Cost of living crisis.

[Greg2607]

13 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Well, I believe in a large and active government, centrally and locally, high taxes, at least adequate public services, infrastructure and a decent minimum standard of living. So to answer your question, both.

do these two things mutually exist? 

 

We currently have high taxes and it's eroding everyone's standard of living.... 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

 

Government is currently bigger than it has ever been. To describe the current approach, or anything we have seen in most of our lifetimes, as laissez-faire is way beyond ignorant and touching on insane. 

I wouldn't mind seeing this proven rather than just being a subjective opinion, but fair enough - put it this way, compared to a few other countries, both quality of life and disparity of same could be rather better, and those places do tend to have strong social systems in place funded by taxation.

 

However...

 

9 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Taxation of the ordinary whilst excusing those best positioned to contribute is what irks many. 

This is the main problem, yeah.

 

It isn't the taxation itself, it's where it's being taken from that's the issue that perhaps many here may agree on.

[Guest BlueBrett]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this proven rather than just being a subjective opinion, but fair enough - put it this way, compared to a few other countries, both quality of life and disparity of same could be rather better, and those places do tend to have strong social systems in place funded by taxation.

 

However...

 

This is the main problem, yeah.

 

It isn't the taxation itself, it's where it's being taken from that's the issue that perhaps many here may agree on.

Which bit is a subjective opinion? The government is demonstrably larger than at any point in history. That's not a controversial statement, it's a widely accepted and frankly obvious fact that is regularly discussed within the commentariat. 

 

From 2010 - the end of 2022 the State issued 39,145 new Acts (the vast majority of which relate to absolute trivialities). That's an average of 3263 new laws every year - Almost 10 every single day! Does that sound like 'laissez faire' to you?  

 

We literally have the exact opposite problem.

Edited 23 November 2023 by BlueBrett

[Tommy G]

22 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Well, I believe in a large and active government, centrally and locally, high taxes, at least adequate public services, infrastructure and a decent minimum standard of living. So to answer your question, both.

We have high taxes already though, is my point. And we have inadequate public services, some underfunded and some not. The NHS as an example has money thrown at it, but run top to bottom by overpaid clowns. In a lot of cases there is so much public sector waste. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

Which bit is a subjective opinion? The government is demonstrably larger than at any point in history. That's not a controversial statement, it's a widely accepted and frankly obvious fact that is regularly discussed within the commentariat. 

 

From 2010 - the end of 2022 the State issued 39,145 new Acts (the vast majority of which relate to absolute trivialities). That's an average of 3263 new laws every year - Almost 10 every single day! Does that sound like 'laissez faire' to you?  

 

We literally have the exact opposite problem.

Then it would be nice to see it demonstrated rather than simply stating it is "demonstrably larger" and leave it as that.

 

The number of those new Acts passed - is that larger per capita at other points in history, and more to the point do all of them somehow link to government getting "bigger" in some way?

 

Sorry if this appears like nitpicking but I do tend to treat anything outside of peer-reviewed literature (particularly on something as divisive as this) as rather subjective and down to what people believe, not necessarily what is.

[westernpark]

50 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

do these two things mutually exist? 

 

We currently have high taxes and it's eroding everyone's standard of living.... 

 

That’s a very biased viewpoint to believe it is solely taxes that’s causing lower standards of living.

[orangecity23]

Won't a lot of those new laws being passed have been ones introduced to replace removed EU laws as a result of Brexit? I'm not sure the number of laws being passed is really a measure of size of the government, rather a measure of how much they want to muck about with adding stuff to the rulebook if you will.

 

Compare that with the state in the post war period, when lots of the utilities, railways and large parts of heavy industry were all nationalised - they may have had less laws, but the government of the time had much more control and influence over many aspects of the country then than they do now.

[Greg2607]

15 minutes ago, westernpark said:

That’s a very biased viewpoint to believe it is solely taxes that’s causing lower standards of living.

it wasn't a viewpoint, it was a question. 

 

They may well exist elsewhere. I don't know the answer to that. 

[Guest BlueBrett]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Then it would be nice to see it demonstrated rather than simply stating it is "demonstrably larger" and leave it as that.

 

The number of those new Acts passed - is that larger per capita at other points in history, and more to the point do all of them somehow link to government getting "bigger" in some way?

 

Sorry if this appears like nitpicking but I do tend to treat anything outside of peer-reviewed literature (particularly on something as divisive as this) as rather subjective and down to what people believe, not necessarily what is.

Sorry do I work for you?  Do your own research mate. 

 

The point about the government passing almost 10 laws a day was to demonstrate that they are highly active and meddlesome as opposed to 'laissez faire'. I wasn't suggesting that there was necessarily any relationship between 'size' and activity levels, although I do think it's evidence that the tentacles of the State already extend all the way into the very minutiae of our day to day lives.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

Sorry do I work for you?  Do your own research mate. 

 

The point about the government passing almost 10 laws a day was to demonstrate that they are highly active and meddlesome as opposed to 'laissez faire'. I wasn't suggesting that there was necessarily any relationship between 'size' and activity levels, although I do think it's evidence that the tentacles of the State already extend all the way into the very minutiae of our day to day lives.

Fair enough then, Hitchens Razor applies, as it often does.

 

I can understand people's fears about state overreach - goodness knows it's as bad as a too hands-off approach and history is pretty clear on that too - so the solution appears to be balance. The problem is that everyone has a different idea of where the balance lies, this discussion is proof of that.

