Ukraine

[casablancas]

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

I’d like to know what’s in Belgorod that made this such a target..

A nuclear silo apparently. Amongst other targets. Is this Ukraine? Russian separatists? It’s getting juicy. Be interesting to see Putlers response. Surely he’s gotta make some sorta bold statement? Otherwise the warhawks’ll be after his arse. 

[MPH]

21 minutes ago, casablancas said:

A nuclear silo apparently. Amongst other targets. Is this Ukraine? Russian separatists? It’s getting juicy. Be interesting to see Putlers response. Surely he’s gotta make some sorta bold statement? Otherwise the warhawks’ll be after his arse. 

  Just saw this…

 

 

[leicsmac]

Seems mostly symbolic to me, but it has done an important thing be highlighting at least some dissent in the Russian ranks.

[MPH]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Seems mostly symbolic to me, but it has done an important thing be highlighting at least some dissent in the Russian ranks.

 

id love for it to act as a catalyst for rebellion within the Russian army or at least a swell of dissent amongst the people,

 

 

 

it’s an intriguing development  and at worst is a distraction of resources/ personnel away from the upcoming counteroffensive..

[Lionator]

https://archive.ph/ZLZJZ

 

This makes me uneasy. I'm all for ending this war on Ukraine's terms, but them uncritically using american weapons to attack Russia, blowing up gas infrastructure and trying to bomb the Kremlin is not the sort of stuff I'd want my country to be associated with. 

[MPH]

25 minutes ago, Lionator said:

https://archive.ph/ZLZJZ

 

This makes me uneasy. I'm all for ending this war on Ukraine's terms, but them uncritically using american weapons to attack Russia, blowing up gas infrastructure and trying to bomb the Kremlin is not the sort of stuff I'd want my country to be associated with. 

 

yes it’s true that American equipment was used but I wouldn’t go as far as saying it was a Ukranian operation.  Besides,  even if it was,  you can’t start a war with someone and then complain when they attack you back. That’s not how war works.. but granted  it does put the Americans in an awkward position..

 

 

But I will also say that  with regard to the so called damaged equipment  shown in photo.. there’s allegations of those photos being staged.. Previously captured equipment being used by the Russians to shame western Allies.. now that does seem a bit far fetched to me but in the photos of the  equipment I don’t see any evidence of war/ damaged glass around them.. no broken glass, no scorched/ burnt ground from a fire, so it’s hard to discount that allegation completely..

[MPH]

Joint statement from the Free Russia legion and the Russia volunteer corps who have claimed responsibility for the attacks..

[MPH]

 

[Lionator]

20 hours ago, MPH said:

 

yes it’s true that American equipment was used but I wouldn’t go as far as saying it was a Ukranian operation.  Besides,  even if it was,  you can’t start a war with someone and then complain when they attack you back. That’s not how war works.. but granted  it does put the Americans in an awkward position..

 

 

But I will also say that  with regard to the so called damaged equipment  shown in photo.. there’s allegations of those photos being staged.. Previously captured equipment being used by the Russians to shame western Allies.. now that does seem a bit far fetched to me but in the photos of the  equipment I don’t see any evidence of war/ damaged glass around them.. no broken glass, no scorched/ burnt ground from a fire, so it’s hard to discount that allegation completely..

But the wider point is, despite the Ukrainian government finally being democratic, there are still subsections of old school Soviet style thugs who are about. Neo-nazi’s, mafia hit men etc. Of course them taking their anger out on their Russian oppressors is hardly a tragedy but at some point, if Ukraine want to be in the EU/NATO, they’re going to have to weed these bad eggs out. 

[MPH]

4 hours ago, Lionator said:

But the wider point is, despite the Ukrainian government finally being democratic, there are still subsections of old school Soviet style thugs who are about. Neo-nazi’s, mafia hit men etc. Of course them taking their anger out on their Russian oppressors is hardly a tragedy but at some point, if Ukraine want to be in the EU/NATO, they’re going to have to weed these bad eggs out. 

 

so the point I’m trying to make is that this was done by Russians against Russia. Kind of like an insurrection. Ukraine has made huge strides recently with regards to corruption but yes, still some way to go. There’s very few countries that DONT have neo Nazis  within, put them in a war zone and under the spotlight and you can  see the evils of it more intensely. It’s only 10 years ago Ukraine embraced Western European ideology so let’s hope they continue to make the necessary progressive changes.

[LiberalFox]

This idea that Ukraine has a far right problem is really massively overblown as a result of Russian propaganda. The bigger issue is the level of corruption and the impact that might be having on the war and how it might set the future course of a liberated Ukraine. 

