Lionator Posted 24 May Share Posted 24 May 1 hour ago, st albans fox said: More likely that xi has told him it’s time to see if he can do a deal. what he’s asking for now seems pretty similar to what he’s indicated he’d settle for in the past. I think he probably feels he’s shown that he can rebuff an6 attempts by ukraine to regain ground. However, I assume that new weapons now coming in from the west may move things back a little. I’m sure he’d settle for some adjustment east of the existing front line - not too much though. Russia still have superior man power even if Ukraine get new weapons. It’s a stalemate either way. Can’t see Ukraine taking back major ground, and Russia aren’t going to take major ground from here. A waste of everyone’s time and sadly, people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 24 May Share Posted 24 May I fear there are so many land mines down now that the land they’re fighting over is next to useless for the better part of a decade anyway. Even so, I’d be surprised if Putin agreed to anything this side of the American elections. Even if he was up for a deal he’d want to give Trump the credit. Regardless, we’ve been here before a hundred times with rumoured peace deals. I’ll believe it when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May (edited) . Edited 25 May by SpacedX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SpacedX Posted 25 May Popular Post Share Posted 25 May 12 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said: The point about Gish Gallop is that it takes minimal effort to produce and an extremely large amount of effort to refute. A perfect summary of your own posts. Let me make it simple then. Andrew Bridgen on "Wide Awake Media" - "convincing"? 12 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said: Tucker Carlson made an interesting point We'll leave it there shall we? 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 7 hours ago, Dunge said: I fear there are so many land mines down now that the land they’re fighting over is next to useless for the better part of a decade anyway. Even so, I’d be surprised if Putin agreed to anything this side of the American elections. Even if he was up for a deal he’d want to give Trump the credit. Regardless, we’ve been here before a hundred times with rumoured peace deals. I’ll believe it when I see it. It is estimated that some two million landmines have been laid in Ukraine since the start of the illegal occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 7 minutes ago, SpacedX said: We'll leave it at that I think. Well we can but are you sure that's the style of discussion you want? Something is true whether or not you like the person who said it. You could try to rebut the actual substance of Tucker's claim instead of dismissing it because you don't like where it comes from. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it, otherwise what grounds do you have to disagree with the claim that there is a noticeable absence of a cult-of-personality phenomenon around the Russian president? I mean you could very easily show my claim to be wrong; show videos or images which suggest otherwise, for example, or at the very least recount your own anecdotal evidence from having been in the country. Quote A perfect summary of your own posts. Except it's not is it, because my posts contain a digestible number of easily identifiable claims which are in principle falsifiable, and they often take a lot of time and effort to write, hence why I don't always reply so quickly. Yours tend to contain one-line dismissals of detailed points, heavy concentrations of buzzwords, and opinions presented as axiomatic truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 22 minutes ago, MarshallForEngland said: . Yours tend to contain one-line dismissals of detailed points, heavy concentrations of buzzwords, and opinions presented as axiomatic truths. The irony, was it intentional? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May Pardon me, but this was the way that the first Ukraine related thread got locked, perhaps it would be nice if this one didn't suffer the same fate? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May (edited) 32 minutes ago, SpacedX said: The irony, was it intentional? I trust the readers to make their own minds up about our exchange. 28 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Pardon me, but this was the way that the first Ukraine related thread got locked, perhaps it would be nice if this one didn't suffer the same fate? It would be a shame, so what is the solution? Limit the threads to a small number of approved opinions? As long as we are civil and argue in good faith I don’t see why anything should be closed down. Edited 25 May by MarshallForEngland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May (edited) 40 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Pardon me, but this was the way that the first Ukraine related thread got locked, perhaps it would be nice if this one didn't suffer the same fate? Precisely my caveat yesterday, and it involved the same two members. Apologies. To return to the topic, I'll leave it to others then to broach this. There are times in which any response would be preferable to none...even if it's simply that slack jaw emoji. 13 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said: By the way, Tucker Carlson made an interesting point during his visit to Moscow that one thing that shocked him is the total absence of any sort of Cult-of-Personality phenomenon around Putin. Edited 25 May by SpacedX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May (edited) to be fair to Carlson, putin seems fairly bereft of personality so a ‘cult of personality’ absence seems reasonable. plenty of other kinds of ‘cults’ though ….. Edited 25 May by st albans fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 38 minutes ago, MarshallForEngland said: It would be a shame, so what is the solution? Limit the threads to a small number of approved opinions? As long as we are civil and argue in good faith I don’t see why anything should be closed down. I'm not giving my own thoughts on whether or not it should stay open, simply saying what probably will happen based on past experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 13 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said: Well forgive me but I thought that your point kind of collapses semantically if you yourself voted the same way as the electorate you’re calling untrustworthy. I do see your overall point though. Can we agree on what we mean by evidence? Perhaps it’s too far away from the Ukraine topic of the thread but I have a feeling it is also relevant here too. I'm still not sure the way I voted is relevant to the answer I gave to your question which I believe is no, as I have already said. To discuss what we mean by evidence, at least for my example of Brexit as proof that the electorate cannot be trusted to decide something is sufficiently evidence based, would require discussion about the claims and promises made, and the evidence behind these prior to the referendum, and is completely off topic for this thread so I'm going to leave it here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salisbury Fox Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 13 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said: All for them striking inside Russia with western weapons. They'll get used to it, they just love to make empty threats. According to Lavrov Ukraine is already using western weapons to strike inside