Cost of living crisis.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Sideshow Faes said:

The idea it has to be capitalism or socialism/communism is a false dichotomy.

 

People often say that socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried. On the other hand there are arguments to be made about the extent of American foreign policy in making that the case. Either way, I don't think it's relevant. 

 

Ignoring the alternative systems used before, it's pretty clear that capitalism as practiced in the US and UK has failed the people badly. Though it hasn't actually failed in terms of what it is set up to do.

 

The UK and US have a different corporate governance regime that elsewhere on the planet. It is much more geared towards shareholders first. Businesses literally exist to increase value to shareholders. In Europe there are other aspects to corporate governance that have seen less corporate excess.

 

Over decades we've seen that in practice this means cutting enjoyment costs by letting wages fall a fast as possible. Cutting production costs by using cheaper materials and pushing for reductions in consumer, environmental and other protections and what they like to call 'red tape'. Increasing shareholder dividends, even when companies aren't putting money into pension schemes as they should be. Then there are issues like fire and rehire, benefit system supporting low wage employers etc that also hurt ordinary people.

 

The end result is that over decades the % of GDP that goes to workers has fallen significantly, while the amount going to capital has risen significantly. So as GDP has risen, virtually all of the benefit has gone to capital. 

 

This is what capitalism was designed for. The clue is in the title. It's there to build capital - to concentrate the money and assets held across the economy, not to spread them out.

 

You may not like socialism but capitalism has also failed. We need a new approach that supports ordinary people - surely that's why we have an economy - and doesn't wreck the ecosystem for the benefit of a relative handful of ultra rich.

 

I see that virtually everybody - from the right to the left - agrees on most of the same problems. It's just the solutions that aren't agreed upon. For the most part it's because they've been hoodwinked into believing there's no alternative, when really the discussion needed is what the alternative should be. 

 

Certainly this last part is both true and important.

 

Thing is, we'd better get on with that discussion about what the alternative is and apply it in a timely fashion, or the Earth may supply its own solution. Along with human help with the typical response when the going gets tough and people don't have enough to eat or drink, too.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Great to see the selfishness of the public sector strikes impacting everyone in the country. 
 

 

Didn’t want to cut their own expenditures back like the rest of us are having to, and now we’re all paying the price

 

Class. Bravo 

 

 

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

Just now, The Year Of The Fox said:

Great to see the selfishness of the public sector strikes impacting everyone in the country. 
 

 

Didn’t want to cut their own expenditures back like the rest of us are having to, and now we’re all paying the price

 

Class. Bravo 

 

 

Well that's an interesting take. Are you looking for bites?

Private sector pay increases are dwarfing public sector pay increases at this time.

Triple lock pension increases are due to be 7%, again above anything the majority of the public sector is getting.

Why should public sector workers keep taking pay cuts for 13 years? They haven't had rises since they had to take the brunt on the banker's excesses a decade and a half ago.

Just give them a fair deal and there won't be strikes, pretty simple. The only people to blame are the people running the country.

 

[Foxin_Mad]

19 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Shareholders lost a vast amount though. Post bailout their share of Natwest was diluted to 16%,  so they lost billions and rightly so.  The bailout wasn’t for the banks or the shareholders but to prevent a complete collapse of the  UK / global banking system and economy.  That would have cost a lot more than £33bn that is for sure.

They lost be they still have. Its funny really the banks can cock up and the state bails them out. But if I dont pay my mortgage or loan or need to refinance it over a longer period due to circumstances, theres little flexibility if I dont meet their scoring. In a way the inflexibility of banks will ensure they actually receive less money in the end! at the end of the day if they wont renegotiate and someone can not pay both lose out on principle.

 

If the governents created a national bank of last resort to guaruntee deposits etc im not sure it would have cost more, the overall cost was probably a lot more than £33bn, arguably we are still paying now. A Bankers incompentence frankly should have had nothing to do with any state, if a bank has become so big its a problem, then the state has failed to adequately regulate IMO. 

 

To me is fairly clear this hybrid system doesnt work, theres no real consequence for errors/bad management. We are seeing the same now with water companies, under investment over decades, plenty of dividends and bonuses paid, debt secured, the business has taken on too much, many are insolvent, the solution to invest is to increase the price for customers! This is not how it should work! 

 

 

[The Year Of The Fox]

15 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said:

Well that's an interesting take. Are you looking for bites?

Private sector pay increases are dwarfing public sector pay increases at this time.

Triple lock pension increases are due to be 7%, again above anything the majority of the public sector is getting.

