Ukraine

[leicsmac]

Just now, Blarmy said:

Again, so what? Does something have to be unique to be shocking?

 

Do you console people mourning at funerals, or just point out that lots of other people have died?

Not at all.

 

I was, again, making the point that war, in pretty much any instance, dehumanises people.

 

I've no idea how that is apparently a controversial viewpoint.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Not at all.

 

I was, again, making the point that war, in pretty much any instance, dehumanises people.

 

I've no idea how that is apparently a controversial viewpoint.

Russian atrocities are on a mass scale and seem to be systematic. That is not true of every war or invasion. 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, bovril said:

Russian atrocities are on a mass scale and seem to be systematic. That is not true of every war or invasion. 

I agree, but that's not the discussion here - or mine, anyhow.

 

Pretty much every single war progresses to - if not starts with - at least one group that sees another group as less than human. When that/those groups act on their feeling by carrying out atrocities, that feeling of dehumanisation often spreads to other sides involved and also people just witnessing it all unfold. It's a plague of ill intent that is contagious in the worst possible way. And that is one of the truly terrible things about it because it makes decent people want to do (and often do) horrific things simply because they've seen it done to others that they empathise with.

 

If people are taking this angle as me somehow downplaying the Russian atrocities because it's "every war", then not a bit of it and I should have been clearer in my original posting, evidently. My entire point is the above observation - nothing more.

Edited 4 April 2022 by leicsmac

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I agree, but that's not the discussion here - or mine, anyhow.

 

Pretty much every single war progresses to - if not starts with - at least one group that sees another group as less than human. When that/those groups act on their feeling by carrying out atrocities, that feeling of dehumanisation often spreads to other sides involved and also people just witnessing it all unfold. It's a plague of ill intent that is contagious in the worst possible way. And that is one of the truly terrible things about it because it makes decent people want to do (and often do) horrific things simply because they've seen it done to others that they empathise with.

 

If people are taking this angle as me somehow downplaying the Russian atrocities because it's "every war", then not a bit of it and I should have been clearer in my original posting, evidently. My entire point is the above observation - nothing more.

The discussion where? I still don't totally get what point you're trying to make. Yeah war dehumanizes. What Russia is currently doing though is criminal, with what appears to be genocidal intent (though we are not there yet). So that's the discussion that is rightly taking place at the moment. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

The discussion where? I still don't totally get what point you're trying to make. Yeah war dehumanizes. What Russia is currently doing though is criminal, with what appears to be genocidal intent (though we are not there yet). So that's the discussion that is rightly taking place at the moment. 

The discussion that began with someone saying they were "watching [people being killed] without a sliver of remorse or mindfulness" and thus (probably) viewing them as less than human, because of the atrocities that those people had met upon another because they evidently viewed them as less than human too. An example of what I said above about how such an effect can spread.

 

Mine was an observation on this shitty truth behind war itself, and in no way detracts from or is meant to detract from the atrocities themselves. If other people continue to view it that way now...well,I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it.

[LiberalFox]

It's not really accurate to say war inevitably leads to war crimes. That's more of a philosophical or political belief. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

It's not really accurate to say war inevitably leads to war crimes. That's more of a philosophical or political belief. 

Are there many wars where it hasn't happened? Empiricism is the thing here.

 

NB. Apologies for continuing to take the topic away from how brutally nasty the Russians have been and are being.

[LiberalFox]

I think what is most shocking to me is that a lot of these likely war crimes were committed by Russia's regular army by units made up of contract soldiers. I feared there would be widespread ethnic cleansing and possibly genocide by members of the LNR and DNR separatists, groups of fighters with little professional military training and who have been in a prolonged conflict since 2014. I suspected there would be reprisals from pro-Ukrainian groups, especially those with links to the far right and / or little military training. 

 

Aside from the moral outrage, the fact supposedly elite members of the Russian armed forces have spent their time looting, murdering and allegedly raping show how utterly dysfunctional they are as a professional army. 

[LiberalFox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Are there many wars where it hasn't happened? Empiricism is the thing here.

 

NB. Apologies for continuing to take the topic away from how brutally nasty the Russians have been and are being.

I don't actually know. What is considered a war crime has changed throughout history. I do know that wars have been fought where both sides have attempted to enforce a code of conduct on their own soldiers. I also know plenty of soldiers who have engaged in war but don't dehumanise opposing forces outside of combat. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I don't actually know. What is considered a war crime has changed throughout history. I do know that wars have been fought where both sides have attempted to enforce a code of conduct on their own soldiers. I also know plenty of soldiers who have engaged in war but don't dehumanise opposing forces outside of combat. 

Absolutely, though "attempted" is the operative word there.

 

Perhaps I'm being overly cynical but I'm of the opinion that once the intestines start turning up outside of the body most of the "rules" of conduct of war and how one sees the "enemy" tend to end up being...well, guidelines rather than rules.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Russia is digging is it's own grave., courtesy of the monster, Putin.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

4 hours ago, bovril said:

Russian atrocities are on a mass scale and seem to be systematic. That is not true of every war or invasion. 

