Ukraine

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

it will possibly mean political isolation I’d imagine…   I don’t see  them being able to find any willing partners for a raft of more sanctions… probably throw them out of a few of the old boys clubs maybe..

Personally I'm thinking that there are corners of the world with the economic power and inclination necessary to help them beat the sanctions (headed up by China), but perhaps I'm a bit cynical there.

 

I do hope all of this doesn't end up with a Cold War bipolar world again.

[MPH]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Personally I'm thinking that there are corners of the world with the economic power and inclination necessary to help them beat the sanctions (headed up by China), but perhaps I'm a bit cynical there.

 

I do hope all of this doesn't end up with a Cold War bipolar world again.

 

Well if North Korea can do shady goods transfers out at sea then You have to be a realist and know that Russia, who we know much more valuable tradeable goods than North Korea, will find a way to trade. But it will be more difficult and their profits will at least be capped. Also, there’s a chance some countries ( probably not China) will be wary of their own sanctions if caught trading with Russia.  So, in short, they’ll find a way but it will be an inconvenience and they won’t make as much money. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61691816

 

Mixed feelings. On the one hand, the sooner the shooting stops the better for people who don't deserve to suffer and the Ukrainian rhetoric here just seems like a good way to get the world burning along with them. On the other, a settlement that allows Russia too much of what it wants sets a very bad precedent too.

[LiberalFox]

Honestly I think Macron should shut up. I guess he thinks he can make himself seem relevant by coming out with this appeasement nonsense ( French parliamentary elections are coming up ). 

[surrifox]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Honestly I think Macron should shut up. I guess he thinks he can make himself seem relevant by coming out with this appeasement nonsense ( French parliamentary elections are coming up ). 

He’s feeling a bit pi$$y because the opposition to Putin is centred on NATO rather than EU which he sees himself as de facto leader of now Angela has moved aside ( in a nutshell)

[Suzie the Fox]

Macron is a prat and this is not the 1st time he has controversially spoken out. (I guess like other people in power, except he seems to excel in it.)

[Lionator]

5 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Honestly I think Macron should shut up. I guess he thinks he can make himself seem relevant by coming out with this appeasement nonsense ( French parliamentary elections are coming up ). 

What’s the alternative? Ukraine continually fighting in the Donbas until it has no army left to defend the rest of the country? They need a settlement and one quickly. Biden and Johnson (especially!!) are only taking their positions for political capital, they don’t give a sh*t about Ukraine. Macron doesn’t have that pressure now so perhaps is seeing the situation more objectively for what it is. 

Edited 5 June 2022 by Lionator

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What’s the alternative? Ukraine continually fighting in the Donbas until it has no army left to defend the rest of the country? They need a settlement and one quickly. Biden and Johnson (especially!!) are only taking their positions for political capital, they don’t give a sh*t about Ukraine. Macron doesn’t have that pressure now so perhaps is seeing the situation more objectively for what it is. 

Yeah. An attitude of "We shall fight them on the beaches..." sounds good (especially if you win) but in this particular case it might not be the worst idea to at least start looking for a way out.

[Lionator]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah. An attitude of "We shall fight them on the beaches..." sounds good (especially if you win) but in this particular case it might not be the worst idea to at least start looking for a way out.

Zelenskyy has taken the initial defensive successes and his vision is pushing Russia completely out of the Donbas and Crimea, it’s completely unrealistic and the fact Truss is echoing this message shows that she’s an idiot, who is also using Ukraine for political clout. 
 

It sucks, it’s sh*t, Putin is a monster. But that’s it. Putin isn’t going to touch NATO territory (or else he already would’ve). We need to support negotiation of a peace deal which suits both parties. The longer this goes on, the more Ukraine will have to sacrifice. It’s not appeasement, it’s common sense. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Zelenskyy has taken the initial defensive successes and his vision is pushing Russia completely out of the Donbas and Crimea, it’s completely unrealistic and the fact Truss is echoing this message shows that she’s an idiot, who is also using Ukraine for political clout. 
 

It sucks, it’s sh*t, Putin is a monster. But that’s it. Putin isn’t going to touch NATO territory (or else he already would’ve). We need to support negotiation of a peace deal which suits both parties. The longer this goes on, the more Ukraine will have to sacrifice. It’s not appeasement, it’s common sense. 

Normally I'd want to be the idealist rather than pragmatist, but not on this particular matter.

[Salisbury Fox]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

What’s the alternative? Ukraine continually fighting in the Donbas until it has no army left to defend the rest of the country? They need a settlement and one quickly. Biden and Johnson (especially!!) are only taking their positions for political capital, they don’t give a sh*t about Ukraine. Macron doesn’t have that pressure now so perhaps is seeing the situation more objectively for what it is. 

