Ukraine

[MPH]

Ukraine claims hundreds of Russians killed by missile attack https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64142650
 

 

whichever Military commander is responsible for housing about 1,000 troops with a large amount of ammo  in the same building and heavy military equipment right outside the same building  needs to lose his job. That’s if he’s still alive. 
 

absolutely amateurish leadership decision making.

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, MPH said:

Ukraine claims hundreds of Russians killed by missile attack https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64142650
 

 

whichever Military commander is responsible for housing about 1,000 troops with a large amount of ammo  in the same building and heavy military equipment right outside the same building  needs to lose his job. That’s if he’s still alive. 
 

absolutely amateurish leadership decision making.

The numbers reported as killed in a single attack is as tragic for Russian families as those Ukrainians killed by Russia. It doesn't really matter what the cause is. I cannot feel any sense of success or failure in these events. Not saying @MPHthat you do. 

Edited 2 January 2023 by Parafox

[Ginger_Filbert]

5 hours ago, MPH said:

Ukraine claims hundreds of Russians killed by missile attack https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64142650
 

 

whichever Military commander is responsible for housing about 1,000 troops with a large amount of ammo  in the same building and heavy military equipment right outside the same building  needs to lose his job. That’s if he’s still alive. 
 

absolutely amateurish leadership decision making.

I know this sounds awful but I’d love to see footage of this strike. 
 

I don’t mean that in anyway unsavoury but I just can’t comprehend in my little brain an explosion big enough to kill that many people. 
 

I know it’s still small compared to what is possible nowadays but any footage I’ve seen is drone bombs or tank strikes which are obviously relatively small compared to what this must have been. 

[MPH]

2 hours ago, Parafox said:

The numbers reported as killed in a single attack is as tragic for Russian families as those Ukrainians killed by Russia. It doesn't really matter what the cause is. I cannot feel any sense of success or failure in these events. Not saying @MPHthat you do. 

 

i understand what you were saying here. 
 

from a Ukrainian point of view, I’d see it as a few hundred less guns to be pointing their way  rather than to take joy in the loss of life. They are all mostly Slavic still so outside of war there’s still some kind of bond, I’d imagine..

[filthyfox]

FARQ PUTIN!

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, Ginger_Filbert said:

I know this sounds awful but I’d love to see footage of this strike. 
 

I don’t mean that in anyway unsavoury but I just can’t comprehend in my little brain an explosion big enough to kill that many people. 
 

I know it’s still small compared to what is possible nowadays but any footage I’ve seen is drone bombs or tank strikes which are obviously relatively small compared to what this must have been. 

Oddly, the footage of the blown up building doesn't appear to have any dead  bodies in it, so they were all vaporised or it’s a load of bullshit

[MPH]

23 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Oddly, the footage of the blown up building doesn't appear to have any dead  bodies in it, so they were all vaporised or it’s a load of bullshit

 

or possibly a quick cover up by Russia as it’s hugely embarrassing for them. They did admit to over 60 being confirmed dead. That’s unprecedented for Russia to admit to so there’s definitely something in it. Also, it was a multistory building and so the bodies will likely be under all the rubble not at the top-  Russia admit to many more still missing also.

Edited 3 January 2023 by MPH

[Ginger_Filbert]

Seems to be a step up in equipment being sent this last week or two. 
 

Get the feeling the west is going to go that extra step to try and get the war ended.

[LCFCCHRIS]

3 hours ago, Ginger_Filbert said:

Seems to be a step up in equipment being sent this last week or two. 
 

Get the feeling the west is going to go that extra step to try and get the war ended.

https://www.ft.com/content/092b8894-4441-4747-bfd4-5b21a0c68709

 

Definitely. They've always slowly crept up the level of support and what's provided but the last week has been quite a jump with the combat vehicles and now western tanks being sent. 

 

Also Surovikin has now been removed as commander of the invasion only 3 months after being put into that position. This is a good indicator about how Russia feels their war is going.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64235713.amp

[LCFCCHRIS]

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

 

Hopefully the other NATO countries follow suit now...

 

Edited 15 January 2023 by LCFCCHRIS

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

 

Hopefully the other NATO countries follow suit now...

 

I doubt it’s going to make any difference, there’s two ways this will end and that’s either Ukraine giving up and signing up to some agreement to become part of Russia or Ukraine “developing” weapons that can intimidate Moscow.

[Captain...]

There is a third way and that is Russian folk just getting so pissed off with this war they take down Putin politically.

Edited 15 January 2023 by Captain...
Typo

[turlo]

 

 

1 hour ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

 

Hopefully the other NATO countries follow suit now...