 

NB. When last when interacted you seemed very bound and determined to think that the scientific consensus on climate change and its effects was likewise subjective.

Edited 23 November 2023 by leicsmac

[Robo61]

1 hour ago, Greg2607 said:

do these two things mutually exist? 

 

We currently have high taxes and it's eroding everyone's standard of living.... 

 

Is that really the cause,  or is it that the Tory Government has failed over the last 13 years to invest leading to the UK's productivity falling behind that of its neighbours.

 

And Brexit.

[westernpark]

6 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

it wasn't a viewpoint, it was a question. 

 

They may well exist elsewhere. I don't know the answer to that. 

That’s fair enough but the second sentence suggests you’ve not phrased it as a question. Apologies

[ozleicester]

Nationalise essential services

Corporate taxation is being, (as always) ignored.

Tax profits and shareholders
In 2022, UK banks recorded aggregate pre-tax profits (PTP) of $52.7 billion (£41.1 billion)

Edited 23 November 2023 by ozleicester

[dsr-burnley]

13 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Nationalise essential services

Corporate taxation is being, (as always) ignored.

Tax profits and shareholders
In 2022, UK banks recorded aggregate pre-tax profits (PTP) of $52.7 billion (£41.1 billion)

True, though of course we have to bear in mind that this is worldwide profit and the UK's share would be a much smaller number. 

 

Can HSBC and Santander be truly described as British anyway? 

 

Shareholders do get taxed on dividends, if they are based in the UK. 

[January48]

I

11 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

True, though of course we have to bear in mind that this is worldwide profit and the UK's share would be a much smaller number. 

 

Can HSBC and Santander be truly described as British anyway? 

 

Shareholders do get taxed on dividends, if they are based in the UK. 

Also in April this year corporation tax was raised from 19% to 25% for all but the smallest businesses. Allowances for dividends were also cut and capital gains tax allowances practically abolished. Not very Tory things to do really

 

Ireland are an interesting example. They have low business taxes and high personal taxes which is mainly responsible for their 'economic miracle'. Not sure the people there feel that wealthy though.

[Ian Nacho]

From experience British Gas are a horrific company to deal with. When I moved into my current house, the meters readings were all over the place (going down somehow) due to a fault meaning my bills had to be estimated. They somehow calculated my gas bill to be £1k for the 3 months despite me being the only occupant. After a lot of haggling I got them down to £300 which was still about double what it should have been. 

[Milo]

2 hours ago, BlueBrett said:

From 2010 - the end of 2022 the State issued 39,145 new Acts

Acts or Regulations? 
 

That’s a mad amount if it’s Acts. 

[Daggers]

For the benefit of those who like to invent numbers, a simple picture:

 

 

Source: the government, https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7438/

[grobyfox1990]

Lol there is no way we should be cutting taxes now, that is bananas. Of course we live in a political, not real, world, so the pain will just be passed to Starmer after Labour win the election as the Tories prepare to win in 2028. Hunt has found the numbers to cut consumer taxes from assumptions that won't be met, including a continuing period of spending cuts until 2029.

 

[Zear0]

3 hours ago, Robo61 said:

Have you tried Octopus, cheap EV tariff and comes out top in customer service reviews. I'm paying 7.5p per KW on their tariff for at least six hours (some days more) at night, and day tariff is just a could of pence more than the Govs price cap. Brings my average rate down to under 20p per KW. Price cap is around 27p as I understand it. You do need a smart meter though and either a compatible EV or Charger.

I did look but that tariff wasn't available for my Podpoint charger. I also had to join a "normal" tariff of theirs before switching to a smart one which was something of an unknown. I have heard good things about them and maybe when I looked I was still hacked off with BG. With price cap rising today (at least announced) not sure I'll get cheaper than my current deal. 

[Zear0]

2 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Lol there is no way we should be cutting taxes now, that is bananas. Of course we live in a political, not real, world, so the pain will just be passed to Starmer after Labour win the election as the Tories prepare to win in 2028. Hunt has found the numbers to cut consumer taxes from assumptions that won't be met, including a continuing period of spending cuts until 2029.

 

Imagine a party in government, who relentless accuses the opposition of unfunded tax cuts, doing exactly that? 

 

I'm shocked. 

[westernpark]

3 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

Taxation of the ordinary whilst excusing those best positioned to contribute is what irks many. 

We can all contribute, quite clearly nothing I have said diminishes such a thought. Of course contribution should be proportionate to what an individual or collective earns. 

[Greg2607]

i'm all for paying the current level of taxes btw..... as long as I can see a palpable improvement in infrastructure, services or social support for those that need it.   Unfortunately, I see none of those things in Leicestershire or the wider Uk, despite the higher level of taxes.... 

 

I'm hoping we see lots of reform and a change in priorities after the next election. 

[fox_up_north]

I'm happy to be taxed, provided it's spent sensibly. If they wanted to take 25-30% of my income but, in return, I'd want to be able to see a doctor within a few days of needing it, see police officers actually being proactive against crime and able to use transport/ energy, without feeling gouged.

 

What we currently have feels the worst of both

[January48]

11 minutes ago, westernpark said:

We can all contribute, quite clearly nothing I have said diminishes such a thought. Of course contribution should be proportionate to what an individual or collective earns. 

That's what happens now though (mostly). You pay a percentage of your income not a fixed sum.

So if you earn £30 k you contribute around £5K in direct tax. If you earn £200k you contribute around £80K. If you are not working or below £12K ish you contribute nothing. For me the current system is reasonably fair.