Head losses following a lack of leadership/calming voice.

[StanSP]

11 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

A reminder of that West Brom game:

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56754992

 

We went third after winning the game 3-0. We were brilliant in the first half. We created chances after chances. Big Sam said we were unplayable and was a top side only behind Man City. We were indeed brilliant.  Second half, we were boring and created nothing.

 

Yet, Rodgers said:

 

"In the first half I wasn't happy at all. We weren't precise enough with our passing. In the second half we controlled the game.”

 

"Overall, I'm really pleased as a win in the Premier League is always huge. We were good but we can be much better. It was always going to be a big test. We have to control ourselves and our own performance."

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the mentality issue we talked about, instilled by Rodgers himself. He didn’t like to control games by maintaining performance and having a go, he screamed at the players at halftime for having a go, screamed at them essentially for not going backwards to be safe. When you play with that mentality, it eventually becomes a loser mentality, so afraid of making mistakes and one day you just lose confidence. This is what is happening. Rodgers didn’t mean that, but he did that effectively without realizing. Now he sees the results of that but blames the players. He wanted to be perfect, but it backfired.

You got all that from what he said? 

 

The critical point was that we weren't precise enough with the passing. West Brom were absolutely rancid. We were quite good. Rodgers said we could be better. How is that specifically a loser mentality? 

 

There's nothing there at all about 'screaming to go backwards' or not having a go. 

 

Think you've read into that specific bit a tad too much? 

 

What he says and what you've gleaned isn't the same, in my opinion. 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

On 09/02/2022 at 10:17, SemperEadem said:

Soyucu being rash was the first thing a Bochum guy told me when we were signing him. Said he was at times all over the place in Freiburg.

This is the bit that frustrates me the most about Cags. We signed him as a 22 year old. Being rash or having shortcomings (alongside his many positives) is normal for a young defender. Its normal for any player. 

 

The bit that gets me though. He is 25 now and this is his 3rd full season as a premier league player with international experience - yet he remains as much a liability as he was when he first walked through the door. He is two years from his prime but his positioning sense alone means without Evans and Fofana we might as well play a 18 year old from the youth team.  His form over the last year has been atrocious. I mean seriously bad. The amount of mistakes or should I say habits that have cost us or threatened to cost us suggest he isnt improving on those shortcomings any time soon. 

 

Based on the last 12-18 months - I dont see Cags as the asset his agent feeding the press is telling us that he is. He isnt a leader at the back. I wouldnt say he is incredibly strong in the air. His positioning is poor. He fails to bring a calmness to the back line. It leaves me asking what is it that he brings ? Should he really keep playing ? I dont think he should. Vestegaard is useless but Caglar Soyuncu (who seems to get away with a lot) is not that far behind. 

 

 

[fazzyfox]

Aside from anything Brendan has thrown at them this week do you think there would be a players meeting too, lead by Kasper, Johnny Evans, Vardy, Albrighton (although he seems a quiet type) having a serious chat about the recent capitulations and the lack of fight vs Forest?

 

At the very least even in the absence of Evans can we get some communication among the back 4 or 5, press pause when the ball hits our net or a through ball plays someone in and the line is appalling, The Dog & Duck  3rd team would be embarrassed at some of the shapes, who is organising when Evans isn't there? We heard Kaspers volume level during the lockdown matches but we need more than that, you don't have to be as good a centre half as Evans but you can at least have a pair of eyes and a voice.  

[smudgerfox]

As I’ve said before, had Man City continued playing they would have racked up double figures in that 6-3 game. Regardless of personnel and injuries the lack of pragmatism on the defending front is scarcely believable.
 

Any side who contrives to be 4-0 down after 25 mins in any match, against any opposition,  is  inviting relegation, if not this season, then next. 

 

Sticking to his system (whatever it is)

seems more important to BR than the match result. He’s a coaching theorist and idealist - not a hard-headed win seeker. 
 

His failure to fix set piece defending is a case in point. Teams of all shapes and sizes and ability levels and I suppose of varying levels of commitment, manage to defend corners better than we do. It’s a coaching fundamental on which BR has fallen horribly short..
 