 

30 of our AS-90 Artillery guns as well, which we've not sent before -  we previously sent old soviet era Artillery, which NATO countries don't manufacture ammo for anymore

 

Just in time for the next weeks NATOs Ukraine Contract Group Meeting next week, with a number of countries stating they are willing to send Leopard 2 Tanks as part of a coalition but Germany needs to approve them first - much larger pool of Leopards 2s across Europe as Germany built them for export, so could potentially be sent in larger numbers

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-accelerates-ukraine-support-ahead-of-anniversary-of-putins-war

[turlo]

13 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I doubt it’s going to make any difference, there’s two ways this will end and that’s either Ukraine giving up and signing up to some agreement to become part of Russia or Ukraine “developing” weapons that can intimidate Moscow.

They would need larger number of tanks, artillery and longer range missiles for HIMARS/MLRS launchers, now that Russia has finally learned to move their ammo dumps out of the 70km range of what Ukraine has been provided with. Germany and the yanks will probably end up agreeing to send their main battle tanks in larger numbers(or approve other countries to do so) but the longer range missiles will  remain an escalation too far.

Ukraine needs to take back as much of it territory  by the end of next Autumn 2023 as it can to put itself in a stronger position to negotiate, while support from the West remains high/before current approved funding from the US runs out. Whether they will be supplied with everything they need to achieve that we shall find out in the coming months - i think their best hope is taking some of the land in the south back 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

3 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

 

Hopefully the other NATO countries follow suit now...

 

Awful idea this. British tank doctrine since WW2 has been built on a defensive stance, planning to battle hoards of Russian tanks from a defensive position. Ukraine are trying to retake ground, not hold it. Also 90% of the effectiveness is the training and the combined arms using them in conjunction with everything else, which Ukraine don't have. 

 

Brilliant propaganda for Putin when the first one gets knocked out too.

[Captain...]

38 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Awful idea this. British tank doctrine since WW2 has been built on a defensive stance, planning to battle hoards of Russian tanks from a defensive position. Ukraine are trying to retake ground, not hold it. Also 90% of the effectiveness is the training and the combined arms using them in conjunction with everything else, which Ukraine don't have. 

 

Brilliant propaganda for Putin when the first one gets knocked out too.

There are still plenty of Russian attempts to advance, there are lots of defensive positions. I would suspect that the military commanders will know the best way to deploy the equipment they have. 

[LCFCCHRIS]

1 hour ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Awful idea this. British tank doctrine since WW2 has been built on a defensive stance, planning to battle hoards of Russian tanks from a defensive position. Ukraine are trying to retake ground, not hold it. Also 90% of the effectiveness is the training and the combined arms using them in conjunction with everything else, which Ukraine don't have. 

 

Brilliant propaganda for Putin when the first one gets knocked out too.

Ukraine has been very resourceful so far. I think they will be very careful with these tanks. I see this more of a propaganda win for Ukraine than for Russia. Russia also claimed to have taken out more Himars then were delivered at one point so not sure how much people will care no matter what they say. 

[LCFCCHRIS]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

I doubt it’s going to make any difference, there’s two ways this will end and that’s either Ukraine giving up and signing up to some agreement to become part of Russia or Ukraine “developing” weapons that can intimidate Moscow.

The whole of Ukraine? Russia can't even hold onto all of the places they "annexed". Embarrassing for them. If we ever find ourselves in their shoes I'm sure most will agree we'd never give up whilst having an aggressor in our country. 

 

Another possibility is it becomes even more attritional and drags on for a long long time. With the west hopefully not backing down with support, it will be a long slog with hopefully Ukraine tipping the balance to their favour moreso. 

 

Finally the British government now thinks this is the prime time for Ukraine to have another go at an offensive as stated on the gov website.  Our intelligence has been pretty good so far on this war so I'd be more inclined to accept that conclusion.

Edited 15 January 2023 by LCFCCHRIS

[kenny]

1 hour ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Awful idea this. British tank doctrine since WW2 has been built on a defensive stance, planning to battle hoards of Russian tanks from a defensive position. Ukraine are trying to retake ground, not hold it. Also 90% of the effectiveness is the training and the combined arms using them in conjunction with everything else, which Ukraine don't have. 

 

Brilliant propaganda for Putin when the first one gets knocked out too.

If you believe the Ukrainian military figures, they have so far captured or destroyed over 3000 tanks and 6000 armoured vehicles.

 

I doubt they will be up against hordes of tanks as Russia doesn't appear to have many left.

 

The bigger issue is whether these heavier western tanks are suitable for soft boggy ground rather than the desert. I suspect they won't be used much unless it's frozen solid or it gets to the summer. It's a propaganda coup for Zelenskyy to inspire further support from larger pools of equipment.

