Ukraine

[Lionator]

13 minutes ago, fox_favourite said:

I don’t get how blatant this all is. It’s the west threatening nuclear war…Putin was the first to mention it on 24th Feb ON CAMERA and broadcast to Russian people and have done all the way through. Also their media realising videos on how they’ll destroy the UK with nukes. But it’s the west that is threatening. Talking about integrity of territory and boarders, yet he invaded Ukraine. Calling Ukrainians brothers, then blowing up towns/cities and residential areas, but that’s the West. He carries out the war and force Ukrainians to live by Russian laws…but it’s the west forcing this. 
 

If Russia never invaded, Finland and Sweden wouldn’t ask to be part of NATO. If Russia didn’t invade Ukraine they wouldn’t be any sanctions on Russia. Is they didn’t invade the food supplies wouldn’t be affected for the countries that actually need it. 
 

Im not saying ‘the West’ isn’t blameless in all this, of course they are part of the issue, but it’s the lies that they keep saying to Russian people and they just have to accept it. Can’t call him out for fear of repercussions of the extreme kind. just wrong the whole thing. 
 

Too many people have died, on both sides for what? A man/men that think they can be bullies. Just think of all the Russian soldiers that have died with some probably doesn’t even want to be there in the first place. War is fought by people who don’t want to kill other people but have to for some old men that want to be all powerful. It’s sickening. 

It’s just propaganda for Russian people. Don’t overthink it. He knows he’s lying but it’s not us he’s trying to convince to go and put our life on the line for what is quite frankly a pointless cause. 

[yorkie1999]

I think Putin is flogging a bit of a dead horse with mobilisation, for a start we’re living in a different time to 50 years ago. with globalisation, the call to arms is something from the past, it might work in China but I think Russia is too modern. Conscription is ok if you have a real enemy and you hate them, do normal Russians hate Ukrainians?  

[Parafox]

300,000 (reluctant) conscripts, potentially, but no weapons or training for them. Never going to happen. Never going to be a threat to Ukraine. Just more rhetoric from the Putin cabal.

Edited 21 September 2022 by Parafox

[yorkie1999]

People knock the royal family but ain’t it nice to have someone who’s over the politicians who has the ultimate say in things but never has to use their power.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

We've all seen time and time again the threat of nuclear. Honestly I doubt they'd even go nuclear if the British army themselves invaded Russia (obviously wouldn't ever happen at this stage).

No matter what Putin says, it IS a bluff. One I'd be happy for Ukraine to call if it's between capturing back their OWN territory or letting Russia annex what he pleases with sham referenda 

I would really like to know where the confidence in folks saying this actually comes from, especially if Putin is put into a situation where it's that or a body bag for him. Does anyone really think he'd just go quietly to death and disgrace? What would the future matter to him - he would know he'd be dead either way.

 

AFAIC we simply don't know what the man will do (other than the standing orders which say explicitly nuclear weapons will be used if the survival of the state is threatened) so it's best to consider all options and not dismiss any.

Edited 22 September 2022 by leicsmac

[yorkie1999]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I would really like to know where the confidence in folks saying this actually comes from, especially if Putin is put into a situation where it's that or a body bag for him. Does anyone really think he'd just go quietly to death and disgrace? What would the future matter to him - he would know he'd be dead either way.

 

AFAIC we simply don't know what the man will do (other than the standing orders which say explicitly nuclear weapons will be used if the survival of the state is threatened) so it's best to consider all options and not dismiss any.

Depends on what he actually means by survival of the state. Does that refer to an actual threat, or invasion of Russia, or a threat to the ideology of Russia in that democracy is a threat to the Russian state.

[yorkie1999]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I would really like to know where the confidence in folks saying this actually comes from, especially if Putin is put into a situation where it's that or a body bag for him. Does anyone really think he'd just go quietly to death and disgrace? What would the future matter to him - he would know he'd be dead either way.

 

AFAIC we simply don't know what the man will do (other than the standing orders which say explicitly nuclear weapons will be used if the survival of the state is threatened) so it's best to consider all options and not dismiss any.

Depends on what he actually means by survival of the state. Does that refer to an actual threat, or invasion of Russia, or a threat to the ideology of Russia in that democracy is a threat to the Russian state.

[leicsmac]

25 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Depends on what he actually means by survival of the state. Does that refer to an actual threat, or invasion of Russia, or a threat to the ideology of Russia in that democracy is a threat to the Russian state.

Yeah, exactly, and because that term can be interpreted in such a freewheeling nature adds an extra risk IMO. What the bloke might perceive as an existential threat is entirely open to interpretation.

 

Of course, he has to be dealt with, but this needs a more nuanced approach than the heavy mob/bull at a gate.

[LCFCCHRIS]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I would really like to know where the confidence in folks saying this actually comes from, especially if Putin is put into a situation where it's that or a body bag for him. Does anyone really think he'd just go quietly to death and disgrace? What would the future matter to him - he would know he'd be dead either way.

 

AFAIC we simply don't know what the man will do (other than the standing orders which say explicitly nuclear weapons will be used if the survival of the state is threatened) so it's best to consider all options and not dismiss any.

Take your point, but let me rephrase, I think it's worth calling his bluff IF his interpretation of russian territory worth of nuclear defense includes the annexed areas. Of course Russia proper itself is off limits and Ukraine will be well aware of this. Let's not forget Crimea has been shelled and threatened by Ukraine, a land previously annexed and absorbed by Russia, and no such nuclear strike has been launched.