 

[sacreblueits442]

On 10/02/2022 at 06:51, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Now you tell us. 😉

...he was rash before he came here and very much seemed the lesser of the two between him and Benkovic!!!

  The fact that we managed to take that aspect out of his game made him a better player.

  He had a tendency to barge opponents from behind in an attempt to win the ball.

If we could get into his head and understand what is going on, it would help him an us to understand the drop off in his form. 

[sacreblueits442]

On 09/02/2022 at 23:58, Tom12345 said:

A reminder of that West Brom game:

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56754992

 

We went third after winning the game 3-0. We were brilliant in the first half. We created chances after chances. Big Sam said we were unplayable and was a top side only behind Man City. We were indeed brilliant.  Second half, we were boring and created nothing.

 

Yet, Rodgers said:

 

"In the first half I wasn't happy at all. We weren't precise enough with our passing. In the second half we controlled the game.”

 

"Overall, I'm really pleased as a win in the Premier League is always huge. We were good but we can be much better. It was always going to be a big test. We have to control ourselves and our own performance."

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the mentality issue we talked about, instilled by Rodgers himself. He didn’t like to control games by maintaining performance and having a go, he screamed at the players at halftime for having a go, screamed at them essentially for not going backwards to be safe. When you play with that mentality, it eventually becomes a loser mentality, so afraid of making mistakes and one day you just lose confidence. This is what is happening. Rodgers didn’t mean that, but he did that effectively without realizing. Now he sees the results of that but blames the players. He wanted to be perfect, but it backfired.

.. I said at the time that he wanted us to be more ruthless and clinical on the pitch!!!

We had started to overplay, passes were being under hit, not being made quick enough, shooting where there were other options, and the ability to create chances were slipping through our fingers. Just to ignore the scoreline and to continue playing as you were, eluded us.

For him to have reacted in such a way was due to the realisation that these players were never going to have the menatlity, where they can maintain the same level of concentration, and applied themselves clinically even with a favourable scoreline.

Kicking water bottles and being frustrated is what you do on the sidelines against a Forest team playing you off the pitch, not something that you do when you are 3- 0 up in the first half of a Premier League game.

We as a team lack the ability to go and dominate a game or team and the self discipline to maintain that focus, and do the right things,  for the duration of the game. Rodgers knew that then.

[smudgerfox]

I’d forgotten the WBA incident but it’s in line with what I said about him being a purist …almost that it’s not enough to win it has to be victory by strictly deploying his tactical methods ….

 

That’s fine until the coaching methods stop working altogether …

 

If we come under any kind of relegation pressure this season - I know it’s unlikely - but if we do I’m not sure this squad led by this manager has it in them to secure the necessary wins under that kind of pressure 

 

 

[Tom12345]

9 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

.. I said at the time that he wanted us to be more ruthless and clinical on the pitch!!!

We had started to overplay, passes were being under hit, not being made quick enough, shooting where there were other options, and the ability to create chances were slipping through our fingers. Just to ignore the scoreline and to continue playing as you were, eluded us.

For him to have reacted in such a way was due to the realisation that these players were never going to have the menatlity, where they can maintain the same level of concentration, and applied themselves clinically even with a favourable scoreline.

Kicking water bottles and being frustrated is what you do on the sidelines against a Forest team playing you off the pitch, not something that you do when you are 3- 0 up in the first half of a Premier League game.

We as a team lack the ability to go and dominate a game or team and the self discipline to maintain that focus, and do the right things,  for the duration of the game. Rodgers knew that then.

Umm … not sure which game you watched but we created nothing in the second half in that game and constantly backpassed instead. We created plenty of chances in the first half and I would say with a score line of 3-0 we were dominating and we could have scored more. If I was to say which half we constantly let chances slip through our fingers, it was the second half after Rodgers put his foot down. Rodgers was happy with that though. In the long run, it backfired and he created a loser mentality.

[jim5000]

On 08/02/2022 at 18:10, Vacamion said:

 

A lot of the capitulations can be summarised as we can't defend set pieces, other teams know it and we can't do anything when they exploit it.