If reports are true then Russia itself is struggling to raise combat effective troops hence why they are attacking over a much narrower front.  Perhaps HIMARS will make a difference, but it is too early to settle just yet. I don’t see any benefit from Russia being able to dictate Ukraine’s ability to export a significant proportion of the worlds food.  On the issue of Boris, who cares whether it is politically convenient to support Ukraine,

when it is the right thing to do. Besides we have been very supportive of Ukraine for years now so hardly something new.

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

Zelenskyy has taken the initial defensive successes and his vision is pushing Russia completely out of the Donbas and Crimea, it’s completely unrealistic and the fact Truss is echoing this message shows that she’s an idiot, who is also using Ukraine for political clout. 
 

It sucks, it’s sh*t, Putin is a monster. But that’s it. Putin isn’t going to touch NATO territory (or else he already would’ve). We need to support negotiation of a peace deal which suits both parties. The longer this goes on, the more Ukraine will have to sacrifice. It’s not appeasement, it’s common sense. 

I agree that it is going to be very difficult to push the Russians out of defensive positions, but a lot of efforts being undertaken now are about providing time to train and equip forces to have an effect in the future. Now is not the time to lose our nerve and be divided.

[Lionator]

21 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

If reports are true then Russia itself is struggling to raise combat effective troops hence why they are attacking over a much narrower front.  Perhaps HIMARS will make a difference, but it is too early to settle just yet. I don’t see any benefit from Russia being able to dictate Ukraine’s ability to export a significant proportion of the worlds food.  On the issue of Boris, who cares whether it is politically convenient to support Ukraine,

when it is the right thing to do. Besides we have been very supportive of Ukraine for years now so hardly something new.

I agree that it is going to be very difficult to push the Russians out of defensive positions, but a lot of efforts being undertaken now are about providing time to train and equip forces to have an effect in the future. Now is not the time to lose our nerve and be divided.

I don’t think it’s being divided, it’s being realistic. The west and Ukraine succeeded in defending the whole country and Russia know that’s probably not attainable to take the whole of Ukraine UNLESS Ukraine want an arm wrestling match. They need a functioning army and/or a peace deal. Now is the time to push for it. 

[Salisbury Fox]

2 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I don’t think it’s being divided, it’s being realistic. The west and Ukraine succeeded in defending the whole country and Russia know that’s probably not attainable to take the whole of Ukraine UNLESS Ukraine want an arm wrestling match. They need a functioning army and/or a peace deal. Now is the time to push for it. 

I don’t believe that there is a credible threat to take the entire country any longer given the struggles Russia continues to have. I accept that a diplomatic solution is inevitable and by keeping diplomatic channels open it makes the West look like they are open to ending this. I just don’t think we are anywhere near that stage yet.  Things can change very quickly, and I hope that a longer range artillery threat will help quell the current tactics being employed and be an actual game changer.
 

It will be interesting to see what Ukraine will be happy to cede in pursuit of peace, but they will also be wary that such a move would encourage Russia to make further moves in the future.

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah. An attitude of "We shall fight them on the beaches..." sounds good (especially if you win) but in this particular case it might not be the worst idea to at least start looking for a way out.

Also, we fought them on the beaches and could get USA and a still considerable empire behind us.

 

If other countries had been willing to get involved, this would have been over weeks ago. However, Putin has a nuke or two and he's not afraid to use it. Apparently.

Edited 5 June 2022 by Trav Le Bleu

[yorkie1999]

So, apparently we are now going to supply long range mrls to Ukraine which has in return caused Putin to respond by declaring that cities around the world could be targeted.  A couple of things. Is Mr Wallace prepared to take responsibility of London being hit by hypersonic missiles and why even anounce it in the first place?

[westernpark]

14 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

So, apparently we are now going to supply long range mrls to Ukraine which has in return caused Putin to respond by declaring that cities around the world could be targeted.  A couple of things. Is Mr Wallace prepared to take responsibility of London being hit by hypersonic missiles and why even anounce it in the first place?

Where has Putin said cities around the world could be targeted? I thought he was purposely being vague when he said other targets could be hit, in an attempt to create unnecessary panic in the West. In reality he means targets in Ukraine.

[Countryfox]

God that Mr Walllace is a madman !!!   Long range missiles ffs !!!    We should let Mr Putin carry on wiping out a whole western country, razing it's cities to the ground, killing as many of it's civilians as possible, raping looting and pillaging along the way ...  with no special regard to women children the old or the infirm.  And at the same time cause a massive refugee problem and starve half the planet ..    Perhaps if we drop all the sanctions he might stop after he's obliterated Ukraine and not wipe out any other countries before he dies of cancer ...      Sorry I've got to stop now and rush to the bathroom ...   just typing this scary stuff has affected my bowels ...   

