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Sampson

Ukraine

By Sampson, in General Chat

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Saigon Fox

Saigon Fox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, David Hankey said:

Do you Russian friends and colleagues consider this war? Do they even admit to the word invasion?

They can't or they may face 15 years in prison. I'm a teacher and we can't even talk about any of it in school due to the possible consequences. I'll tell you what though, I was speaking to a colleague who was in tears as she couldn't see what future her children might have due to the regime in Russia. 

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surrifox

surrifox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MPH said:

Now I know Putin is not a member of the communist party but he definitely has leanings in that direction.

 

 

he’s been on record as saying that the break up of the Soviet Union was  one of modern era’s greatest catastrophe…

 

and now we have this..

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin has likened Western sanctions on banks and oligarchs to a declaration of war. Moscow has also threatened to nationalise production plants or factories where work has been suspended.

 

 

Now this statement above is not tantamount  to communism in of itself, of course… it probably shows he has  socialist leanings of course. Now I know one of the comebacks will be that he’s just doing that  to keep the country and it’s economy ticking over, however my reply to that would “ do people honestly think he’ll return all the equipment and factories to their original owners upon conclusion of the war and eventual  lifting of sanctions?”

He may or may not ( personally I dont think he’ll be around for too much longer one way or another) but the west have frozen billions of dollars of Russian assets in Russian banks and other institutions which will remain unavailable to him until the situation unwinds a bit so I wouldn’t think the loss of some plant and stock etc would be unduly punitive or damaging 

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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I’ve heard is quoted that Putin enjoys 70% support in Russia. But how under the current circumstances would it be possible to conduct an unbiased poll? Wouldn’t people be scared to answer honestly?

I’d just assume any info coming out of Russia is probably not true. 

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WigstonWanderer

WigstonWanderer

Posted
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

I’d just assume any info coming out of Russia is probably not true. 

The 70% figure quoted by western news media seems to come from this source

 

https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

 

Even if they are a genuinely reputable organisation, I can’t see how it’s possible to conduct an unbiased poll in Putin’s Russia, where people may feel obliged to give a stock response for fear of getting into trouble.

Edited by WigstonWanderer
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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

The 70% figure quoted by western news media seems to come from this source

 

https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

 

Even if they are a genuinely reputable organisation, I can’t see how it’s possible to conduct an unbiased poll in Putin’s Russia, where people may feel obliged to give a stock response for fear of getting into trouble.

Oh yeah, totally agree. Either way, I imagine the 70% figure is inaccurate. 

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Blarmy said:

Oh yeah, totally agree. Either way, I imagine the 70% figure is inaccurate. 

Without a doubt, however we shouldn't ignore the fact that a huge part of the Russian population get their news from state controlled media, so they are not in a position to know the truth of what is happening.  The younger urban population are better connected of course, but even that is being restricted.  In my office their are two Russian sisters, one been in Australia for 10 years, watches western media, very sad for Ukraine and anti-Putin.  The other only in Australia for a few years, and gets her news from back home in Russia still.  Genuinely believes Putin is freeing Ukraine from Nazis, and that the operation is limited to the Donbass and protecting Crimea.

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Leicesterpool

Leicesterpool

Posted
Posted

I think if you went Russia, the people would say they adore him. But if you asked that same question again to the same people outside of Russia they give you a different answer. Its basically a death penalty to criticise him if you live there. But if you tried to fled to a different country from him he stills seems to get them as we've seen with that couple from Salisbury. Simply a dangerous man who I think is insane. Worse than Hitler? Hitler was evil, dangerous and racist, but you could at least escape his regime. Putin is far more powerful.

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

I think if you went Russia, the people would say they adore him. But if you asked that same question again to the same people outside of Russia they give you a different answer. 

With respect, that's a hell of a generalisation there. It really isn't that black and white and I think we have to be careful making assumptions from a western perspective when the reality is very complex. 

 

8 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

Its basically a death penalty to criticise him if you live there. 

That simply isn't true. Yes, freedom of speech is curtailed and it isn't a great career move to stand as an opposing candidate for Presidential election. Political opponents tread a dangerous path. There are many brave people and activists in Russia that have criticised Vladimir Putin's regime and are alive and well - others, not so fortunate. Many faced incarceration and intimidation. The story of 'Pussy Riot' is fascinating, and I believe most of the members have now been forced to leave Russia. Yes, in extreme cases, some of his critics/detractors have been killed, but although capital punishment is a legal penalty it is not permitted in Russia due to a moratorium, and no official executions nor death sentences have been carried out since August 2, 1996. Obviously, there are other means. Such as...

 

8 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

But if you tried to fled to a different country from him he stills seems to get them as we've seen with that couple from Salisbury. 

Depends upon who you are and what threat you carry. There are believed to have been well over a dozen state sponsored executions on UK soil of former Soviet and Russian officials, intelligence officers, dissidents, oligarchs and opponents. Sergai Skripal was targeted because of the secrets that he was divulging about the GRU and the structure of the Russian military. Unfortunately, his daughter was also a victim of the poisoning as were two members of the public. 

 

8 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

Simply a dangerous man who I think is insane. Worse than Hitler? Hitler was evil, dangerous and racist, but you could at least escape his regime. Putin is far more powerful.

