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Sampson

Ukraine

By Sampson, in General Chat

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MPH

MPH

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, rape is a war weapon and almost always has been.

 

It's terrible, of course, but not particularly shocking - just the nature of war itself. Mostly no rules (not when the propaganda is flowing and the guy you trained with is now on the ground with his innards suddenly visible) and not much in the way of honour...only, in rare circumstances, just a terrible necessity.


 

im not sure if you are referring to my post with this but just to be clear I was referring to an intercepted phone call in which a soldiers wife, based in Russia,   Completely away from the war, is talking about her husband raping Ukranian women and giving him permission to do so.. this wasn’t about a man who had just seen his friend shot to pieces but a casual conversation between a husband and his wife.

 

also, to avoid confusion what exactly  are you referring to as a terrible necessity?

Edited by MPH
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, MPH said:


 

im not sure if you are referring to my post with this but just to be clear I was referring to an intercepted phone call in which a soldiers wife, based in Russia,   Completely away from the war, is talking about her husband raping Ukranian women and giving him permission to do so.. this wasn’t about a man who had just seen his friend shot to pieces but a casual conversation between a husband and his wife.

 

also, to avoid confusion what exactly  are you referring to as a terrible necessity?

Nope, wasn't referring to you specifically, just the general discussion. It's a terrible truth that rape has been a facet of war ever since the idea of both existed. With respect to the specific example you posted, I would argue that the first part of what I said concerning propaganda is what has driven that guy to thinking he can do as he likes. The second part is just another way it happens.

 

WRT the second sentence, I am referring to war itself as, very, very, very occasionally, a dreadful necessity. World War II being the most salient example. Of course, there are far more examples of wars being unjustified and unnecessary than the other way around.

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MPH

MPH

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nope, wasn't referring to you specifically, just the general discussion. It's a terrible truth that rape has been a facet of war ever since the idea of both existed. With respect to the specific example you posted, I would argue that the first part of what I said concerning propaganda is what has driven that guy to thinking he can do as he likes. The second part is just another way it happens.

 

WRT the second sentence, I am referring to war itself as, very, very, very occasionally, a dreadful necessity. World War II being the most salient example. Of course, there are far more examples of wars being unjustified and unnecessary than the other way around.


 

it was actually his wife suggesting it to him he was acting quite surprised 

 

 

but I totally agree with your second point…. And thank you. For clarifying. Sometimes peace can only be found the other side of war..

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foxes21

foxes21

Posted
Posted
On 30/03/2022 at 04:18, Sly said:

Im also hoping it acts as a deterrent to the the likes of China and the stakes it proclaims in Taiwan, so reconsider invading. 

China have pretty much mastered the art of war. "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" - Sun Tzu.

 

It's possible China will try infiltrate the Taiwan elections in a couple years time and push for a regime that's in their favour. This is in order to complete the final phase of Xi's 'Two centenaries' goals by 2049 (1) and achieve the 'Chinese Dream' (2). The unification of Taiwan is paramount in the completion of the Two centenaries and although 2049 is a long way from now, Xi has stated he doesn't want the issue to be passed on from generation to generation (3). In regards to the upcoming Taiwan election in 2024, there are popular politicians such as Hou Yu-ih of the Kuomintang party (KMT), who support 'One China' policy (4) and the 1992 consensus (5) which whilst unpopular, could still be a potential threat to the DPP. The good news is the Democractic Progressive Party are still hugely popular in the polls and refuse any move for reunification. But then again things can change quickly in politics, as we've seen in our own country with the 2016 vote leave campaign.  

 

They have already infiltrated the Philippines 2022 election, in order to try end the maritime dispute (this is despite UNCLOS findings of Philippines sovereignty in the exclusive economic zones (6) and strongly deny China's 9-dash line claims saying they are against international law (7). Marcos Jnr (son of dictator Ferdinand Marcos) is leading the Philippines polls and he has ties to the CCP and has openly stated he rejects UNCLOS findings, will seek a 'deal' with China and prefers them over the US. China's 9-dash line claims brings the entire region of SEA into dispute.

 

Political infiltration and foreign investment is how China has gained so much influence in Africa and will soon reap the rewards with access to an abundance of minerals and resources.