 

Oh to be able to sign someone like 2015 vintage Huth.

 

 

 

Huth came in on a loan and then a 12 month contract. This season, in January, we did nothing.

Also, Rodgers would sign Huth and then play a high line with him paired with Amartey, and we'd all be saying Huth was crap. Credit to Raineri, he came in, saw the players available, and said 'I know the perfect system to get the most out of this team'. No progressive high line with Wes Morgan playing it out from the back, and Simpson working as an overlapping fullback.

Edited 11 February 2022 by jim5000

[sacreblueits442]

24 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

Umm … not sure which game you watched but we created nothing in the second half in that game and constantly backpassed instead. We created plenty of chances in the first half and I would say with a score line of 3-0 we were dominating and we could have scored more. If I was to say which half we constantly let chances slip through our fingers, it was the second half after Rodgers put his foot down. Rodgers was happy with that though. In the long run, it backfired and he created a loser mentality.

.....I thought it was clear I was referring to the first half, apologises if that was not made clear, in my post!!!

The chances that I was referring to, were in the first half where we began to showboat having gone 3-0 up, and instead of doing the right things and being professional we began to overplay the game. We just do not have the discipline, to keep our excitement under control, and maintain the level of play which had got us into the position.

 That was the reason he was so upset, and he ( Rodgers) knew we did not have it in us to become the team that he wanted us to be. The second half had little to it, as the whole mood of the team had changed by then.

Edited 12 February 2022 by sacreblueits442

[MattFox]

Another one for the list

[CosbehFox]

 

the type of tactic we don’t do

[Stadt]

5 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

the type of tactic we don’t do

Rodgers is a purist (not even good at being one) and as result we’re the least streetwise team in the league - it costs us points.

[shailen]

3 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Rodgers is a purist (not even good at being one) and as result we’re the least streetwise team in the league - it costs us points.

I sort of disagree this. Rodgers has tried to tinker too much when things are going well for us in games to see the game out. We were all over West Ham in the second half so there wasn't a need to bring on Vestergard to see the game through! He'd never do that in his first one or two seasons here, and the way we've defended this season, surely attack is our best form of defence! 

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Rodgers is a purist (not even good at being one) and as result we’re the least streetwise team in the league - it costs us points.

this x millions 

 

its so frustrating 

[st albans fox]

Just now, shailen said:

I sort of disagree this. Rodgers has tried to tinker too much when things are going well for us in games to see the game out. We were all over West Ham in the second half so there wasn't a need to bring on Vestergard to see the game through! He'd never do that in his first one or two seasons here, and the way we've defended this season, surely attack is our best form of defence! 

Not speaking about tactics - we’re speaking about the acceptable unsporting stuff which gets you wins 

[Guest ttfn]

Can we make this a rolling list? Must be another 7 or 8 to add since the Forest game.

[smudgerfox]

On 08/02/2022 at 15:32, AKCJ said:

Nottingham Forest (a) 6th February 2022

We conceded 3 goals in 9 minutes including twice in 81 seconds

 

Spurs (h) 19th January 2022

We conceded 2 goals in 1 minute to lose the game in injury time.

 

Man City (a) 26th December 2021

We conceded 4 goals in 15 minutes including two penalties.

 

Liverpool (a) 22nd December 2021

We didn't touch the ball for about 20 minutes at the end of the game and conceded with virtually the last kick.

 

Chelsea (h) 20th November 2021

We conceded from another set piece before going on to be completely battered. 2nd goal kills us off 15 minutes later.

 

Arsenal (h) 30th October 2021

Lose the game within the first 20 minutes with two completely avoidable goals.

 

Palace (a) 3 October 2021

Throw away a two goal lead with 11 minutes of madness. Two completely avoidable goals.

 

Brighton (a) 19th September 2021

Two simple goals either side of half time make a comeback almost impossible despite a good effort. 

 

Napoli (h) 16th September 2021

Two late goals to throw away a 2-0 lead. Eventually cost us our place in the RO16. Stupid red card from Ndidi.

