Countryfox Posted 8 February 2023 Share Posted 8 February 2023 11 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said: Now the key is apparently fighter jets. Previously it was tanks, before that it was artillery and before that it was MPADS/NLAWs... One step at a time … or maybe .. slowly slowly catchee monkey .. Either way I think this is all being handled very well so as to keep the lid on Mad Vlad and we are now heading towards the end game and the Russian invaders getting the order of the boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1norfolk Posted 8 February 2023 Share Posted 8 February 2023 26 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said: Now the key is apparently fighter jets. Previously it was tanks, before that it was artillery and before that it was MPADS/NLAWs... 26 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said: Now the key is apparently fighter jets. Previously it was tanks, before that it was artillery and before that it was MPADS/NLAWs... We will never give him our fighter jets, the 5 squadrons of Typhoons are to defend the UK. The new F35’s we have 3 squadrons and the risk of the the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world getting into Russian hands is not an option. To train any fast jet pilot for the aircraft the RAF use takes several years. He keeps wanting us to supply F16’s an aircraft the UK has never used and what we operate now is far more advanced. I get the impression he wants to escalate this war into the end game we’re there are no winners. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turlo Posted 8 February 2023 Share Posted 8 February 2023 44 minutes ago, Fox1norfolk said: We will never give him our fighter jets, the 5 squadrons of Typhoons are to defend the UK. The new F35’s we have 3 squadrons and the risk of the the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world getting into Russian hands is not an option. To train any fast jet pilot for the aircraft the RAF use takes several years. He keeps wanting us to supply F16’s an aircraft the UK has never used and what we operate now is far more advanced. I get the impression he wants to escalate this war into the end game we’re there are no winners. If its the Eurofighter it will be the ones from the first batch that were rolled out and have already started to be phased out They were delivered with scaled back capability but will be enough to launch the storm shadow cruise missiles from, that its being speculated the UK will give to Ukraine based on recent comments from Ben Wallace about supplying them with "long range weapons" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Countryfox Posted 8 February 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 8 February 2023 55 minutes ago, Fox1norfolk said: . I get the impression he wants to escalate this war into the end game we’re there are no winners. I get the impression he wants to get the murdering torturing rapists who wrecked the lives of millions of his people and reduced his country to rubble out of Ukraine. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1norfolk Posted 8 February 2023 Share Posted 8 February 2023 1 hour ago, turlo said: If its the Eurofighter it will be the ones from the first batch that were rolled out and have already started to be phased out They were delivered with scaled back capability but will be enough to launch the storm shadow cruise missiles from, that its being speculated the UK will give to Ukraine based on recent comments from Ben Wallace about supplying them with "long range weapons" I hope I am wrong, but if we supplied them even with early batch Typhoons and Storm Shadows we can expect massive retaliation. Sand bags by your doors and windows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 8 February 2023 Share Posted 8 February 2023 The main issue is training. Some say Ukrainian pilots were training on NATO jets over in the US since the start of the war. If that were the case then perhaps the decision has already been made. I could imagine not wanting to announce the delivery of jets when it takes a good year at absolute minimum of training to be able to use them in combat. Another option is the jets get sent and western 'volunteers' who happen to be ex pilots magically show up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFCCHRIS Posted 9 February 2023 Share Posted 9 February 2023 I think it’s inevitable that jets will be given at some point. Even if it’s finally allowing Baltic state countries giving migs with a discount or deal on American fighters in exchange. There’s a clear pattern of denying the sending of something then discussing it then finally giving it policy by the west. Which I think is working very well up to now. Another conclusion I’m taking from the current situation is that Putin may be the ‘better the devil you know’ of this war. The general consensus is that any overthrowing of Putin would be done by even more extreme or hardline parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 I’m not sure how I feel about the idea of fighter jets being handed over. For a start it will make us a target of Russian skullduggery ( mysterious damage to oil tankers, oil rigs, ect..) as there does not appear to be many nations interested in handing over planes… even the ‘warmongering Americans’ seem reluctant to hand over planes.. with tanks you can somewhat counter argue that they can be classed as a defensive tool. Fighter jets would take it to a whole new level. It could be of course that this is what is needed with supposedly 500k troops amassing at the border. I will say however, if I was Zelensky I would have gone about things the same way. You can’t start off asking for jets at the beginning of the war when the full impact and understanding of it still hasn’t been realized… he wouldn’t have got them and the war would be over fairly quickly and it absolutely serves our purpose to keep Russia ‘ busy’ for as long as possible.