 

If however, invading Taiwan with boots on the ground is the route China decides to take, their talks with the Saudis to trade some of their oil in Yuan could be vital (8). These talks have been on-going for many years now, but have accelerated since the pandemic. If talks are finally successful, it could give the Yuan a standing against the petrodollar making sanctions less effective, although this is disputed amongst some analysts.

 



 

Sources:

 

(1)

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

(6)

(7)

(8)

 

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 13/04/2022 at 02:22, leicsmac said:

Yeah, rape is a war weapon and almost always has been.

 

It's terrible, of course, but not particularly shocking - just the nature of war itself. Mostly no rules (not when the propaganda is flowing and the guy you trained with is now on the ground with his innards suddenly visible) and not much in the way of honour...only, in rare circumstances, just a terrible necessity.

Bit this isnt a war of old..Russians just Walked in and attacked Civilian sites/estates, without consequences or remorse..

These Attitudes belittle the crimes, that Ukrainian people...once more People like you & me,going through their normal Family,daily routine .

Who the fk were they the Ukrainian People threatening,

Another small-arsed despot getting his political-Rocks off, by murdering innocents without remorse or reply.

Then boom, crash, wallop, genocide at a gallop...

 

Dont undercook what in the name of Russia is being done & from the start,

  Think it  could be your Wife,your kids,your Grandma,your family...

your Roof over your head blown away, and you fking just Dont know why..!!

 

Don t put or declare these actions as the " NORM"...civilians being murdered & raped..  '.lest we forget'

& god forgive us.....by being able take that "by the Grace of God go I". attitude..

 

Ukraine Feeds Europe over many platforms,with Globalization

no Western powerful Country is any longer self-sufficient...ffs we cant even fetch flower

to bake our own bread...

 

1945-2022...hasnt our species , stepped up & moved forward & done well.....!!!!

I am ashamed & Feel useless...also seeing & Yes knowing, so called allies, are not delivering Basic & Military goods,

Like always politically, delibrately stuttering,evading, delaying ,putting needed armoury into the Ukraine...

Edited by fuchsntf
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Bit this isnt a war of old..Russians just Walked in and attacked Civilian sites/estates, without consequences or remorse..

These Attitudes belittle the crimes, that Ukrainian people...once more People like you & me,going through their normal Family,daily routine .

Who the fk were they the Ukrainian People threatening,

Another small-arsed despot getting his political-Rocks off, by murdering innocents without remorse or reply.

Then boom, crash, wallop, genocide at a gallop...

 

Dont undercook what in the name of Russia is being done & from the start,

  Think it  could be your Wife,your kids,your Grandma,your family...

your Roof over your head blown away, and you fking just Dont know why..!!

 

Don t put or declare these actions as the " NORM"...civilians being murdered & raped..  '.lest we forget'

& god forgive us.....by being able take that "by the Grace of God go I". attitude..

 

Ukraine Feeds Europe over many platforms,with Globalization

no Western powerful Country is any longer self-sufficient...ffs we cant even fetch flower

to bake our own bread...

 

1945-2022...hasnt our species , stepped up & moved forward & done well.....!!!!

I am ashamed & Feel useless...also seeing & Yes knowing, so called allies, are not delivering Basic & Military goods,

Like always politically, delibrately stuttering,evading, delaying ,putting needed armoury into the Ukraine...

...and the wars of old didn't involve the mass taking and sacking of cities with zero regard for the populace, despite that populace (sometimes) not being threatening at all?

 

I totally agree with your assessment of Putin and also the feeling of powerlessness and the sentiment that we are trying our damndest to regress as a species, but I stand by what I said regarding this war being shitty just like the vast majority of other shitty wars.

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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...and the wars of old didn't involve the mass taking and sacking of cities with zero regard for the populace, despite that populace (sometimes) not being threatening at all?

 

I totally agree with your assessment of Putin and also the feeling of powerlessness and the sentiment that we are trying our damndest to regress as a species, but I stand by what I said regarding this war being shitty just like the vast majority of other shitty wars.

But why constantly bring it up? This is a thread  about THIS war, and people are outraged by it. 
 

Do you think it’s only you that knows other atrocities have been carried out in the past?

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

But why constantly bring it up? This is a thread  about THIS war, and people are outraged by it. 
 

Do you think it’s only you that knows other atrocities have been carried out in the past?

Not at all, but as people seem bound and determined to point out that this war is somehow different, I'm going to point out that isn't accurate.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be outraged by this war, and people absolutely, unequivocally should be, I'll agree with that all day every day. A lie isn't one of those reasons.

