injuries or we’ll be out of form for a bit struggle to catch up. When we can’t spend as much on squad depth we’re bound to have periods where we’re not as strong as the other top 6.

Yeah good points , fair enough.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

2 hours ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Maybe to compete with the lower top six sides now and again but not to be consistently above them. At best we’ve only half the income of the lowest top six club in Arsenal.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/566666/premier-league-clubs-by-revenue/

We’ve a mid-table wage bill.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

 

May be wrong as not great with the complexities of finances, but understand the stadium/training ground has been bought via loans against future income. 

 

Yeah can't argue with that.

[MPH]

6 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

That fact that since the Premier League began only 2 other teams from outside the big money 6 have won the FA Cup says it was an over achievement, and will remain so for any team outside the top 6. When you take into consideration one of those teams Portsmouth- bankrupted themselves trying to achieve that success. They spent ridiculous amounts of money that season and the one before and resulted in League Two and almost out of business.

 

 

 

the beauty of the FA cup is that it’s all about who brings it on the day.  It’s a knock out competition. Face   A bad decision, a bad ricochet  or your players are having an off day in the league and you can pick up next game. You can’t do that with the FA cup. Besides, we beat 3 teams on our way to the final, Brighton, Man U who were not the best of teams last year and Southampton . We beat Chelsea in the final because we rode our luck at times other than an unstoppable goal  I don’t think their keeper had  a save to make? Our only shot on target? We Were dominated possession wise.

 

to call that overachieving is so wide of the mark.

 

 

and as  for finishing 5th, European qualification was the target at the  beginning of the season  from the owners and I don’t think it will go down well with them BR saying that  reaching that target was overachieving. In a way he’s undermined them.. and unless you’re going to split hairs on the difference between 5th and 6th  then what message is he sending out? “Don’t worry about the owners target, that’s unrealistic “

[MPH]

14 hours ago, BoyJones said:

Mate you’re talking too much sense. The majority on here want all teams to let us walk all over them because we’re now some sort of super power. 
 

The patience and understanding have long gone. Immediate and sustained success is the mantra now from all the keyboard warriors on here. Anything less and it’s a witch hunt. 
 

We’re having an indifferent season, a bit like the MON days, four bog standard league seasons with plenty of crap performances, but 25 years ago fans weren’t so judgemental and accepted sometimes things go wrong. 
 

If you lot celebrate BR getting the sack, it’ll just confirm we have some of the stupidest fans in the league. 

 

Nothing like a good bit of over exaggeration to try and make a point. 
 

No one is saying we are a  super power no one is saying we should finish higher than fifth  what people are saying is with the players  we had at our disposal and the way we played that’s the position we deserved.

[MPH]

7 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

I tend to share @Aus Fox view on this. Money is nigh on everything in top level football, the fact with such a small financial footprint, we managed to get fifth twice, win the FA Cup, be doing well in the Europa and domestic cup, is testament to the club and how it operates.

 

For worse, money has become what makes and breaks the success in this and most top leagues, that’s just a fact and no romantic notions disrupt this, except the occasional outlier, and in fact the last best outlier, our title win, has subtly and irrevocably changed the game. It will not be allowed to occur again without alternate extenuating circumstances.

 

Would tend to reject the Wimbledon / Coventry, FA Cup comment as it was from a different era.

 

See above 

 

All that money you talk about does, is it  encourages you to buy established players on inflated wages who maybe don’t even have a point to prove. We bought wisely we bought sensibly we bought plays with potential who had hunger and fire in their belly  who played very well, we are an extremely well managed and owned club. We  proved that there is another way than just spending.big money. Besides,  Quite a few of our players are being coveted  by top clubs so we may not have spent big money but we do have the  big players

[Lambert09]

Genuinely think if we had a director of football, Brendan would be great. If you leave the coaching to him but the personnel choices to someone else im sure he would be excellent. 

 

No ego attached to 'making certain signings work'.  Address things as they are needed... i.e new or additional defensive coach, not just a job for the boys. 

 

Of course Brendan wouldnt like it, but thats just it... Brendan's downfall is Brendan. If he didnt have such a ego, he would be one of the best in the world.   He has had 2 great seasons overall, but if he'd been a bit quicker to address key issues we may have picked up some of the easier points and been in absolute wonderland. 

 

 

Edited 8 December 2021 by Lambert09

[CosbehFox]

43 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

Genuinely think if we had a director of football

 

 

We do. His name is Jon Rudkin 

[Lambert09]

Just now, Cardiff_Fox said:

We do. His name is Jon Rudkin 

Wow can’t believe how embarrassing that post was haha. I don’t know how I removed that from my brain. I guess in my mind it doesn’t seem that way, maybe some of the blame lays outside of Brendan. 
 

I guess that’s what’s worse ... why aren’t more actions being made. Isn’t the point in a DOF to be more involved? I think it’s good that we don’t meddle that much but there needs to be something when the issues get this bad. 

[Guy]

9 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I don't want Rodgers getting sacked, and have called for him to get the time he has earnt/deserves, but there's no comparisons to 25 years ago.

 

MON was buying players from reserve sides and football league sides - Elliott, Lennon, Izzet, Savage etc - and making them good Premier League players. Nowadays we have so much at our disposal that we can go out and spend £30m on a 19 year old centre half from a French side. MON had a 100 year old stadium but now we've got a fairly new ground and £100m training ground. There's just no comparison.

 

Also fans probably were judgmental, and did moan, during those times but you didn't see it as much because there was no internet forum or social media. People won't remember the "crap performances" from 25 years ago but they remember the league cup wins and European runs. The same will happen with Rodgers with time, in 25 years people won't remember losing away at Villa or Bournemouth but will remember winning the FA Cup. That's how it goes with nostalgia; you remember the good parts only.

I remember people wanted MON out after the home defeat by Sheffield United in the Championship in late March during the 1996 play offs winning season under him (his first). Look how keeping him on turned out in the end - wow - very much for the best. I'm not sure the same thing will happen with Rodgers now though, it really is a job to say but I'll be bold enough to say that I'd be surprised if he wasn't here until the end of the season, even if we don't improve much between now and then and finish mid table. If we're flirting with relegation over Christmas/New Year period though then I think he'll be gone in Jnauary. It really is difficult to say but it appears that because of two consecutive 5th place finishes and winning the FA Cup that Top has more patience with Rodgers at the moment in spite of everything, than he did with his less successful predecessor Puel, in spite of our abject football and with it, form at present. 

[foxile5]

9 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I don't want Rodgers getting sacked, and have called for him to get the time he has earnt/deserves, but there's no comparisons to 25 years ago.

 

MON was buying players from reserve sides and football league sides - Elliott, Lennon, Izzet, Savage etc - and making them good Premier League players. Nowadays we have so much at our disposal that we can go out and spend £30m on a 19 year old centre half from a French side. MON had a 100 year old stadium but now we've got a fairly new ground and £100m training ground. There's just no comparison.

 

Also fans probably were judgmental, and did moan, during those times but you didn't see it as much because there was no internet forum or social media. People won't remember the "crap performances" from 25 years ago but they remember the league cup wins and European runs. The same will happen with Rodgers with time, in 25 years people won't remember losing away at Villa or Bournemouth but will remember winning the FA Cup. That's how it goes with nostalgia; you remember the good parts only.

I remember losing to Grimsby away and haven't stopped moaning since.