Ukraine

[adam]

 

[MPH]

We shouldn’t rule out Ukranian sabotage. I find it interesting that this has happened the day after the American and a Russian  foreign secretaries met to discuss how they can avoid escalating things further..

[fox_up_north]

Occam's razor would probably suggest that, using our knowledge of how crap Russian technology is, it's an error from someone, rather than sabotage or a deliberate threat. 

[Jattdogg]

3 hours ago, MPH said:

NATO will demand an immediate response and explanation from Russia.
 

It’s very possible that NATO could respond by destroying some Russian  rocket launchers stationed in Ukraine. It would never attack anything inside of Russia without Russia attacking a NATO country full on.  

 

if the reports of Ukraine shooting down a missile and it straying into Polish territory are accurate then it would be hard to pin this one on Russia.

 

 

NATO will want to establish the full facts before issuing a response.

True. But that fact they are attacking/invading ukraine, firing what seems to be indiscriminately with no regard for civilians for no valid reason means the blame is solely on them. Ukraine defending itself could have caused this but if russia wasnt there in the first place this would never have happened. 

 

Of course it won't matter even though there is confirmation it is a russian missile.

 

Nato wont attack but i think it's time to put troops on the borders. Clearly Russias actions will/can have a deadly impact in neighbouring nato countries even if its "just 2 people". Cant get mad about that now can you vlady?  ****in cvnt.

[leicsmac]

If Russia really wanted to send a message and flex their muscles, daring NATO to do something about it, then the whole point of it would be that they would clearly be responsible for it.

 

That they are denying it in definitive terms clearly runs counter to this, so the more likely origin is an error or the thing being shot down and landing where it wasn't intended.

 

Sort it out diplomatically.

 

3 hours ago, westernpark said:

To do something over this, when we consider MH17 and Salisbury and the cowardice that we showed in response, would be illogical, they were not accidents! That cowardice by the west has been a factor in Putin’s aggression.

So...purely out of interest, what would be an effective, non-cowardly response here?

 

One that, for preference, wouldn't inevitably end in 100 million Kelvin mushroom clouds in most key places all over the world?

[marbles]

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

So...purely out of interest, what would be an effective, non-cowardly response here?

 

One that, for preference, wouldn't inevitably end in 100 million Kelvin mushroom clouds in most key places all over the world?

Biden and Harris should immediately fly to Russia, storm into Putins office and slap him across the face.

Anything less would be weak

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

Biden and Harris should immediately fly to Russia, storm into Putins office and slap him across the face.

Anything less would be weak

 

With a wet fish. Carp, preferably.

[Countryfox]

Blimey if they are now saying it may not have come from Russia where did it come from ??!?  ..  bit far from North Korea 

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Blimey if they are now saying it may not have come from Russia where did it come from ??!?  ..  bit far from North Korea 

 

i took it as saying it wasn’t launched from the physical boundary of within Russia. Probably a launcher from within Donetsk or other other Russian held territory. It may have been from Russia but fired from within Ukraine 

[Daggers]

If you wanted to goad NATO, you don’t target Farmer Jakub Giles and his big eared lad bouncing along on his big red tractor bringing in the hay. It’s clearly an error.

[leicsmac]

25 minutes ago, Daggers said:

If you wanted to goad NATO, you don’t target Farmer Jakub Giles and his big eared lad bouncing along on his big red tractor bringing in the hay. It’s clearly an error.

And you particularly don't say you didn't do it afterwards. That seems counterproductive.

[westernpark]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

If Russia really wanted to send a message and flex their muscles, daring NATO to do something about it, then the whole point of it would be that they would clearly be responsible for it.

 

That they are denying it in definitive terms clearly runs counter to this, so the more likely origin is an error or the thing being shot down and landing where it wasn't intended.

 

Sort it out diplomatically.

 

So...purely out of interest, what would be an effective, non-cowardly response here?

 

One that, for preference, wouldn't inevitably end in 100 million Kelvin mushroom clouds in most key places all over the world?

Sorry I am saying we were cowards back in 2014, there are personal reasons why I used such emotive language. We should have been as hostile to Russia as we are now, back then.

Unfortunately, there is very little we can do. I don’t believe in chest beating like the chap in the Kremlin. The aim of NATO in this whole conflict should be deescalation, whilst making sure it is difficult to Russia to do this again. Our overarching aim being to avoid those mushroom clouds you talk of.

[leicsmac]

28 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Sorry I am saying we were cowards back in 2014, there are personal reasons why I used such emotive language. We should have been as hostile to Russia as we are now, back then.

Unfortunately, there is very little we can do. I don’t believe in chest beating like the chap in the Kremlin. The aim of NATO in this whole conflict should be deescalation, whilst making sure it is difficult to Russia to do this again. Our overarching aim being to avoid those mushroom clouds you talk of.

Thank you for clarifying - I do agree completely with this.

[Lionator]

So it seems like it was a Ukrainian defence missile after all. 

[foxy boxing]

2 hours ago, MPH said:

 

i took it as saying it wasn’t launched from the physical boundary of within Russia. Probably a launcher from within Donetsk or other other Russian held territory. It may have been from Russia but fired from within Ukraine 

It was most likely fired from Russian held territory or even Belarus. There will be so many false narratives about who launched it, where was it launched from.  Russia wants a war of misinformation and conspiracy theories as it helps them and deflects from their culpability. It was most likely accidental and not a provocation. Even if it wasn't Russia it happened because of them.

[Ginger_Filbert]

Is it a random coincidence that it hit a grain farm after all the grain arguments that have been going on?

 

Borderline conspiracy theory 😂

[GlennyFox55]

Sounds like a stray Ukrainian missile according to the yanks, that was shot to intercept the barrage they were under from the Russians yesterday. 

[st albans fox]

35 minutes ago, Lionator said:

So it seems like it was a Ukrainian defence missile after all. 

as you were, everyone  …..

 

Edited 16 November 2022 by st albans fox

[Lionator]

36 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

as you were, everyone  …..

 

I find the hysteria more terrifying than the event itself. Thank goodness the world isn’t run by nutters on Twitter and football forums.

[ARM1968]

Looks like an S300 fired by Ukraine at incoming Russian cruise missiles. Cooler heads will prevail in this. 

[ARM1968]

1 hour ago, Ginger_Filbert said:

Is it a random coincidence that it hit a grain farm after all the grain arguments that have been going on?

 

Borderline conspiracy theory 😂

Yes. Not to mention those that hit Moldova and took out a power station.  Just coincidence I think. 

[LiberalFox]

I thought it was most likely Ukrainian once it was ID'ed as an S-300 because while those have been used in a surface-surface role I don't think there's anywhere Russia could have fired from that would be in range. Horribly unlucky that it caused a loss of life. 

[Lionator]

You can see why Biden is reportedly becoming frustrated with the Ukrainian government after this episode. Their immediate accusation of Russia was genuinely dangerous (not excusing that this was all caused by Russia firing missiles). 

[leicsmac]

37 minutes ago, Lionator said:

You can see why Biden is reportedly becoming frustrated with the Ukrainian government after this episode. Their immediate accusation of Russia was genuinely dangerous (not excusing that this was all caused by Russia firing missiles). 

Yeah.

 

While the world at large has to see this through to the end with Ukraine, Zelensky going online and going on about Russian escalation before anyone was sure the thing was actually Russian isn't really helping things.

[Captain...]

Did Zelensky actually say it was a Russian missile?

 

This incident was a direct result of Russian escalating things, even if it was an air defence missile. Missiles only landed in neighbouring countries because Russia is indiscriminately bombing large swathes of Ukraine.