Yeah this. Blueprint of Russian warfare is pretty much drive in, fail at your original objectives because your gear is shit and morale non existent, then just use mass artillery to level anything in your path, then rape and pillage what's left. 

 

Hope international sanctions drive them back 80 years tbh. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

9 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Russia is digging is it's own grave., courtesy of the monster, Putin.

[Dahnsouff]

20 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Yeah this. Blueprint of Russian warfare is pretty much drive in, fail at your original objectives because your gear is shit and morale non existent, then just use mass artillery to level anything in your path, then rape and pillage what's left. 

 

Hope international sanctions drive them back 80 years tbh. 

So everyday Russians should be driven into poverty and ostracised due to an atrocity that was the pulled over their eyes as just? 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

12 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

So everyday Russians should be driven into poverty and ostracised due to an atrocity that was the pulled over their eyes as just? 

Yep. Are you suggesting we lift the sanctions? 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Yep. Are you suggesting we lift the sanctions? 

Now? No, but there must come a point where the well being of the Russian people comes into focus, and hopefully this is once Vladimir is deposed. I reject that the Russian people are complicit in this horror show was my point.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

49 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Now? No, but there must come a point where the well being of the Russian people comes into focus, and hopefully this is once Vladimir is deposed. I reject that the Russian people are complicit in this horror show was my point.

Depends who replaces him (as voted for by the Russian people). Silly to think whoever comes along next will be squeaky clean really.  

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Depends who replaces him (as voted for by the Russian people). Silly to think whoever comes along next will be squeaky clean really.  

Not convinced politics does squeaky clean where ever you are in the world, of course some areas are more deplorable than others

[Blarmy]

1 hour ago, Dahnsouff said:

Not convinced politics does squeaky clean where ever you are in the world, of course some areas are more deplorable than others

So other countries having dodgy politics should affect the global decision as to how to deal with Russia when this war ends?

[marbles]

2 hours ago, Blarmy said:

So other countries having dodgy politics should affect the global decision as to how to deal with Russia when this war ends?

No what he said at all.

 

He was basically saying that no governments are squeaky clean, so how can you expect the next regime in Russia to be.

[fuchsntf]

The fact We are just  Compromising , just proves We are shit. !! Dont it...

and We are shit We are letting 1000s die, just to make sure we  " the others" can still > at This Moment <  Stay alive a little longer.

 

This is like others in Another Dimension are using us for their entertainment...just to see how it pans out...

I mean look at what the Major nations have had These last 6-10 years has their leaders....Trump Never had a Natural Human walk or talk,

Boris antics, something out of N01 buffoonery from the Prisoner...I

Putin the Evil dick-Dastardly the last one of them all...

 

And Aussies actually becoming the Good guys...

& We still Love to Blame the Germans..

 

Maybe its my meds,  or I have died & this is my very own Purgatory

or my last pitching-site in hell ..because I am telling you something aint right..

Edited 4 April 2022 by fuchsntf

[WigstonWanderer]

5 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

So everyday Russians should be driven into poverty and ostracised due to an atrocity that was the pulled over their eyes as just? 

Nationalism is such a pernicious political tool, and has been used over and over and over again by regimes of various persuasions to manipulate its citizens into allowing heinous crimes. It is difficult to accept that everyday Russians are not at least partially complicit for allowing themselves to be manipulated in this way. They will bear the shame of these atrocities in the same way that the German people had to after the Second World War.

[Captain...]

12 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I agree, but that's not the discussion here - or mine, anyhow.

 

Pretty much every single war progresses to - if not starts with - at least one group that sees another group as less than human. When that/those groups act on their feeling by carrying out atrocities, that feeling of dehumanisation often spreads to other sides involved and also people just witnessing it all unfold. It's a plague of ill intent that is contagious in the worst possible way. And that is one of the truly terrible things about it because it makes decent people want to do (and often do) horrific things simply because they've seen it done to others that they empathise with.

 

If people are taking this angle as me somehow downplaying the Russian atrocities because it's "every war", then not a bit of it and I should have been clearer in my original posting, evidently. My entire point is the above observation - nothing more.

What's interesting here is that it has descended into that level of dehumanising so quickly when before all this most Russian and Ukrainian civilians would have viewed each other as equals, with a huge amount of shared interests and probably seen each other as close allies, and any differences is at a political level. Where this war hits home a lot more than other recent conflicts is that there is no defining characteristic of the conflict, this is not racial or religious or based on any ethnic group it is the desperate power grab of a deluded despot. 

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Captain... said:

What's interesting here is that it has descended into that level of dehumanising so quickly when before all this most Russian and Ukrainian civilians would have viewed each other as equals, with a huge amount of shared interests and probably seen each other as close allies, and any differences is at a political level. Where this war hits home a lot more than other recent conflicts is that there is no defining characteristic of the conflict, this is not racial or religious or based on any ethnic group it is the desperate power grab of a deluded despot. 

I think there is something of a sectarian background to it, but I don't know enough about it to really judge.

 

[Dahnsouff]

9 hours ago, Blarmy said:

So other countries having dodgy politics should affect the global decision as to how to deal with Russia when this war ends?

What @marbles said in response,to,your post was what I was suggesting