[NasPb]

9 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

This idea that Ukraine has a far right problem is really massively overblown as a result of Russian propaganda. The bigger issue is the level of corruption and the impact that might be having on the war and how it might set the future course of a liberated Ukraine. 

It does though mate. I have a moroccan friend (leicester fan as well) who was studying in Ukraine. Even before the war pretty massive issue. Always has been.. Both Russia and Ukraine do have a far right problem. I remember when they didn't let Nigerians flee from Ukraine because they were black. Shocking stuff. 

[MPH]

 

[casablancas]

Tanks moving across the border. FOR and RDC are really going for it. This is going to get hot. 

[Lionator]

On 26/05/2023 at 15:28, LiberalFox said:

This idea that Ukraine has a far right problem is really massively overblown as a result of Russian propaganda. The bigger issue is the level of corruption and the impact that might be having on the war and how it might set the future course of a liberated Ukraine. 

it’s not Russian propaganda. We’d better hope with all that weaponry that the old Azov don’t fancy Zelensky’s head post war!!

Edited 1 June 2023 by Lionator

[LiberalFox]

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

it’s not Russian propaganda. We’d better hope with all that weaponry that the old Azov don’t fancy Zelensky’s head post war!!

Just because something is true doesn't mean it can't be propaganda. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, LiberalFox said:

Just because something is true doesn't mean it can't be propaganda. 

Well that’s true. But the denial that Ukraine has a neo nazi problem is just creating an issue further down the line. 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Well that’s true. But the denial that Ukraine has a neo nazi problem is just creating an issue further down the line. 

 

im Not sure if anyone is saying they don’t have a neo nazi issue as such just that the hyperbolic nature of propaganda and war reporting can exaggerate and expand a problem to far greater than it was.

 

 

it’s also worth noting that for some the identity of being a Nazi is a symbol of opposition to Russia aggression  and rule that dates back to world war 2 times and is an identity more than an ideology.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

im Not sure if anyone is saying they don’t have a neo nazi issue as such just that the hyperbolic nature of propaganda and war reporting can exaggerate and expand a problem to far greater than it was.

 

 

it’s also worth noting that for some the identity of being a Nazi is a symbol of opposition to Russia aggression  and rule that dates back to world war 2 times and is an identity more than an ideology.

That rule dates back to before World War 2 seeing as Nazism was a direct response to Communism. The identity and ideology are inextricably linked. Which means there really cannot be justification for it, unless one considers Communism a worse ideology than Nazism - which some people might argue for.

 

Would certainly agree on the hyperbolic nature of propaganda and war reporting, mind you.

[MPH]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

That rule dates back to before World War 2 seeing as Nazism was a direct response to Communism. The identity and ideology are inextricably linked. Which means there really cannot be justification for it, unless one considers Communism a worse ideology than Nazism - which some people might argue for.

 

Would certainly agree on the hyperbolic nature of propaganda and war reporting, mind you.

 

well, they are to me and  you, of course, but we haven’t been fighting communism on a generational level  in the way that they have

 

but please accept my apologies if it came accross that I was in anyway attempting to justify or excuse any form of Nazism on any scale..

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

well, they are to me and  you, of course, but we haven’t been fighting communism on a generational level  in the way that they have

 

but please accept my apologies if it came accross that I was in anyway attempting to justify or excuse any form of Nazism on any scale..

No, I get the argument and it didn't come across that way. I just don't buy it because it's very easy for it *to* be used for justification in the way you describe, for the reasons above.

[LiberalFox]

I suppose it depends on what you consider to be a 'problem' which might be context specific. It does support Russia's strategy to make a big deal of it. 

[Captain...]

It's interesting to think back to the 2012 Panorama investigation into racism anti-Semitism and far right tendencies in Ukraine (and Poland) for the Euros. This was pre-Zelensky and Ukraine would have changed significantly in that time. Just interesting to look back on now.

 

Obviously any sort of far right issues in no way justify any of Russia's illegal invasions. 

[MPH]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

It's interesting to think back to the 2012 Panorama investigation into racism anti-Semitism and far right tendencies in Ukraine (and Poland) for the Euros. This was pre-Zelensky and Ukraine would have changed significantly in that time. Just interesting to look back on now.

 

Obviously any sort of far right issues in no way justify any of Russia's illegal invasions. 

 

I do feel like Ukraine are making changes and strides. I’ve noted many arrests of corrupt officials over the last couple of years..

[Dunge]

Worth noting it’s not like Putin isn’t spouting far right gibberish of his own every time he makes a speech. The Nazi accusation of Ukraine from Putin is largely symbolic. What he’s actually concerned about is Ukraine becoming Westernised, moving away from anything that’s pervasive to authoritarian leadership.