Ukraine

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-62970683

 

Putin again reveals he's the world's biggest hypocrite. Partial mobilisation mostly blamed on protecting Russia's "territory" and how it's all the west's fault. 

 

Also strongly claims NATO is the one suggesting to use nukes when it's Putin that pulls that card whenever threatened. Don't listen to a word they say and keep pushing.

Yeah, it's classic projection - accuse the opposition of what you do yourself.

 

However, if they do go ahead with these sham referendums and the regions become "part of Russia" in their eyes, then everyone everywhere had better hope that Putin is bluffing when it comes to use of WMD to defend them. Not knowing either way, it would become a much higher-stakes game.

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, it's classic projection - accuse the opposition of what you do yourself.

 

However, if they do go ahead with these sham referendums and the regions become "part of Russia" in their eyes, then everyone everywhere had better hope that Putin is bluffing when it comes to use of WMD to defend them. Not knowing either way, it would become a much higher-stakes game.

You always have a ‘however’ Mac .. 

 

The stakes are high cus he is losing. The stakes are high cus his egotistical empire might suffer and the scrotes might rebel. The stakes are high cus he has no other alternative.  So ..  keep calm hold your nerve, and carry on. 
 

Back in the real world ..  the mobilisation of 300,000 reservists sounds impressive but in reality these are people with limited experience who don’t actually want to go there ..  and to get them organised will take quite a long time.  My worry is that they will dig in along the best defensive lines they can find and use banned weapons to keep the Ukrainians at bay. That would generate a massive protest from the west but not actually lead to an all out war .. and then things would slowly grind to a stop. They will have pinched another chunk of Ukraine and that will be a ‘great victory’. He will of course tell the scotes black is white and be lauded as a real tough leader feared by all in the west.  Funny how oil and gas are no longer mentioned ..  

[David Hankey]

Putin is proving he is the madman we all know he is. A rabid dog cornered will always strike back.

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, David Hankey said:

Putin is proving he is the madman we all know he is. A rabid dog cornered will always strike back.

He isn’t mad ..  and he isn’t rabid ..  he is good at bullying and threatening. At the end of the day he is still the richest man in the world ..  and who would risk that by nuclear destruction. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

You always have a ‘however’ Mac .. 

 

The stakes are high cus he is losing. The stakes are high cus his egotistical empire might suffer and the scrotes might rebel. The stakes are high cus he has no other alternative.  So ..  keep calm hold your nerve, and carry on. 
 

Back in the real world ..  the mobilisation of 300,000 reservists sounds impressive but in reality these are people with limited experience who don’t actually want to go there ..  and to get them organised will take quite a long time.  My worry is that they will dig in along the best defensive lines they can find and use banned weapons to keep the Ukrainians at bay. That would generate a massive protest from the west but not actually lead to an all out war .. and then things would slowly grind to a stop. They will have pinched another chunk of Ukraine and that will be a ‘great victory’. He will of course tell the scotes black is white and be lauded as a real tough leader feared by all in the west.  Funny how oil and gas are no longer mentioned ..  

Right. Weapons that have the power to devastate the world if they are used should tend to generate a few "howevers" when used in discussion rather than being dismissed out of hand, IMO. It's only the end of the world, after all.

 

For what it's worth, I do agree with your general assessment in the final paragraph here. I do wonder that at that point of slowly grinding to a stop, whether or not the powers supporting Ukraine would be willing to escalate when they saw Putin using those banned weapons.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Countryfox said:

He isn’t mad ..  and he isn’t rabid ..  he is good at bullying and threatening. At the end of the day he is still the richest man in the world ..  and who would risk that by nuclear destruction. 

No one sane. And for all his faults, as you say, he is sane.

 

Unless the choice is only between that and his own direct fall, that is. Then things might get a bit interesting.

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Right. Weapons that have the power to devastate the world if they are used should tend to generate a few "howevers" when used in discussion rather than being dismissed out of hand, IMO. It's only the end of the world, after all.