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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not at all, but as people seem bound and determined to point out that this war is somehow different, I'm going to point out that isn't accurate.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be outraged by this war, and people absolutely, unequivocally should be, I'll agree with that all day every day. A lie isn't one of those reasons.

The last time you pointed something out, the OP said nothing about the incident being unique in history, or anything even hinting at that. He just expressed his own feelings on the matter. You then felt obliged to reply rape in this war wasn’t shocking, just because it’s happened before. I would argue that rape in war is always shocking, and warrants isolated discussion and sharing of feelings for each occurrence.

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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not at all, but as people seem bound and determined to point out that this war is somehow different, I'm going to point out that isn't accurate.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be outraged by this war, and people absolutely, unequivocally should be, I'll agree with that all day every day. A lie isn't one of those reasons.

Also, what lie are you referring to?

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

The last time you pointed something out, the OP said nothing about the incident being unique in history, or anything even hinting at that. He just expressed his own feelings on the matter. You then felt obliged to reply rape in this war wasn’t shocking, just because it’s happened before. I would argue that rape in war is always shocking, and warrants isolated discussion and sharing of feelings for each occurrence.

I would agree with the second part here, however I was making an general observation, which is why I didn't quote the OP and I clarified that in subsequent discussion.

 

25 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

Also, what lie are you referring to?

"But this isn't a war of old..."

 

I think that is simply inaccurate, in terms of the attitudes of the aggressor towards the oppressed and the ways they justify their horrible acts, if not the technology being used.

Such attitudes as an excuse for war have been used since time immemorial.

 

 If I might ask a question for a question, may I ask why the nature of this discussion appears to be a sticking point for you, as we have had similar discussions recently?

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Blarmy

Blarmy

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I would agree with the second part here, however I was making an general observation, which is why I didn't quote the OP and I clarified that in subsequent discussion.

 

"But this isn't a war of old..."

 

I think that is simply inaccurate, in terms of the attitudes of the aggressor towards the oppressed and the ways they justify their horrible acts, if not the technology being used.

Such attitudes as an excuse for war have been used since time immemorial.

 

 If I might ask a question for a question, may I ask why the nature of this discussion appears to be a sticking point for you, as we have had similar discussions recently?

Saying “this isn’t a war of old” isn’t a lie - it’s a fact, as it’s happening right now, in the present, rather than the past.

 

As for why it’s a sticking point, I simply have no idea why you feel the need to constantly point out that similar things have happened, in a different time and place, in a discussion about something that’s happening right now. Please reference my funeral analogy again if you’re still not getting it.

 

It seems to me that you have a personal agenda - some kind of “big picture” thing about the human species at a whole, that you feel needs to be juxtaposed against the current war. You’ve certainly spent a lot more effort cross referencing this war against history than you have discussing what’s going on in Ukraine on a daily basis.

 

Dunno, I just find it incredibly annoying watching the atrocities unfolding on TV one moment and reading your comments that it’s “not shocking, that it’s happened before, what about this, what about that, they did it too” monologue the next.

 

Could just be me but I’ll live with that. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

Saying “this isn’t a war of old” isn’t a lie - it’s a fact, as it’s happening right now, in the present, rather than the past.

 

As for why it’s a sticking point, I simply have no idea why you feel the need to constantly point out that similar things have happened, in a different time and place, in a discussion about something that’s happening right now. Please reference my funeral analogy again if you’re still not getting it.

 

It seems to me that you have a personal agenda - some kind of “big picture” thing about the human species at a whole, that you feel needs to be juxtaposed against the current war. You’ve certainly spent a lot more effort cross referencing this war against history than you have discussing what’s going on in Ukraine on a daily basis.

 

Dunno, I just find it incredibly annoying watching the atrocities unfolding on TV one moment and reading your comments that it’s “not shocking, that it’s happened before, what about this, what about that, they did it too” monologue the next.

 

Could just be me but I’ll live with that. 

Firstly, I appreciate the time taken to respond. Not everyone else would.

 

WRT the first part, if I wasn't clear enough when referring to "in terms of the attitudes of the aggressor towards the oppressed and the ways they justify their horrible acts" as the reason for that statement (as opposed to the temporal matters mentioned here) then I apologise.