Why should public sector workers keep taking pay cuts for 13 years? They haven't had rises since they had to take the brunt on the banker's excesses a decade and a half ago.

Just give them a fair deal and there won't be strikes, pretty simple. The only people to blame are the people running the country.

 

They haven’t had a pay cut though have they? 🤐

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

They haven’t had a pay cut though have they? 🤐

In real terms compared to inflation, it would seem that they have.

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

8 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

They haven’t had a pay cut though have they? 🤐

Yes they have. In real terms a very substantial one. Majority of the public sector have had 0% or 1% rises every year for 13 years and are 25-30% down in real terms.

[The Year Of The Fox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

In real terms compared to inflation, it would seem that they have.

So then has everyone else I know in the private sector, possibly with the exception of one

 

But absolutely nobody has cut their actual pay.

 

They’re just struggling like the rest of the country, but because they public sector they feel the country owes them a better living.

 

Like I say, Bravo 

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

So then has everyone else I know in the private sector, possibly with the exception of one

 

But absolutely nobody has cut their actual pay.

 

They’re just struggling like the rest of the country, but because they public sector they feel the country owes them a better living.

 

Like I say, Bravo 

Right, it's just that the money they have in hand now buys less materially than what it did. What, exactly, is the difference between that and a cut in "actual" pay, I wonder?

 

And if everyone is indeed struggling (I reckon that's pretty much spot on), perhaps it might be time to have better administration that might be able to address that struggling - for public and private sector alike.

 

In any case, money isn't everything - it's the things that it buys, particularly the physiological needs, that are.

[The Year Of The Fox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right, it's just that the money they have in hand now buys less materially than what it did. What, exactly, is the difference between that and a cut in "actual" pay, I wonder?

 

And if everyone is indeed struggling (I reckon that's pretty much spot on), perhaps it might be time to have better administration that might be able to address that struggling - for public and private sector alike.

 

In any case, money isn't everything - it's the things that it buys, particularly the physiological needs, that are.

Agreed. That’s inflation. And their strikes are perpetuating it

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

26 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

So then has everyone else I know in the private sector, possibly with the exception of one

 

But absolutely nobody has cut their actual pay.

 

They’re just struggling like the rest of the country, but because they public sector they feel the country owes them a better living.

 

Like I say, Bravo 

The reason their strikes hurt is because you suddenly realised how important those jobs are. They should be well paid. Our public servants should be the brightest and best and we should want to pay at a level that attracts that calibre to run our public services.

 

If you work in a role that's equally important then you can also unionise and do something to help yourself. It's what our forefathers did and is the reason we have any employment rights.

 

An ordinary person complaining that other ordinary people are not going to accept their lives being made worse by others is a really strange look. Stop accepting that life happens to you and make something happen yourself. That's what they're doing and it should be applauded.

[The Year Of The Fox]

4 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said:

The reason their strikes hurt is because you suddenly realised how important those jobs are. They should be well paid. Our public servants should be the brightest and best and we should want to pay at a level that attracts that calibre to run our public services.

 

If you work in a role that's equally important then you can also unionise and do something to help yourself. It's what our forefathers did and is the reason we have any employment rights.

 

An ordinary person complaining that other ordinary people are not going to accept their lives being made worse by others is a really strange look. Stop accepting that life happens to you and make something happen yourself. That's what they're doing and it should be applauded.

Conversely I think these people should stop thinking the world owes them a living and knuckle down to work. 

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

3 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Conversely I think these people should stop thinking the world owes them a living and knuckle down to work. 

I don't think we're likely to agree here and it may be better to accept that. Your points seem to be rooted more in how you feel rather than based on any objective evidence. Which is fine, but we're coming at this from different places.

 

Nobody thinks anybody owes anybody else a living. People get a job that pays a certain amount. After years in that job their pay has fallen by 30% in real terms. They simply expect to be paid at the same relative level at which they began.

 

The public sector is comparatively better educated than the private sector and the role it fulfills is (subjectively) more important to the country in many cases. Expecting those people to take part cuts every single year is clearly ridiculous.

 

The average pay rise in the economy this year is 7.8%. Much higher than the public sector is getting.

 

Do you mind me asking what you do? I sense that you probably aren't getting a 7.8% pay rise or you probably wouldn't have the same viewpoint. 

 

 

[Bryn]

6 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Conversely I think these people should stop thinking the world owes them a living and knuckle down to work. 