 

For what it's worth, I do agree with your general assessment in the final paragraph here. I do wonder that at that point of slowly grinding to a stop, whether or not the powers supporting Ukraine would be willing to escalate when they saw Putin using those banned weapons.

I’ve not dismissed them out of hand at all ..  there is a very very very (x infinity) slight chance he might go nuclear ..  but what are we supposed to do ..  all run off shitting our pants as we go. 
 

Im glad you agree with the final paragraph and although it is going to be one awful shit show with massive loss of life it may be the only answer if he does that. The best option is somehow he is removed from office and the Ukrainians get back all their land ..  I fear the former though.  

[Countryfox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

No one sane. And for all his faults, as you say, he is sane.

 

Unless the choice is only between that and his own direct fall, that is. Then things might get a bit interesting.

Yes and as I’ve said I think that will be use of banned weapons ..  in all their forms ..

[Countryfox]

Very interesting read ..  know your enemy .. 

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

35 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

I’ve not dismissed them out of hand at all ..  there is a very very very (x infinity) slight chance he might go nuclear ..  but what are we supposed to do ..  all run off shitting our pants as we go. 
 

Im glad you agree with the final paragraph and although it is going to be one awful shit show with massive loss of life it may be the only answer if he does that. The best option is somehow he is removed from office and the Ukrainians get back all their land ..  I fear the former though.  

Not at all, but factor them into the argument, as that chance will only get bigger the more events make the guy think he's going to end up dead on a hook.

 

Which leads to the below...

 

33 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Yes and as I’ve said I think that will be use of banned weapons ..  in all their forms ..

I agree.

 

Which is why, as distasteful as it may be, an out has to be given to Russia once the war is won. If they're backed into a corner where the only choice is the collapse of the Russian state (or the removal of Putin while he still has a loyal base) and nuclear holocaust...well, we don't want anyone in a position where that choice is the situation.

 

Of course, the best thing would be, as you say, if he has an "accident" sometime between now and then which renders the whole thing moot, but we can't rely on that.

[String fellow]

45 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Putin is proving he is the madman we all know he is. A rabid dog cornered will always strike back.

Volga Olga, Putin's buddy on Russian state tv said on Monday that they should have nuked the UK during the Queen's funeral, the thinking being that it would have taken out many of the world's rulers in one go and turned these islands into a Martian desert. Personally, I think they are more likely to target us with submarine-launched cruise missiles as an opening salvo, to test our resolve/response. Either way, this feels like an extremely dangerous time to be a resident of the UK, especially as the Russians seem think that we're the driving force behind Ukraine's fierce resistance.

[Countryfox]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not at all, but factor them into the argument, as that chance will only get bigger the more events make the guy think he's going to end up dead on a hook.

 

Which leads to the below...

 

I agree.

 

Which is why, as distasteful as it may be, an out has to be given to Russia once the war is won. If they're backed into a corner where the only choice is the collapse of the Russian state (or the removal of Putin while he still has a loyal base) and nuclear holocaust...well, we don't want anyone in a position where that choice is the situation.

 

Of course, the best thing would be, as you say, if he has an "accident" sometime between now and then which renders the whole thing moot, but we can't rely on that.

 Just a quick point .. I’m out and about at the moment .  Re your last sentence ..  Putin is Russia and so if someone behind him or a group behind him give him the big heave ho ..  the ‘new man’ can change things completely and just blame Putin for the mess ..  ie withdraw from Ukraine ..  they’ll still have all their power can plan something different for the future having learnt some lessons to use along the way ..  and do it in such a way as to save face .. they could even reopen the gas pipes !!   To these guys it is all about power and wealth ..  nothing else. 

[Countryfox]

5 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Volga Olga, Putin's buddy on Russian state tv said on Monday that they should have nuked the UK during the Queen's funeral, the thinking being that it would have taken out many of the world's rulers in one go and turned these islands into a Martian desert. Personally, I think they are more likely to target us with submarine-launched cruise missiles as an opening salvo, to test our resolve/response. Either way, this feels like an extremely dangerous time to be a resident of the UK, especially as the Russians seem think that we're the driving force behind Ukraine's fierce resistance.