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said: I think it’s inevitable that jets will be given at some point. Even if it’s finally allowing Baltic state countries giving migs with a discount or deal on American fighters in exchange. There’s a clear pattern of denying the sending of something then discussing it then finally giving it policy by the west. Which I think is working very well up to now. Another conclusion I’m taking from the current situation is that Putin may be the ‘better the devil you know’ of this war. The general consensus is that any overthrowing of Putin would be done by even more extreme or hardline parties. I wouldn’t say it’s a given but it’s a possibility.. the sheer number of protesters that have been arrested…those that have fled the country suggests there is definite opposition in the country to the war... I feeling like the country is biding it’s time before there is an undeniable uprising… Edited 10 February 2023 by MPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 7 hours ago, MPH said: I wouldn’t say it’s a given but it’s a possibility.. the sheer number of protesters that have been arrested…those that have fled the country suggests there is definite opposition in the country to the war... I feeling like the country is biding it’s time before there is an undeniable uprising… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64543618 Even the very few Russians feeling first hand the effects of this war still support the kremlin. Anyone thinking there is going to be some big uprising from inside Russia is living in la la land, unfortunately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 1 hour ago, Innovindil said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64543618 Even the very few Russians feeling first hand the effects of this war still support the kremlin. Anyone thinking there is going to be some big uprising from inside Russia is living in la la land, unfortunately. Unfortunately I think you are right .. it seems to me that we are a long long way from getting the impetus needed for people to try and change things .. the only chance is for someone to get in power and then slowly change things from the top. But as has been mentioned .. that’s a double edged sword and it might be someone worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthyfox Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 Zelensky is the modern version of Churchill, and everyone else is the US. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE LATE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 2 hours ago, Innovindil said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64543618 Even the very few Russians feeling first hand the effects of this war still support the kremlin. Anyone thinking there is going to be some big uprising from inside Russia is living in la la land, unfortunately. never thought it would happen in Iran either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Fresh Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 10 hours ago, MPH said: I’m not sure how I feel about the idea of fighter jets being handed over. For a start it will make us a target of Russian skullduggery ( mysterious damage to oil tankers, oil rigs, ect..) as there does not appear to be many nations interested in handing over planes… even the ‘warmongering Americans’ seem reluctant to hand over planes.. with tanks you can somewhat counter argue that they can be classed as a defensive tool. Fighter jets would take it to a whole new level. It could be of course that this is what is needed with supposedly 500k troops amassing at the border. I will say however, if I was Zelensky I would have gone about things the same way. You can’t start off asking for jets at the beginning of the war when the full impact and understanding of it still hasn’t been realized… he wouldn’t have got them and the war would be over fairly quickly and it absolutely serves our purpose to keep Russia ‘ busy’ for as long as possible.. Can't they also be classed as defensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFCCHRIS Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said: Can't they also be classed as defensive? Yeah I would argue everything is defensive even when pushing the enemy back when defending within your own territory. Edited 10 February 2023 by LCFCCHRIS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 56 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said: Can't they also be classed as defensive? 7 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said: Yeah I would argue everything is defensive even when pushing the enemy back when defending within your own territory. I do see what you are both saying. But it’s more about the capabilities than anything I suppose. you’ll never get a tanking zooming behind enemy lines to take out a position or a fuel dump. One things for sure… if the Russians are getting irate at the possibility of jets being included then you know they will be effective.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 2 hours ago, filthyfox said: Zelensky is the modern version of Churchill, and everyone else is the US. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE LATE. ...I'd be interested in knowing more about what this analogy means here? Just now, MPH said: I do see what you are both saying. But it’s more about the capabilities than anything I suppose. you’ll never get a tanking zooming behind enemy lines to take out a position or a fuel dump. One things for sure… if the Russians are getting irate at the possibility of jets being included then you know they will be effective.. And angry folks make mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Fresh Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 4 minutes ago, MPH said: I do see what you are both saying. But it’s more about the capabilities than anything I suppose. you’ll never get a tanking zooming behind enemy lines to take out a position or a fuel dump. One things for sure… if the Russians are getting irate at the possibility of jets being included then you know they will be effective.. Oh yeah it was more that theoretically you could counter any argument about jets by stating they are used as a defensive tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: And angry folks make mistakes. Without meaning to sound pedantic, they make ‘ bad decisions’ that they often think are justified. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 February 2023 Share Posted 10 February 2023 Just now, MPH said: Without meaning to sound pedantic, they make ‘ bad decisions’ that they often think are justified. Yup, that may well be a better way of phrasing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox_favourite Posted 11 February 2023 Share Posted 11 February 2023 (edited) On 10/02/2023 at 00:47, MPH said: I’m not sure how I feel about the idea of fighter jets being handed over. For a start it will make us a target of Russian skullduggery ( mysterious damage to oil tankers, oil rigs, ect..) as there does not appear to be many nations interested in handing over planes… even the ‘warmongering Americans’ seem reluctant to hand over planes.. with tanks you can somewhat counter argue that they can be classed as a defensive tool. Fighter jets would take it to a whole new level. It could be of course that this is what is needed with supposedly 500k troops amassing at the border. I will say however, if I was Zelensky I would have gone about things the same way. You can’t start off asking for jets at the beginning of the war when the full impact and understanding of it still hasn’t been realized… he wouldn’t have got them and the war would be over fairly quickly and it absolutely serves our purpose to keep Russia ‘ busy’ for as long as possible.. The other problem we have as a country is that we don’t have enough jets just to hand over. From what I know and hear, we’ve barely got enough for our own defence. What we can offer is excellent training to the Ukrainians to learn how to fly the jets that possibly might be handed over. I’m also slightly worried that the arms that we are sending aren’t getting replenished. Are we building more challenger tanks, or relying on the challenger 3 being ready sooner rather than later? The world has taken a dark turn the last few years, so as a government they need to be in a place where we can act. We have a highly skilled arm forces and one to be rightly proud of, but we need to give them the tools they need to be effective. I know it’s also a long shot, but we need to try diplomacy as well. At least give the impression of trying. This might make Russia look even more isolated if we’re looking at trying that route and Russia are not. Edited 11 February 2023 by fox_favourite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1norfolk Posted 11 February 2023 Share Posted 11 February 2023 3 hours ago, fox_favourite said: The other problem we have as a country is that we don’t have enough jets just to hand over. From what I know and hear, we’ve barely got enough for our own defence. What we can offer is excellent training to the Ukrainians to learn how to fly the jets that possibly might be handed over. I’m also slightly worried that the arms that we are sending aren’t getting replenished. Are we building more challenger tanks, or relying on the challenger 3 being ready sooner rather than later? The world has taken a dark turn the last few years, so as a government they need to be in a place where we can act. We have a highly skilled arm forces and one to be rightly proud of, but we need to give them the tools they need to be effective. I know it’s also a long shot, but we need to try diplomacy as well. At least give the impression of trying. This might make Russia look even more isolated if we’re looking at trying that route and Russia are not. I do not think we would ever offer any of our Typhoon aircraft for several reasons. They are designed for fighter intercepts, not ground attack. Although later versions do operate with Storm Shadow which is basically a cruise missile. Ukraine pilots are flying very old Russian Mig aircraft and a conversion course to fly a Typhoon would take a minimum of a year. Additionally there would be another major problem, maintenance. For every flying hour of advanced fighter aircraft it takes a day of servicing to get them airworthy again. This is done by highly skilled engineers and technicians working in almost sterile conditions. Are we willing to send out RAF personnel for this work?. So basically in my opinion the Typhoon scenario is a non starter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 11 February 2023 Share Posted 11 February 2023 3 hours ago, fox_favourite said: The other problem we have as a country is that we don’t have enough jets just to hand over. From what I know and hear, we’ve barely got enough for our own defence. What we can offer is excellent training to the Ukrainians to learn how to fly the jets that possibly might be handed over. I’m also slightly worried that the arms that we are sending aren’t getting replenished. Are we building more challenger tanks, or relying on the challenger 3 being ready sooner rather than later? The world has taken a dark turn the last few years, so as a government they need to be in a place where we can act. We have a highly skilled arm forces and one to be rightly proud of, but we need to give them the tools they need to be effective. I know it’s also a long shot, but we need to try diplomacy as well. At least give the impression of trying. This might make Russia look even more isolated if we’re looking at trying that route and Russia are not. They’ve been trying diplomacy since Russia captured Crimea. Diplomacy will work with Russia in the same way it worked with Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 11 February 2023 Share Posted 11 February 2023 13 minutes ago, MPH said: They’ve been trying diplomacy since Russia captured Crimea. Diplomacy will work with Russia in the same way it worked with Hitler. With the caveat that Hitler didn't have the power to destroy the entirety of human civilisation at his fingertips, thankfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 11 February 2023 Share Posted 11 February 2023 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: With the caveat that Hitler didn't have the power to destroy the entirety of human civilisation at his fingertips, thankfully. Russia , the United States and Europe being annihilated in a war might actually ‘save’ the rest of the world long term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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