I think people in every sector should leverage every mechanism they can to demand that in inflation is controlled by restricting egregious corporate profit, which is demonstrably a larger driver of inflation, and to demand that they have a larger share of the ever-growing economic pie. 
 

I don’t think we go far enough in this country and think we ought to be protesting and striking on a much larger scale.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Agreed. That’s inflation. And their strikes are perpetuating it

Fair enough, so with that in mind, what's the solution that won't pile more difficulty on the heads of those already in difficulty?

 

7 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Conversely I think these people should stop thinking the world owes them a living and knuckle down to work. 

I wonder how such a Puritan Work Ethic maxim will endure in a world where automation will be able to do a lot of different jobs for us, which is on the way.

[ozleicester]

once again for those at the back Wages are NOT causing inflation.. Corporate PROFITS ARE THE CAUSE

“Australia isn’t experiencing a wage-price spiral, it’s at the beginning of a price-profit spiral,” said Dr. Richard Denniss, chief economist at the Australia Institute.

Edited 15 August 2023 by ozleicester

[The Year Of The Fox]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough, so with that in mind, what's the solution that won't pile more difficulty on the heads of those already in difficulty?

 

I wonder how such a Puritan Work Ethic maxim will endure in a world where automation will be able to do a lot of different jobs for us, which is on the way.

Get your head down and crack on. There were hard times in 2008/9 and there were hard times before.

 

 

The difference this time being that the mindset of the public has changed, whereby they don’t want to alter their way of living to accommodate the difficulties- they want something for nothing 

Edited 15 August 2023 by The Year Of The Fox

[The Year Of The Fox]

12 minutes ago, Bryn said:

I think people in every sector should leverage every mechanism they can to demand that in inflation is controlled by restricting egregious corporate profit, which is demonstrably a larger driver of inflation, and to demand that they have a larger share of the ever-growing economic pie. 
 

I don’t think we go far enough in this country and think we ought to be protesting and striking on a much larger scale.

You say private sector and must think of those companies like BP or Shell

 

If that’s the case then i kind of agree. 
 

However there’s a completely other part of the private sector. My company for example. We’re a small plumbing firm, ran by two brilliant bosses. Our wages are fine, but definitely not what you would predict most (self employed) plumbing and heating engineers to earn. (We are on the books, not SE)

 

Now my boss said earlier in the year that if we were to go on strike demanding a rise in line with inflation, they’d simply have to close the doors to the business.
 

Alternatively they could pass on the costs to the customers. So suddenly, the nurse who’s striked because she thinks she deserves more money is paying the increase from her pay rise to my company in order to fix the boiler/replace the bathroom so she’s actually no better off than 2 years ago when inflation and interest rates were low, and nobody was striking for a rise.

 

The entire thing is farcical and the way it’s all going the vicious circle won’t be broken. 

 

 

 

 

[Zear0]

4 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Get your head down and crack on. There were hard times in 2008/9 and there were hard times before.

 

 

The difference this time being that the mindset of the public has changed, whereby they don’t want to alter their way of living to accommodate the difficulties- they want something for nothing 

I'd argue that the difference this time being huge swathes of companies making record profits out of these hard times.  It's not at all like the financial crisis where everyone was hard up, this is hardship caused, predominantly, by profiteering.  Workers just want a piece of the pie.

 

Not to make my way onto Oz's hit list, but I'm a business owner and have literally never had it so good.  We've had massively increased turnover due to global markets changing and I've not had to lift a finger. I wish my staff would just "crack on" and not expect wage increases to reflect our improved profits, but sadly (joking aside I'm please they're not herds of sheep) they've got backbones and realise that wages and labour are a two way relationship.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Get your head down and crack on. There were hard times in 2008/9 and there were hard times before.

 

 

The difference this time being that the mindset of the public has changed, whereby they don’t want to alter their way of living to accommodate the difficulties- they want something for nothing 

“Be industrious, let thine eyes be open, lest you become a beggar, for the man that is idle cometh not to honor.” - Ancient Egyptian Proverb

 

“If I have a handful of silver it is because I work and my wife works, and we do not, as some do, sit idling over a gambling table or gossiping on doorsteps never swept, letting the fields grow to weeds and our children go half-fed!” - The Good Earth, Pearl S. Buck, 1931.

 

I would submit this is not really a new problem.

 

Additionally, if we're experiencing the same difficulties and problems again and again and not actually improving things for those who come after us, it's a sign we're not learning as a species and that's a fundamental failing.

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

8 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

You say private sector and must think of those companies like BP or Shell

 

If that’s the case then i kind of agree. 
 