Ukraine. Another red line crossed then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 25 May Share Posted 25 May 48 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said: I'm still not sure the way I voted is relevant to the answer I gave to your question which I believe is no, as I have already said. To discuss what we mean by evidence, at least for my example of Brexit as proof that the electorate cannot be trusted to decide something is sufficiently evidence based, would require discussion about the claims and promises made, and the evidence behind these prior to the referendum, and is completely off topic for this thread so I'm going to leave it here. You are right, that specific topic is not for this thread, but perhaps ideas such as national sovereignty, patriotism, the democratic process etc are all relevant to the situation in Ukraine. The reason I asked the question is that some people might require statistics and data to make a political decision, while others vote according to less tangible criteria. I don't think Ukrainians would accept arguments that their national GDP would increase or that transport infrastructure would improve under Russian occupation for example. Even if those things were true and reams of statistical evidence were presented to show it, ideas like national identity, culture, language, autonomy etc matter more. That's why I don't think Brexit shows that the British electorate cannot be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salisbury Fox Posted 26 May Share Posted 26 May 22 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said: Well we can but are you sure that's the style of discussion you want? Something is true whether or not you like the person who said it. You could try to rebut the actual substance of Tucker's claim instead of dismissing it because you don't like where it comes from. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it, otherwise what grounds do you have to disagree with the claim that there is a noticeable absence of a cult-of-personality phenomenon around the Russian president? I mean you could very easily show my claim to be wrong; show videos or images which suggest otherwise, for example, or at the very least recount your own anecdotal evidence from having been in the country. Except it's not is it, because my posts contain a digestible number of easily identifiable claims which are in principle falsifiable, and they often take a lot of time and effort to write, hence why I don't always reply so quickly. Yours tend to contain one-line dismissals of detailed points, heavy concentrations of buzzwords, and opinions presented as axiomatic truths. He doesn’t need a cult of personality. You can’t have missed the large numbers who have had mysterious accidents from tall buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 29 May Share Posted 29 May I’m increasingly of the opinion that the US will throw Ukraine under the bus to ensure it doesn’t lose Taiwan and that the Middle East doesn’t become a mass war zone. I reckon war negotiations by the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salisbury Fox Posted 29 May Share Posted 29 May 54 minutes ago, Lionator said: I’m increasingly of the opinion that the US will throw Ukraine under the bus to ensure it doesn’t lose Taiwan and that the Middle East doesn’t become a mass war zone. I reckon war negotiations by the end of the year. You can only negotiate if both sides do so in good faith, but Russia continues to show no signs of doing so: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-26-2024 You are right that that Taiwan is a priority for the US, however the outcome in Ukraine is extremely relevant to deterring action there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkster the Fox Posted 29 May Share Posted 29 May 1 hour ago, Salisbury Fox said: You can only negotiate if both sides do so in good faith, but Russia continues to show no signs of doing so: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-26-2024 You are right that that Taiwan is a priority for the US, however the outcome in Ukraine is extremely relevant to deterring action there. You do realise the ISW is owned and run by the Kagan family. Robert Kagen is the husband of Vicky "Cookies" Nuland, the most hawkish US government member in relation to Ukraine since the Proxy preparation since 2008. The most hawkish against Russia in the US administration and you take this article seriously???? The ISW position is like reading the Daily Mail report on flying the St Georges Cross... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkster the Fox Posted 29 May Share Posted 29 May 1 minute ago, Dirkster the Fox said: You do realise the ISW is owned and run by the Kagan family. Robert Kagen is the husband of Vicky "Cookies" Nuland, the most hawkish US government member in relation to Ukraine since the Proxy preparation since 2008. The most hawkish against Russia in the US administration and you take this article seriously???? The ISW position is like reading the Daily Mail report on flying the St Georges Cross... Vicky "cookies" even decided on who the US wanted as the new Ukraine President after the US (paid for and sponsored) 2014 Maidan coup... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 30 May Share Posted 30 May (edited) I’m amazed after everything that’s has happened that there are still people who think Russia have any ‘ good faith’ intention to negotiate and will even abide by/ honor any deal. i’d love to know what people know that suggests they’ll respect Ukrainian sovereignty in any way at all in any such deal? Edited 30 May by MPH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicesterpool Posted 30 May Share Posted 30 May Russia may pull troops out, even Putin make speech saying their mission Ukraine was accomplished and there returning for heroes welcome. When really there just coming home to lick their wounds and rebuild for next full invasion. Russia are running low on weapons and China seem to be less than impressed with progression and looks like supplies are less being aided. Maybe a case for Ukraine just winning the battle, but in term of the war... it'll be far from over. Give it time, Putin will send his troops straight back in no matter what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 30 May Share Posted 30 May Interesting development- Biden has now given Ukraine permission to use American made weapons INSIDE of Russian boundaries. In short, I think this means weapons dumps and military targets can be attacked to try and help the slow down of recent Russian Advances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salisbury Fox Posted 30 May Share Posted 30 May 35 minutes ago, MPH said: Interesting development- Biden has now given Ukraine permission to use American made weapons INSIDE of Russian boundaries. In short, I think this means weapons dumps and military targets can be attacked to try and help the slow down of recent Russian Advances. It seems they are restricted to using them near the Kharkiv region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 30 May Share Posted 30 May (edited) 2 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said: It seems they are restricted to using them near the Kharkiv region. Yep just means the Russians will spread out. Although I’m glad no deep strikes are allowed, could get a bit shirty otherwise. Not that Putin needs to do anything too mad. Edited 30 May by Lionator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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