 

West Ham (a) 23rd August 2021

Two 15 minutes of madness here. 1st half go behind and a man down and in the second half throw away a fightback with ridiculous defending.

 

Spurs (h) 23rd May 2021

3 goals in 15 minutes to throw away the Champions League despite Chelsea giftwrapping it to us.

 

Newcastle (h) 7th May 2021

We went 4-0 down against Newcastle at home in a must win game.

 

West Ham (a) 11th April 2021

Three goals in 15 minutes to lose the game despite a good attempt at a comeback in the second half.

 

Arsenal (h) 28th February 2021

Three goals in 15 minutes either side of half time to lose the game from a winning position.

 

Prague (h) 25th February 2021

Lost the game against a very poor team with completely avoidable goals in the 2nd half.

 

Leeds (h) 31st January 2021

Two simple goals to lose the game in the last 15 minutes of the game despite being in a winning position.

 

Fulham (h) 30th November 2020

Two simple goals within 8 minutes of each other to lose the game in the first half against a shit Fulham team.

 

West Ham (h) 4th October 2020

Lose the game in the first half against an out of sorts West Ham when we were flying. Two easy goals.

 

Man United (h) 26th July 2020

Lose the game (and UCL qualification) as well as a ridiculous red card in the last 15 minutes against United.

 

Spurs (a) 19th July 2020

Shocking defending leads to three simple Spurs goals for us to lose a must-not-lose game by the 40th minute.

 

Bournemouth (a) 12th July 2020

Arguably the worst head loss i've ever seen from a football team. Lost 4-1 to relegation favourites including a ridiculous red card.

 

Everton (a) 1st July 2020

Two goals down after 16 minutes. Lost the game and a lot of momentum.

 

Watford (a) 20th June 2020

Absolutely no concentration in the last minute at a corner. Drew a game we should have won comfortably.

 

 

Can't be arsed going further. These all occurred since project restart.

Which Europa game was it we lost 1-0 at home to the oppositions only attack?- they had one man in the box, we had at least four yet he was given a free header and scored - was it Moscow or Warsaw? 

[AKCJ]

4 minutes ago, smudgerfox said:

Which Europa game was it we lost 1-0 at home to the oppositions only attack?- they had one man in the box, we had at least four yet he was given a free header and scored - was it Moscow or Warsaw? 

Moscow IIRC. Victor Moses.

[smudgerfox]

1 hour ago, AKCJ said:

Moscow IIRC. Victor Moses.

Undone by the star of Stoke 

[fazzyfox]

4 hours ago, AKCJ said:

Moscow IIRC. Victor Moses.

Yes, Moses, our defending was like a parting of the waves as we gave him space to score the header.

[Tuna]

Newcastle at home in 2021 was genuinely astonishing.

Edited 2 April 2023 by Tuna

[Guy]

5 hours ago, AKCJ said:

Moscow IIRC. Victor Moses.

Yep - although the game finished 1-1, not a defeat - although it felt like one¬! 

[trabuch]

On 10/02/2022 at 11:18, Mickyblueeyes said:

This is the bit that frustrates me the most about Cags. We signed him as a 22 year old. Being rash or having shortcomings (alongside his many positives) is normal for a young defender. Its normal for any player. 

 

The bit that gets me though. He is 25 now and this is his 3rd full season as a premier league player with international experience - yet he remains as much a liability as he was when he first walked through the door. He is two years from his prime but his positioning sense alone means without Evans and Fofana we might as well play a 18 year old from the youth team.  His form over the last year has been atrocious. I mean seriously bad. The amount of mistakes or should I say habits that have cost us or threatened to cost us suggest he isnt improving on those shortcomings any time soon. 

 

Based on the last 12-18 months - I dont see Cags as the asset his agent feeding the press is telling us that he is. He isnt a leader at the back. I wouldnt say he is incredibly strong in the air. His positioning is poor. He fails to bring a calmness to the back line. It leaves me asking what is it that he brings ? Should he really keep playing ? I dont think he should. Vestegaard is useless but Caglar Soyuncu (who seems to get away with a lot) is not that far behind. 

 

 

You make a good point. He's clearly been badly managed.