Next flight to South America or Africa if I was you mate ..  

[westernpark]

6 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Volga Olga, Putin's buddy on Russian state tv said on Monday that they should have nuked the UK during the Queen's funeral, the thinking being that it would have taken out many of the world's rulers in one go and turned these islands into a Martian desert. Personally, I think they are more likely to target us with submarine-launched cruise missiles as an opening salvo, to test our resolve/response. Either way, this feels like an extremely dangerous time to be a resident of the UK, especially as the Russians seem think that we're the driving force behind Ukraine's fierce resistance.

I wouldn’t worry about the comment, as there was likely to be very little thinking behind it. Most likely said to provoke reactions. However, I agree that we seem to be a symbol for their aggression towards the West. I am not worried yet, but as has been mentioned previously, a golden bridge should always be on the table for Putin/Russia. It’s not an ideal situation to be part of, but is a consequence of the existence of nuclear weapons.

[st albans fox]

going back to realpolitik, the Russians need to leave with something.  That could simply be pretty much what they started with - the annexation of crimea.  
 

I could even see the Donbas returned to ukraine in a treaty to end this war. 
 

zelenksy obviously is saying that Russia must leave every last square metre of ukraine - I don’t see that as a practical solution. I think the west will lean on him to make a peace deal of some kind that gives vlad a sell at home. 

 

putin will be politically weakened immeasurably and the west will hope that what follows will be someone trustworthy who they can actually deal with. If putin is ousted then the vacuum could well see someone equally as grim replace him.
 

 

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

going back to realpolitik, the Russians need to leave with something.  That could simply be pretty much what they started with - the annexation of crimea.  
 

I could even see the Donbas returned to ukraine in a treaty to end this war. 
 

zelenksy obviously is saying that Russia must leave every last square metre of ukraine - I don’t see that as a practical solution. I think the west will lean on him to make a peace deal of some kind that gives vlad a sell at home. 

 

putin will be politically weakened immeasurably and the west will hope that what follows will be someone trustworthy who they can actually deal with. If putin is ousted then the vacuum could well see someone equally as grim replace him.
 

 

It’s either that or you go after him and make him a martyr domestically and all his lies to the Russian public come to pass and we come back here in 10 years or so

[David Hankey]

4 hours ago, Countryfox said:

He isn’t mad ..  and he isn’t rabid ..  he is good at bullying and threatening. At the end of the day he is still the richest man in the world ..  and who would risk that by nuclear destruction. 

I didn't say HE was rabid, however, he is a clever madman.

[Parafox]

3 hours ago, String fellow said:

Volga Olga, Putin's buddy on Russian state tv said on Monday that they should have nuked the UK during the Queen's funeral, the thinking being that it would have taken out many of the world's rulers in one go and turned these islands into a Martian desert. Personally, I think they are more likely to target us with submarine-launched cruise missiles as an opening salvo, to test our resolve/response. Either way, this feels like an extremely dangerous time to be a resident of the UK, especially as the Russians seem think that we're the driving force behind Ukraine's fierce resistance.

Do you think the Russians would jeopardise their billions invested in London properties? I very much doubt it, sanctions or not.

[kenny]

7 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Do you think the Russians would jeopardise their billions invested in London properties? I very much doubt it, sanctions or not.

With the sanctions they have lost most of them and an awful lot more anyway. It probably makes London more of a target.

[weller54]

4 hours ago, String fellow said:

Volga Olga, Putin's buddy on Russian state tv said on Monday that they should have nuked the UK during the Queen's funeral, the thinking being that it would have taken out many of the world's rulers in one go and turned these islands into a Martian desert. Personally, I think they are more likely to target us with submarine-launched cruise missiles as an opening salvo, to test our resolve/response. Either way, this feels like an extremely dangerous time to be a resident of the UK, especially as the Russians seem think that we're the driving force behind Ukraine's fierce resistance.

Everything and everybody would be wiped out, except......

 

...

...

The indestructible Midget!

