Cost of living crisis.

[yorkie1999]

37 minutes ago, kenny said:

Improving efficiency would be good but it won't be the game changer we need.

 

Got to be nuclear. These small modular reactors muted by rolls Royce need quick investment.

Don't bank on anything get done in the next 20 years if Rolls Royce are involved.

[Zear0]

41 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't bank on anything get done in the next 20 years if Rolls Royce are involved.

Oi. I spent 8 unproductive years there. 

[Dahnsouff]

11 hours ago, Milo said:

We moved house a year and a bit ago. 
 

Originally we were going to self build and have heat recovery/sips/solar, etc. The whole happy clappy eco friendly and energy efficient dream. 

 

As it turned out we ended up buying a 100 year old house with all the non-eco or energy efficiency that comes with it. 
 

I had to install a full heating system when we moved in, so naturally expected to put in a ground source heat pump. 
 

The reality was that the figures just didn’t add up. Not even close.
There is zero point in putting in a GSHP system into an old draughty house. We don’t have cavity walls, and I don’t want to reduce the internal space so the only option to insulate would be to add external insulation. Add to that new flooring throughout to mitigate heat loss, upgrading windows and doors and proper loft insulation and the price was just ridiculous. I think I worked out I’d break even when my kids were about 103 years old! 
 

I would love to see new builds not connected to the grid - they have to have some kind of renewable system installed. Maybe that would force proper change and reduce the price overall for retrofitting more energy efficient, carbon reducing systems to the majority of existing properties.
 

Good luck with your project though. It’s definitely the way forward. 

 

Ta, to be honest, we looked into it and originally wanted to go electric boiler and solar to offset our usage of electricity (in part) but any solar fitter we spoke to said it was not possible as we had too many sky lights. They all seem to want it use the standard size and would not offer alternatives, so that scuppered that.

ASHP seemed the only really viable option, as although a GSHP would have been fine as we have the garden space, we had just had the patio done  (first world problems etc)

 

Living in a 1930s semi, the issues are as you say, thermal efficiency and it is only due to recent reworking of the extension and loft space it has become possible.

[blabyboy]

18 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I put a link on the Ukraine thread (that elicited no reaction other than the usual laughing emoji from Self-Own1) to a piece that was mainly theorising about how energy markets will eventually be Putin's undoing but contained a lot of stuff about the costs of energy extraction and how the point where pulling fossil fuels out of the ground will no longer make economic sense isn't that far off.

 

I thought it was interesting anyway

 

 

I read that, a really interesting find. Work and life got in the way, but I'll say thanks for posting it now. A good 20min read and makes you think and gives you pointers to discern if the author is on the right track.

[Strokes]

16 hours ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

It means that if you want to blow say £45k of your savings on an electric car and ASHP whilst we’re shipping our waste to Romania, whilst Australia were trying to build a coal mine the size of the UK, and China and India are giving off more ‘carbon footprint’ than I will in a 1000 years and you’re still not financially better off after doing so, you’re effectively pissing in the wind. 

What you need to remember is, when fossil fuels reserves become less and less the price will Sky rocket. This is already beginning to happen and it will soon be out of control. We need to make the green jump yesterday, short term pain long term gain. 
This country should be leading the way in green energy.

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, kenny said:

The only way  solar will be the future in the UK is to increase our sunlight hours is to encourage global warming.

 

A big reason for the energy price increase last year was lower than average sun and wind generation.

 

As country we are famed for our weather and it's unpredictability. Why on earth would we trust power generation to the weather!

Global warming would not help solar, as the energy is produced from daylight not heat.

[kenny]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Global warming would not help solar, as the energy is produced from daylight not heat.

Presumably this would result in less cloud cover?

 

Would also allow for solar thermal plants like they have in the US.

 

Either way, overcast which is our default weather pattern is crap for solar. My 5.2 kw panels are smashing out 3.4 and it's a nice day today

[Strokes]

11 minutes ago, kenny said:

Presumably this would result in less cloud cover?

 

Would also allow for solar thermal plants like they have in the US.

 

Either way, overcast which is our default weather pattern is crap for solar. My 5.2 kw panels are smashing out 3.4 and it's a nice day today

I wouldn’t count on it but it’s possible, most models show extreme weathers but I haven’t seen anything that suggests cloud cover would be less.

Solar thermal is also sunlight.

 

Does your solar system store any unused energy or do you feed all additional straight into the grid? 