[The Fox Covert]

7 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

God that Mr Walllace is a madman !!!   Long range missiles ffs !!!    We should let Mr Putin carry on wiping out a whole western country, razing it's cities to the ground, killing as many of it's civilians as possible, raping looting and pillaging along the way ...  with no special regard to women children the old or the infirm.  And at the same time cause a massive refugee problem and starve half the planet ..    Perhaps if we drop all the sanctions he might stop after he's obliterated Ukraine and not wipe out any other countries before he dies of cancer ...      Sorry I've got to stop now and rush to the bathroom ...   just typing this scary stuff has affected my bowels ...   

I love the irony of it. Wallace is ex military and unlike most of the Tory cabinet actually did a real job before going into politics. Long range guided missiles will save lives in the long run because if the supply lines to the Russian army are constantly disrupted the front line will eventually collapse through lack of resources and the Ukrainian army will be able to start retaking territory. The Ukrainians will not give up and the alternative to giving them better weapons will be a long drawn-out war, quite probably for years, which will have long-lasting effects on the world's food supply and the economies of Western Europe and Russia alike.

[LiberalFox]

4 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

I love the irony of it. Wallace is ex military and unlike most of the Tory cabinet actually did a real job before going into politics. Long range guided missiles will save lives in the long run because if the supply lines to the Russian army are constantly disrupted the front line will eventually collapse through lack of resources and the Ukrainian army will be able to start retaking territory. The Ukrainians will not give up and the alternative to giving them better weapons will be a long drawn-out war, quite probably for years, which will have long-lasting effects on the world's food supply and the economies of Western Europe and Russia alike.

Finally something sensible. The sooner Putin can see there is no hope of a military victory, the sooner the chance a workable peace can be achieved. 

[Countryfox]

9 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

I love the irony of it. Wallace is ex military and unlike most of the Tory cabinet actually did a real job before going into politics. Long range guided missiles will save lives in the long run because if the supply lines to the Russian army are constantly disrupted the front line will eventually collapse through lack of resources and the Ukrainian army will be able to start retaking territory. The Ukrainians will not give up and the alternative to giving them better weapons will be a long drawn-out war, quite probably for years, which will have long-lasting effects on the world's food supply and the economies of Western Europe and Russia alike.

 

And just as importantly in the short term it will push back the Russians long range artillery and save hundreds of lives, both military and civilian. His only plan is to blow towns to bits then let the tanks and infantry roll in to mop up ...  not sure if he has a plan B.   

[Joe90lcfc]

25 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

I love the irony of it. Wallace is ex military and unlike most of the Tory cabinet actually did a real job before going into politics. Long range guided missiles will save lives in the long run because if the supply lines to the Russian army are constantly disrupted the front line will eventually collapse through lack of resources and the Ukrainian army will be able to start retaking territory. The Ukrainians will not give up and the alternative to giving them better weapons will be a long drawn-out war, quite probably for years, which will have long-lasting effects on the world's food supply and the economies of Western Europe and Russia alike.

Good post 

[deep blue]

4 hours ago, The Fox Covert said:

I love the irony of it. Wallace is ex military and unlike most of the Tory cabinet actually did a real job before going into politics. Long range guided missiles will save lives in the long run because if the supply lines to the Russian army are constantly disrupted the front line will eventually collapse through lack of resources and the Ukrainian army will be able to start retaking territory. The Ukrainians will not give up and the alternative to giving them better weapons will be a long drawn-out war, quite probably for years, which will have long-lasting effects on the world's food supply and the economies of Western Europe and Russia alike.

Great Post.  To those who are pushing the idea of a negotiated settlement, whilst that would be the ideal outcome I can see no compromise that would be acceptable to either side. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61714234

 

Anyone else getting an early 60s/80s vibe from this? It's like something out of Thirteen Days or the second season of For All Mankind.

[SpacedX]

21 hours ago, Joe90lcfc said:

Good post 

[gerblod]

As long as Ukrainians are willing to fight and pro-Ukraine countries continue to supply materiel, then this is the best opportunity to rid ourselves of a regime which is truly barbaric in deed, yet, more importantly, in its oppressive thinking and immorality.

Ukraine is fighting a massively larger country with one hand behind its back, while the Putin regime continue to threaten any state which overtly tries to even things up. Russian supply lines and depots and all those other important centres on Russian soil should be subjected to the same treatment as has been meted out. 

Putin, Lavrov and all those other rogues and liars within the ruling circle, had they been tried at the postwar trials at Nuremberg, would have been found guilty of war crimes and hung. As it is they are protected and will never be tried for their crimes.

Putin is attempting to bully every country which is aiding Ukraine. Hitler did the same with many more countries. Had a united front been presented to him he would have backed down and drifted into obscurity. This is an opportunity, not only to help Ukraine, but to alter the way in which countries behave to each other. The hardships we might face, will face, could lead, given the right leadership, to a more equable world.