[jbloggs]

Isn't Putin now having to buy weapons from North Korea

[Lionator]

5 hours ago, st albans fox said:

going back to realpolitik, the Russians need to leave with something.  That could simply be pretty much what they started with - the annexation of crimea.  
 

I could even see the Donbas returned to ukraine in a treaty to end this war. 
 

zelenksy obviously is saying that Russia must leave every last square metre of ukraine - I don’t see that as a practical solution. I think the west will lean on him to make a peace deal of some kind that gives vlad a sell at home. 

 

putin will be politically weakened immeasurably and the west will hope that what follows will be someone trustworthy who they can actually deal with. If putin is ousted then the vacuum could well see someone equally as grim replace him.
 

 

They’ve destroyed their military for this, so it really is now or never for Putin. Experts I’ve seen on Twitter suggest it’ll be 15-20 before Russia could rebuild as a force, in which time Putin will probably be dead. 
 

And I agree with your last statement. If anything Putin is rather rational compared to some of the nutters in his ear. Patrushev in particular. 

[LCFCCHRIS]

We've all seen time and time again the threat of nuclear. Honestly I doubt they'd even go nuclear if the British army themselves invaded Russia (obviously wouldn't ever happen at this stage).

No matter what Putin says, it IS a bluff. One I'd be happy for Ukraine to call if it's between capturing back their OWN territory or letting Russia annex what he pleases with sham referenda 

[fox_favourite]

I don’t get how blatant this all is. It’s the west threatening nuclear war…Putin was the first to mention it on 24th Feb ON CAMERA and broadcast to Russian people and have done all the way through. Also their media realising videos on how they’ll destroy the UK with nukes. But it’s the west that is threatening. Talking about integrity of territory and boarders, yet he invaded Ukraine. Calling Ukrainians brothers, then blowing up towns/cities and residential areas, but that’s the West. He carries out the war and force Ukrainians to live by Russian laws…but it’s the west forcing this. 
 

If Russia never invaded, Finland and Sweden wouldn’t ask to be part of NATO. If Russia didn’t invade Ukraine they wouldn’t be any sanctions on Russia. Is they didn’t invade the food supplies wouldn’t be affected for the countries that actually need it. 
 

Im not saying ‘the West’ isn’t blameless in all this, of course they are part of the issue, but it’s the lies that they keep saying to Russian people and they just have to accept it. Can’t call him out for fear of repercussions of the extreme kind. just wrong the whole thing. 
 

Too many people have died, on both sides for what? A man/men that think they can be bullies. Just think of all the Russian soldiers that have died with some probably doesn’t even want to be there in the first place. War is fought by people who don’t want to kill other people but have to for some old men that want to be all powerful. It’s sickening. 

Edited 21 September 2022 by fox_favourite

[westernpark]

1 minute ago, fox_favourite said:

I don’t get how blatant this all is. It’s the west threatening nuclear war…Putin was the first to mention it on 24th Feb ON CAMERA and broadcast to Russian people and have done all the way through. Also they’re media realising videos on how they’ll destroy the UK with nukes. But it’s the west that is threatening. Talking about integrity of territory and boarders, yet he invaded Ukraine. Calling Ukrainians brothers, then blowing up towns/cities and residential areas, but that’s the West. He carries out the war and force Ukrainians to live by Russian laws…but it’s the west forcing this. 
 

If Russia never invaded, Finland and Sweden wouldn’t ask to be part of NATO. If Russia didn’t invade Ukraine they wouldn’t be any sanctions on Russia. Is they didn’t invade the food supplies wouldn’t be affected for the countries that actually need it. 
 

Im not saying ‘the West’ isn’t blameless in all this, of course they are part of the issue, but it’s the lies that they keep saying to Russian people and they just have to accept it. Can’t call him out for fear of repercussions of the extreme kind. just wrong the whole thing. 

We effectively didn’t act tough enough in response to his previous actions. He has been shocked by the collective reaction, to what he believed would be a straightforward invasion. He has to blame someone and give an excuse that is not his failings for the reasons for the mobilisation of the reservists and so on.