Edited 2 April 2022 by Strokes

[yorkie1999]

35 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I wouldn’t count on it but it’s possible, most models show extreme weathers but I haven’t seen anything that suggests cloud cover would be less.

Solar thermal is also sunlight.

 

Does your solar system store any unused energy or do you feed all additional straight into the grid? 

Everything is fed into the grid and then the system calculates how much you've put in and works out what you get for free, but on the fly. So on the meter/smart meter there's a sybol that flicks on and off to tell you when your electrics not costing you anything. There are sytems coming out that allow you to conect to a storage battery which sounds pretty good as you can store from your solar panels and use what you generate at night,  or store from economy 7 electric at night and use it in the day. Theres a few videos on youtube a guy has done and he's paying something like 20 quid a month in electric bills.

 

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

Edited 2 April 2022 by yorkie1999

[Wolfox]

On 01/04/2022 at 11:09, Parafox said:

I feel for those like my daughter, who are a prepay meter. They already pay more per unit than those on contracts. Our bills will effectively go up twice as we will have to help her financially after this.

It’s scandalous that pre-pay meter rates are higher than credit meters

 

I mean WTAF????  It’s so blindingly obvious that this is just plain wrong 

[kenny]

42 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I wouldn’t count on it but it’s possible, most models show extreme weathers but I haven’t seen anything that suggests cloud cover would be less.

Solar thermal is also sunlight.

 

Does your solar system store any unused energy or do you feed all additional straight into the grid? 

We have a battery.

 

It gets rinsed once I plug my car in after work and is empty by 9.30pm.

 

I sell at a pittance to the grid when it's sunny.

 

It might be worth having if we worked nights or probably better didn't work.

 

[MPH]

4 hours ago, kenny said:

The only way  solar will be the future in the UK is to increase our sunlight hours is to encourage global warming.

 

A big reason for the energy price increase last year was lower than average sun and wind generation.

 

As country we are famed for our weather and it's unpredictability. Why on earth would we trust power generation to the weather!

Or we improve the technology that allows us to create more efficient solar panels that create more energy from the sun we have. Same goes for wind turbines.

 

ANY technology that is in its infancy is subject to advancement in that technology that increases its  efficiency and affordability.

[kenny]

41 minutes ago, MPH said:

Or we improve the technology that allows us to create more efficient solar panels that create more energy from the sun we have. Same goes for wind turbines.

 

ANY technology that is in its infancy is subject to advancement in that technology that increases its  efficiency and affordability.

This is what the government energy policy is banking on I reckon.

 

Look where it has gotten us.

 

[The Year Of The Fox]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

What you need to remember is, when fossil fuels reserves become less and less the price will Sky rocket. This is already beginning to happen and it will soon be out of control. We need to make the green jump yesterday, short term pain long term gain. 
This country should be leading the way in green energy.

I’m not disputing any of that.

 

My issue is the government forcing it upon us when the alternatives simply are not cost effective and don’t work adequately enough to heat your home. 

[The Year Of The Fox]

3 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Ta, to be honest, we looked into it and originally wanted to go electric boiler and solar to offset our usage of electricity (in part) but any solar fitter we spoke to said it was not possible as we had too many sky lights. They all seem to want it use the standard size and would not offer alternatives, so that scuppered that.

ASHP seemed the only really viable option, as although a GSHP would have been fine as we have the garden space, we had just had the patio done  (first world problems etc)

 

Living in a 1930s semi, the issues are as you say, thermal efficiency and it is only due to recent reworking of the extension and loft space it has become possible.

Would you mind saying again exactly what it is you’ve had/you’re having done?

 

You’ve only had to upgrade one radiator I think you said? Upgrade the size by how much? 
 

I’ll be interested to know how much it’s all costing you (if you’re prepared to say- understandable if not) and I’ll be even more interested to know what you think of it in a years time. 

 

Also, how long do you think you’ll need to have the system before the savings you hope you’ll make will pay off the cost? 

 

Edited 2 April 2022 by The Year Of The Fox

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

I’m not disputing any of that.

 

My issue is the government forcing it upon us when the alternatives simply are not cost effective and don’t work adequately enough to heat your home. 

Ah ok, I don’t think I read the whole chain of conversation so apologies.

 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

Everything is fed into the grid and then the system calculates how much you've put in and works out what you get for free, but on the fly. So on the meter/smart meter there's a sybol that flicks on and off to tell you when your electrics not costing you anything. There are sytems coming out that allow you to conect to a storage battery which sounds pretty good as you can store from your solar panels and use what you generate at night,  or store from economy 7 electric at night and use it in the day. Theres a few videos on youtube a guy has done and he's paying something like 20 quid a month in electric bills.