I don't believe that he is "insane" and no, he isn't "worse than Hitler"...and why do you assume that it was easy to "escape" the Third Reich? Vladimir Putin is "more powerful" since he has nuclear capability. In spite of that, Hitler's ideology was and continues to pose a far greater threat to the world. 

Edited by Line-X
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weller54

weller54

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, Sly said:

NATO staying out of this is getting more awkward as the weeks go by. 

Russia have two thirds of their army fighting in Ukraine so they've left themselves vulnerable elsewhere.

Nato would obliterate them.. perhaps it's time to take the initiative.

How long can we sit on the sidelines and watch this massacre?

The nuclear threat will always be there so, as dangerous as it is, I think Nato should unleash its full power and destroy Russia and Putin.

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Foxdiamond

Foxdiamond

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Russia have two thirds of their army fighting in Ukraine so they've left themselves vulnerable elsewhere.

Nato would obliterate them.. perhaps it's time to take the initiative.

How long can we sit on the sidelines and watch this massacre?

The nuclear threat will always be there so, as dangerous as it is, I think Nato should unleash its full power and destroy Russia and Putin.

Not the answer. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Russia have two thirds of their army fighting in Ukraine so they've left themselves vulnerable elsewhere.

Nato would obliterate them.. perhaps it's time to take the initiative.

How long can we sit on the sidelines and watch this massacre?

The nuclear threat will always be there so, as dangerous as it is, I think Nato should unleash its full power and destroy Russia and Putin.

Can the logic behind this argument please be elaborated upon further? Is there somehow a reason Russia wouldn't use it's nuclear weapons now rather than before or in the future?

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Russia have two thirds of their army fighting in Ukraine so they've left themselves vulnerable elsewhere.

Nato would obliterate them.. perhaps it's time to take the initiative.

How long can we sit on the sidelines and watch this massacre?

The nuclear threat will always be there so, as dangerous as it is, I think Nato should unleash its full power and destroy Russia and Putin.

 

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Harpenden Fox

Harpenden Fox

Posted
Posted

I suspect the 'least worst' outcome here is for the Eastern regions of Ukraine, the Donbas, split from Ukraine to become East Ukraine, under the influence of Russia, leaving the rest of Ukraine to face towards Europe. Thus creating a 'new' border between Europe and Russia. A solution in which no one is completely happy, but further loss of life is minimised.

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kristianity77

kristianity77

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Not the answer. 

Whilst I agree it's not the answer.  There will be a point where it will be.  Putin cannot do as he pleases until he gets bored.

 

I've said it before the answer for me is to just cut Russia out of absolutely everything.  Anything in Russia that isn't Russian, close it. Deny them access to literally everything.  Don't sell them anything, don't buy anything off them.  Don't allow them to travel.

 

Do all this as a united world and allow them to rot.  

 

You don't have to bomb a country, to kill a country. 

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weller54

weller54

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, kristianity77 said:

Whilst I agree it's not the answer.  There will be a point where it will be.  Putin cannot do as he pleases until he gets bored.

 

I've said it before the answer for me is to just cut Russia out of absolutely everything.  Anything in Russia that isn't Russian, close it. Deny them access to literally everything.  Don't sell them anything, don't buy anything off them.  Don't allow them to travel.

 

Do all this as a united world and allow them to rot.  

 

You don't have to bomb a country, to kill a country. 

But Putin could still threaten to use nuclear weapons as he would see this as a declaration of War (albeit by economic means).. he's not just going to stand around and do nothing, especially if his Country gets to the stage you are suggesting...

.. what would he have to lose?

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kristianity77

kristianity77

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, weller54 said:

But Putin could still threaten to use nuclear weapons as he would see this as a declaration of War (albeit by economic means).. he's not just going to stand around and do nothing, especially if his Country gets to the stage you are suggesting...

.. what would he have to lose?

If he triggers nuclear weapons based on the fact that the whole world didn't want to have anything to do with Russia after this, then he would have pressed the button at some point anyway.

 

I know its dangerous times and worrying for a lot of people, but no matter what the outcome in Ukraine over the few weeks or so, Putin doesn't come out of this with anything left relationship wise with the vast majority of the world.  So therefore, he's going to press the nuke button anyway by all accounts.

 

The only way out of this where it doesn't escalate further is that the world let's him do what he wants to Ukraine then once thats finished, we allow things back to normal like it didn't occur.  That's simply never going to happen from where we are now. 

 

Russia are done as a country to the vast majority of the outside world for generations. 

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westernpark

westernpark

Posted
Posted

When this is finished and I think we will see an agreement soon, albeit it may not last for long, there will be some normalising of relations. There has to be unfortunately. It will be morally wrong on the basis of the past few months, but it is morally right on the basis of future generations. Russia said they want to go back to Cold War relations and I think that is what we’ll see. I am currently doing a degree that is related to this situation to an extent and I am sort of relaying what some of my lecturers are hinting at.  
An excellent article in the guardian today, about the hypocrisy of football towards the war in Yemen. Maybe we will see some condemnation and action on Newcastle owners as a result of what is happening in Ukraine.

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