However there’s a completely other part of the private sector. My company for example. We’re a small plumbing firm, ran by two brilliant bosses. Our wages are fine, but definitely not what you would predict most (self employed) plumbing and heating engineers to earn. (We are on the books, not SE)

 

Now my boss said earlier in the year that if we were to go on strike demanding a rise in line with inflation, they’d simply have to close the doors to the business.
 

Alternatively they could pass on the costs to the customers. So suddenly, the nurse who’s striked because she thinks she deserves more money is paying the increase from her pay rise to my company in order to fix the boiler/replace the bathroom so she’s actually no better off than 2 years ago when inflation and interest rates were low, and nobody was striking for a rise.

 

The entire thing is farcical and the way it’s all going the vicious circle won’t be broken. 

 

 

 

 

The nurse is already paying more for everything, that's why she needs the pay rise.

You're competitors will have increased their prices.

You should get a raise and charge a bit more. 

The things you've said so far basically read that because you've accepted falling wages you're bitter at others not being so subservient.

[Grebfromgrebland]

10 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

You say private sector and must think of those companies like BP or Shell

 

If that’s the case then i kind of agree. 
 

However there’s a completely other part of the private sector. My company for example. We’re a small plumbing firm, ran by two brilliant bosses. Our wages are fine, but definitely not what you would predict most (self employed) plumbing and heating engineers to earn. (We are on the books, not SE)

 

Now my boss said earlier in the year that if we were to go on strike demanding a rise in line with inflation, they’d simply have to close the doors to the business.
 

Alternatively they could pass on the costs to the customers. So suddenly, the nurse who’s striked because she thinks she deserves more money is paying the increase from her pay rise to my company in order to fix the boiler/replace the bathroom so she’s actually no better off than 2 years ago when inflation and interest rates were low, and nobody was striking for a rise.

 

The entire thing is farcical and the way it’s all going the vicious circle won’t be broken. 

 

10 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

 

 

 

So you're you telling me you've not had a pay rise in 10 years and the amount your firm charged for goods and services hasn't increased over that time?

 

Also if your boss can't pay his staff appropriately maybe it's time to close the business.

[The Year Of The Fox]

2 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

 

So you're you telling me you've not had a pay rise in 10 years and the amount your firm charged for goods and services hasn't increased over that time?

 

Also if your boss can't pay his staff appropriately maybe it's time to close the business.

We’ve most definitely not had a rise in-line with inflation no. Most small businesses I know of haven’t. 
 

5 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said:

The nurse is already paying more for everything, that's why she needs the pay rise.

You're competitors will have increased their prices.

You should get a raise and charge a bit more. 

The things you've said so far basically read that because you've accepted falling wages you're bitter at others not being so subservient.

The same stuff I’m already paying more for? 
 

I’m not bitter in the slightest. It’s just bemusing people can be so dense/selfish as to believe a payrise for themselves sorts everything else out. It doesn’t, it just perpetuates it all

 

Edited 15 August 2023 by The Year Of The Fox

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

1 minute ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

 

So you're you telling me you've not had a pay rise in 10 years and the amount your firm charged for goods and services hasn't increased over that time?

 

Also if your boss can't pay his staff appropriately maybe it's time to close the business.

I was thinking this. As if giving his staff a 5% rise would lead to somebody closing down their entire business. Would need Donald Trump levels of ineptitude as a businessman for that to be true.

 

If you plumbing bill goes from £500 to £515 to account for it (as wages aren't the only thing included in pricing a 5% pay rise does not equal a 5% cost rise) you aren't going to be that bothered.

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

Just now, The Year Of The Fox said:

We’ve most definitely not had a rise in-line with inflation no. Most small businesses I know of haven’t. 
 

The same stuff I’m already paying more for? 
 

I’m not bitter in the slightest. It’s just bemusing people can be so dense/selfish as to believe a payrise for themselves sorts everything else out. It doesn’t, it just perpetuates it all

 

I understand that when the Tories or right wing commentators argue that wages are fuelling inflation by the method you state or sounds true. It does sound true, it sounds like a story that makes sense.

The thing is though, none of the actual data or evidence backs this up. 

Inflation is being driven on the supply side, not the demand side.

With increased mortgage costs, energy bills and huge corporate profits, people can afford less, so demand is not increasing in volume terms.

Even 7% pay rises are far below inflation over the last year or so.

Wages are not driving inflation and just because it sounds like a reasonable story doesn't make it any more true.