 

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

There are already plenty of off grid systems, have been for years.

[The Year Of The Fox]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Ah ok, I don’t think I read the whole chain of conversation so apologies.

 

I do still personally think it’s a waste of time and money though for a house of my kind. Half of the walls aren’t even big enough to house a radiator of the size required 😂😂

[leicsmac]

44 minutes ago, kenny said:

This is what the government energy policy is banking on I reckon.

 

Look where it has gotten us.

 

That is no reason to abandon the attempt. Though I know that wasn't what you said, it seems to be inferred here.

 

34 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

I’m not disputing any of that.

 

My issue is the government forcing it upon us when the alternatives simply are not cost effective and don’t work adequately enough to heat your home. 

The government should be making this the cost-effective method for people to choose through market intervention, because time is a critical factor. Additional interest will also drive innovation to make these technologies mature faster - again, a good thing, considering we are on the clock.

[MPH]

46 minutes ago, kenny said:

This is what the government energy policy is banking on I reckon.

 

Look where it has gotten us.

 

 

it’s gotten us quite far actually and it will get us further. There’s been a few things happening recently ya know?

[leicsmac]

Just now, MPH said:

 

it’s gotten us quite far actually and it will get us further. There’s been a few things happening recently ya know?

Quite right.

 

I really don't get the fatalism here.

[Dahnsouff]

28 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Would you mind saying again exactly what it is you’ve had/you’re having done?

 

You’ve only had to upgrade one radiator I think you said? Upgrade the size by how much? 
 

I’ll be interested to know how much it’s all costing you (if you’re prepared to say- understandable if not) and I’ll be even more interested to know what you think of it in a years time. 

 

Also, how long do you think you’ll need to have the system before the savings you hope you’ll make will pay off the cost? 

Sure and sorry for the long post.

 

This was something we wanted to do, not something we were compelled to do. I don’t think anyone should (or can be) forced to adopt such a system, at least not without certain financial guarantees or help.

 

Anyway, after shopping around, we opted for a company recommending a Diakin hybrid ASHP. This is hybrid because it supplements any shortfalls in temperatures reach using electricity. (https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/product-group/air-to-water-heat-pump-low-temperature/daikin_altherma_3_r.html)

 

The labour  and all parts comes to ~15k, 7k of which is refunded by the government scheme currently in operation, and we heard last week any vat we have paid will be refunded due to recent announcements.
 

So on top of those costs are any other works we need to do to get the best from the ASHP system and these are

• 1k for
  • New shower 
  • One new radiator
    • A note on the radiators. It’s not the size that was the issue, it’s the output. So three of our radiators were found to have output too low to be usable during the survey (they provided really good documentation about the requirements) and we challenged 2 of them as they were new and just unknown to the installer. After which they said those 2 were fine and are suitable
      • So only 1 radiator, which was actually required to be replaced and it was the oldest by far
• New insulation and other works we had already planned in the top floor/loft room
  • We already planned and have been quoted for this work, its cost in total is about 5k

So our total outlay to get this thing in and working will be about 21k (-7k refund) = 14k

 

Some further thoughts

• After looking for eco friendly options, we did not know the best way to go, the Government really could do with a clear and concise guide on how people can help themselves should they wish to do something themselves
• I have no idea if this is going to be cost saving, but short term I strongly doubt it,  but over the next 5-10 years I think it might be beneficial but that is not why we are doing it
• As part of the works we have the existing system and ll tanks removed, which provides us with loads more storage space

 

[kenny]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Quite right.

 

I really don't get the fatalism here.

Not fatalism. Just the practicality and realism kicking in.

 

I'm one the good ones that has bought solar panels!

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

Not fatalism. Just the practicality and realism kicking in.

 

I'm one the good ones that has bought solar panels!

 

Speaking personally, as long as the UK (and the world) are working towards the right thing (in this case changing out fossil fuels asap), I have rather a lot of faith in human ingenuity to get it done rather faster and more effectively than people might think.

[kenny]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Speaking personally, as long as the UK (and the world) are working towards the right thing (in this case changing out fossil fuels asap), I have rather a lot of faith in human ingenuity to get it done rather faster and more effectively than people might think.

I'm just surprised that we think we can generate sunshine.