 

Looking at the recent UN vote on allowing Zelenskyy to speak, even his closest allies only abstained. They now need to put out the message that any use of nuclear weapons is unacceptable to all. Let's not forget, if Russia attacked a single NATO state even, I doubt the likes of China come out of that conflict unscathed, it would either fast escalate into everyone firing off their shot, or, the subsequent global consequences to the environment, nuclear winters etc would almost certainly change their lives forever. 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

Take your point, but let me rephrase, I think it's worth calling his bluff IF his interpretation of russian territory worth of nuclear defense includes the annexed areas. Of course Russia proper itself is off limits and Ukraine will be well aware of this. Let's not forget Crimea has been shelled and threatened by Ukraine, a land previously annexed and absorbed by Russia, and no such nuclear strike has been launched.

 

Looking at the recent UN vote on allowing Zelenskyy to speak, even his closest allies only abstained. They now need to put out the message that any use of nuclear weapons is unacceptable to all. Let's not forget, if Russia attacked a single NATO state even, I doubt the likes of China come out of that conflict unscathed, it would either fast escalate into everyone firing off their shot, or, the subsequent global consequences to the environment, nuclear winters etc would almost certainly change their lives forever. 

No disagreement there.

 

A comment on the bolded, however: as much as this is true, if Putin did decide to go out in a 100 million Kelvin blaze of infamy, I'm pretty sure there isn't much that the Chinese could really do to stop it at a fundamental level. And their opinion on the matter probably wouldn't mean much anyway because with whatever they do, such a thing only ends the same way every time.

 

 

[marbles]

https://news.yahoo.com/putin-ally-falls-sea-adding-111159933.html
 

You’d think by now, the line “hey, come to the ledge and look at this” wouldn’t work anymore.

[CosbehFox]

It’s not a surprise to see the Russian public discontent with this method of subscription 

[fox_favourite]

29 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

It’s not a surprise to see the Russian public discontent with this method of subscription 

Me neither. There will be some that believe in Putin’s view and sign up, it would happen in any country but the mass population I can’t imagine would be the same. They have been lied to over and over, the protests, however small, shows that there is a strong opposition to this. Considering they protested knowing that it is illegal and could get them into serious trouble says it all.

 

Are cracks starting to appear in Russian society for this? They were originally told it was a special operation and would be over in days if not weeks. They were told civilians wouldn’t be a target. They were told that the country wouldn’t mobilise. They were told that conscripts won’t be sent to Ukraine. They were told that they are liberating Ukraine. If this is the case why are they fighting back? How much more could a population take?

Edited 23 September 2022 by fox_favourite

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, fox_favourite said:

Me neither. There will be some that believe in Putin’s view and sign up, it would happen in any country but the mass population I can’t imagine would be the same. They have been lied to over and over, the protests, however small, shows that there is a strong opposition to this. Considering they protested knowing that it is illegal and could get them into serious trouble says it all.

 

Are cracks starting to appear in Russian society for this? They were originally told it was a special operation and would be over in days if not weeks. They were told civilians wouldn’t be a target. They were told that the country wouldn’t mobilise. They were told that conscripts won’t be sent to Ukraine. They were told that they are liberating Ukraine. If this is the case why are they fighting back? How much more could a population take?

If boris was leader of the tories and there was a GE tomorrow the majority of red wall voters who lent him their votes last time would do the same again …..

 

Lots of people are basically  stoopid 

[LiberalFox]

I can't see it working for Putin. This might actually lower Russia's effective combat power in Ukraine.

[yorkie1999]

Big worry for Ukraine if this is the calibre of new recruits

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

9 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Big worry for Ukraine if this is the calibre of new recruits

Alright Ukraine, I'm just gonna do this, and if you get clobbered, it's your own fault

[marbles]

It’s the soviets version of Abbott & Costello’s “Buck Privates”

[leicsmac]

[Smudge]

I feel for you mate. You really do live in fear. I was the same in the sixties but somehow I survived and so will you. The sooner you realize there aint a damn thing you can do about it the sooner yiou can live with yourself.

Edited 24 September 2022 by Smudge

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Smudge said:

I feel for you mate. You really do live in fear. I was the same in the sixties but somehow I survived and so will you. The sooner you realize there aint a damn thing you can do about it the sooner yiou can live with yourself.

Being cursed with knowledge is a thing, yes.

 

But don't expend too much sympathy - I choose to be aware of what goes on in the world and the way people with power interact within it. And IMO people not caring about things "beyond their control" leads to an easier life for them no doubt, but not necessarily for everyone else or those who come after them.

 

I pay that additional cost in stress gladly for the hope that I might be able to contribute, in at least a small way, to a better world to leave behind than the one I currently inhabit.

[Smudge]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Being cursed with knowledge is a thing, yes.

 

But don't expend too much sympathy - I choose to be aware of what goes on in the world and the way people with power interact within it. And IMO people not caring about things "beyond their control" leads to an easier life for them no doubt, but not necessarily for everyone else or those who come after them.

 

I pay that additional cost in stress gladly for the hope that I might be able to contribute, in at least a small way, to a better world to leave behind than the one I currently inhabit.

Ok

[Parafox]

Anyone else see the queues of vehicles of young men trying to get out of Russia to avoid conscription?

 

(no images available yet)

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, Parafox said:

Anyone else see the queues of vehicles of young men trying to get out of Russia to avoid conscription?

 

(no images available yet)

They should be invited here to use their Labour or expertise, but Putin is such a bastard that if anything happened to any of them here (murdered/assaulted), it would be classed as an attack on Russia in their law. 

[st albans fox]

Could be loosely ukraine related - lots of tumours that Xi hasn’t been seen since he returned from the regional conference last week 

 

there were some strange things happening with china’s air and rail services yesterday with lots of cancellations 

 

not long till the party conference that confers another unprecedented term for him - if there are elements of the party that want to stop this happening then they don’t have long to act …..