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

The whole of Ukraine? Russia can't even hold onto all of the places they "annexed". Embarrassing for them. If we ever find ourselves in their shoes I'm sure most will agree we'd never give up whilst having an aggressor in our country. 

 

Another possibility is it becomes even more attritional and drags on for a long long time. With the west hopefully not backing down with support, it will be a long slog with hopefully Ukraine tipping the balance to their favour moreso. 

 

Finally the British government now thinks this is the prime time for Ukraine to have another go at an offensive as stated on the gov website.  Our intelligence has been pretty good so far on this war so I'd be more inclined to accept that conclusion.

It’s about time, the longer this goes on he more Ukraine will suffer, at the moment it’s all about consolidation and regaining land that’s been lost due to Russias swift movements at the start. Are Ukraine, and more importantly the west prepared for 5-10 years of this? I bet Russia is, they’ll carry on for as long as it takes, they’ve got to the resources to continue the war for years.

[MPH]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

 

 

The bigger issue is whether these heavier western tanks are suitable for soft boggy ground rather than the desert. I suspect they won't be used much unless it's frozen solid or it gets to the summer. It's a propaganda coup for Zelenskyy to inspire further support from larger pools of equipment.

 

I actually think tanks will be the better option for the treacherous winter/spring mud. They’ll be able to move around far more effectively than some of the lighter vehicles that they currently posses

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

It’s about time, the longer this goes on he more Ukraine will suffer, at the moment it’s all about consolidation and regaining land that’s been lost due to Russias swift movements at the start. Are Ukraine, and more importantly the west prepared for 5-10 years of this? I bet Russia is, they’ll carry on for as long as it takes, they’ve got to the resources to continue the war for years.

 

Ukraine certainly are.  And it suits the west and the states very well to have Russia weakened to a stand still. It stops their advancement both politically and physically further west, and weakens them in the long term as there is a massive shift away from dependence on Russian gas/ oil. 
 

it’s the perfect scenario for this to play out long term and for the Ukraine to not give up because as soon as Ukraine is ‘ defeated’ Russia will negotiate sanctions from a position of strength and we will be back to where we all were a year ago but with a defeated Ukraine that Russia will rape of its resources and will will consequently present us with a stronger Russia.

[fuchsntf]

When will all people’s recognise that Russians are Neanderthal little boy gangsters.

Devoid of any humane thought or care….

I have Russian friends…some went on the street against their own,who in their Russian-deutsche world , demonstrated supporting Putin..

Words are lost on these genocide maniacs..

[MPH]

1 hour ago, fuchsntf said:

When will all people’s recognise that Russians are Neanderthal little boy gangsters.

Devoid of any humane thought or care….

I have Russian friends…some went on the street against their own,who in their Russian-deutsche world , demonstrated supporting Putin..

Words are lost on these genocide maniacs..

 

If you were to say the  the current Russian regime were Neanderthals you’d probably get more agreement. The fact so many opposition leaders imprisoned, ‘ missing’ poisoned or falling out of windows let’s you know there ARE people against what’s going on in Russia… the exodus of Rich  Russians leaving the country, the opposition to the conscription and the fact you are likely to face beatings and imprisonment simply for disagreeing with the current Russian regime does tell you the problem lays with the current Russian government not necessarily with Russia as a whole

[Bordersfox]

4 hours ago, kenny said:

If you believe the Ukrainian military figures, they have so far captured or destroyed over 3000 tanks and 6000 armoured vehicles.

 

I doubt they will be up against hordes of tanks as Russia doesn't appear to have many left.

 

The bigger issue is whether these heavier western tanks are suitable for soft boggy ground rather than the desert. I suspect they won't be used much unless it's frozen solid or it gets to the summer. It's a propaganda coup for Zelenskyy to inspire further support from larger pools of equipment.

Russia has an estimated 10,000 tanks.  I'm sure not all immediately usable but they ain't going to run out just yet. 

 

The bigger issue is that most of the weapons and vehicles supplied thus far have been from stockpiled weapons in the west.  It's not really hurt countries financially or stretched their own capabilities in the same way as providing MBTs will.  

 

MBTs are costly and have not been produced in vast numbers after the end of the cold war.  Supplying them to Ukraine will require countries to actually start forking out immediately to build or acquire replacements.  That's not quite the same as the stuff that's been supplied so far.  

 

Perhaps the biggest issue though is the tech and support vehicles required to support Challengers etc you can't just run these things in isolation - they need significant support vehicles, engineers and so on. 

 

Complex issue for the west to grapple with which is why they have been kicking the can down the road.  However, it's crunch time. 

Edited 15 January 2023 by Bordersfox