 

WRT the second part, I'll happily admit that I am viewing this all in the context of a "bigger picture" rather than a solely "good grief aren't the Ruskies utterly terrible with what they're doing here" as the latter just seems patently obvious and like it or not the former does have some importance. Additionally, I'm not sure how well the funeral analogy works seeing as one is most often a highly personal event involving grief and the other is a nebulous, complex matter involving not only grief but geopolitics.

 

If you feel that analysis annoys you because there's not enough focus on just how terrible this all is (which of course it is), then fair enough - you're welcome to the viewpoint but I don't intend to apologise for viewing this whole thing in a wider lens, nor cease doing so. 

 

Once again, I appreciate your candor and time, and enjoy your day. :thumbup:

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...and the wars of old didn't involve the mass taking and sacking of cities with zero regard for the populace, despite that populace (sometimes) not being threatening at all?

 

I totally agree with your assessment of Putin and also the feeling of powerlessness and the sentiment that we are trying our damndest to regress as a species, but I stand by what I said regarding this war being shitty just like the vast majority of other shitty wars.

The modern past big  wars, even going before WWI...the First Moves were Military against military, as the Wars Moved on,

and I agree Civilians became the coincidently involved, then targetted...

just because of the fun of it, or incompetent mistakes..the British Empire History is Full of individual Officers going to far...

 

The Zulu wars & Indian mutiny, were not really wanted, by neither Government or Realm,But the guilty's actions were Softly quietly pushed to the side..

The smaller officers career ruined( still correct) but the high Officers Made even bigger careers & because of high level & Realm-contacts were pulled-up

but still Held their Commission to even higher office..

 

Putin started from the Offset & delibrately not just targetted, but with a Genocide approach from the beginning...!!!

In 2022 a more reasonable reasoning world & the so called stability of the big nations

My simple naivity still showing even after Working & travelling all corners of this darkenned planet..

you Meet all Peoples, you discover, no matter the Goverment, their lot ,wishes & Dreams are the same, & their vices...

At times like this, I remember all these Folk just going about their Business & daily routines...

Whether simple adobe abode, rough estates, mangrove or desert dwellings, well groomed hard earned or luxury abode or Ukraine life

This criminal Act of violence is beyond the richter-scale levels of any Crime against a neighbour....Because of Europes Social developed nature..

And on the whole I cant deny your stance, because.....its Now become modern Civilizations reality, God forgive us...> and I aint religous <

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

The modern past big  wars, even going before WWI...the First Moves were Military against military, as the Wars Moved on,

and I agree Civilians became the coincidently involved, then targetted...

just because of the fun of it, or incompetent mistakes..the British Empire History is Full of individual Officers going to far...

 

The Zulu wars & Indian mutiny, were not really wanted, by neither Government or Realm,But the guilty's actions were Softly quietly pushed to the side..

The smaller officers career ruined( still correct) but the high Officers Made even bigger careers & because of high level & Realm-contacts were pulled-up

but still Held their Commission to even higher office..

 

Putin started from the Offset & delibrately not just targetted, but with a Genocide approach from the beginning...!!!

In 2022 a more reasonable reasoning world & the so called stability of the big nations

My simple naivity still showing even after Working & travelling all corners of this darkenned planet..

you Meet all Peoples, you discover, no matter the Goverment, their lot ,wishes & Dreams are the same, & their vices...

At times like this, I remember all these Folk just going about their Business & daily routines...

Whether simple adobe abode, rough estates, mangrove or desert dwellings, well groomed hard earned or luxury abode or Ukraine life

This criminal Act of violence is beyond the richter-scale levels of any Crime against a neighbour....Because of Europes Social developed nature..

And on the whole I cant deny your stance, because.....its Now become modern Civilizations reality, God forgive us...> and I aint religous <

Fair to say, to be honest, apart from I would point out that civilians were legit spoils of war to be slaughtered or enslaved in ancient warfare, so non-combatants have always been a feature.

 

Safe to say I do agree with the last few sentences: often people from different nations have more in common with each other than the elites in their own country and in this supposedly more enlightened era one would think we wouldn't throw back to the terrible past in the way that we have...but sadly it isn't so.

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MPH

MPH

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

'Russian warship go **** yourself' warship is apparently so ****ed it's sinking.


 

New Russian warships will be fitted with glass bottoms so they can see old Russian warships...

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