Cost of living crisis.

[chuck'em]

2 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

I have good memories yeah, playing football mostly, and power cuts under the labour government

Im sure there will be plenty of power to go round this winter, as half the country won't be able to afford to use any 

[Fazzer 7]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

Yes he was  also good at sailing.  

Ah yes, Morning Cloud, great name for a yacht. I remember ole Mike Yarwood doing impressions of him and Harold Wilson.

[Fazzer 7]

35 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Power cuts under Heath's government 

Thanks, I stand corrected 👍🏼

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

Can you find any reference to Starmer (who wasn't Labour leader at the time) calling for lockdown before even SAGE called for it?  I can't.

 

I don't think anyone stuck their heads over the parapet to vote for lockdown when "the science" was not calling for it.  There were calls to stop sporting events, I remember, but SAGE disagreed.  Boris followed SAGE advice pretty closely.

Starmer still wasn't LOTO until early April 2020 which was about 3 weeks into the first lockdown. Regardless:

 

 

 

 

 

He also called fro financial support measures before Sunak announced anothing.

 

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Bryn said:

 

Proper sh.t muncher argument this, people like you are so anti-progress it's unbelievable.

 

Despite years of Tories refusing to invest in ****ing anything, we're all still paying more or less the same amount of tax and have absolutely **** all to show for it. NHS is going to shit, the schools are going to shit, I live in one of the largest cities in the UK which currently has no NHS dentists accepting new patients, the Universities are charging more and teaching less, public transport shit or entirely absent, we've bailed on countries we had military obligations to,  working people using food banks, noone can afford a house, pensions collapsing, even the Government itself is poorly run.

 

We have absolutely nothing to show for 12 years of Tory rule except misery and the list of allies we've pissed off.

The global economy has grown and it's all funnelling into the pockets of the elite, we've regressed back to the Victorian era.

Yeah but… the victorians didn’t have iPhones did they Bryn

[Tommy G]

On top of the energy crisis, cost at the pumps and food inflation I bet there is a decent proportion of the population with little to no savings to fall back on and unsecured debt >£5k - most of which will of been living beyond their means during the good times. 
 

I think we could be looking at a national debt crisis on the horizon never mind what’s ahead in the next 6 months. 

[Robo61]

2 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Can you find any reference to Starmer (who wasn't Labour leader at the time) calling for lockdown before even SAGE called for it?  I can't.

 

I don't think anyone stuck their heads over the parapet to vote for lockdown when "the science" was not calling for it.  There were calls to stop sporting events, I remember, but SAGE disagreed.  Boris followed SAGE advice pretty closely.

Ok having done some searching on the first lockdown I'll accept I was wrong.

 

However I note you make no reference to the second lockdown.  And it is this lockdown which is critical against your accusation that Starmer called for lockdown to be extended.

[Foxdiamond]

3 hours ago, Dames said:

And this is the problem the is a certain demographic looking to deprive younger generations because they can't grasp the concept that technology has advanced and so have living standards.

 

A jealous and greedy generation that the world will be glad to see the back of. 

We should not fight among generations. It is like putting one set of workers against another. Plenty of older people support their grown up children and look after their grandchildren. Lots of us worry about the future of the planet and the younger people. I don't think you can say everybody is the same. 

[Foxdiamond]

3 hours ago, Dames said:

The problem is that the same elderly have consistently in large numbers voted for Conservative Governments that have cut back on social care services.

 

Reap what you sow unfortunately.

The point I am making is that a lot of people won't closely identify with an issue unless they are directly affected. This is true of people from all ages and backgrounds. 

[Robo61]

5 hours ago, Dames said:

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 August 2022 by Robo61

[Robo61]

5 hours ago, Dames said:

And this is the problem the is a certain demographic looking to deprive younger generations because they can't grasp the concept that technology has advanced and so have living standards.

 

A jealous and greedy generation that the world will be glad to see the back of. 

 

5 hours ago, Dames said:

The problem is that the same elderly have consistently in large numbers voted for Conservative Governments that have cut back on social care services.

 

Reap what you sow unfortunately.

You really do need to stop putting one democraphic all in the same box. This baby boomer,  has never voted Tory,  has been a trade union member all their working life, has stood on picket lines  and was a TU official for a time.  Will I deserve better than the current social care set up offers when the time comes,  or do I have to suffer because of my peers. You rightly wouldnt try to pit races, genders etc against each other in this way so why do you think it is ok to do it with generations.

 

Oh and I voted remain as did over 40% of my generation.  A similar number of under 40's voted for brexit,  so the differences aren't has stark as you seem to think.

 

Edited 15 August 2022 by Robo61

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Benguin said:

We’ve known that for at least millenniums. 
 

“What is truth?” - Pontius Pilate. 
 

 

Fair to say.

 

I was about to reply saying that only in the past few years has belief overruling fact become a critical part of governance and policy, but then that's not true either, is it? Pretty much everywhere a millenium or two ago was some kind of theocracy.

 

I know you'll likely beg to differ on this, but I consider that rather a problematic regression.

[Dames]

8 hours ago, Robo61 said:

 

You really do need to stop putting one democraphic all in the same box. This baby boomer,  has never voted Tory,  has been a trade union member all their working life, has stood on picket lines  and was a TU official for a time.  Will I deserve better than the current social care set up offers when the time comes,  or do I have to suffer because of my peers. You rightly wouldnt try to pit races, genders etc against each other in this way so why do you think it is ok to do it with generations.

 

Oh and I voted remain as did over 40% of my generation.  A similar number of under 40's voted for brexit,  so the differences aren't has stark as you seem to think.

 

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking your generation has done way more damage to the country/the world than any other. 
 

Its your generation thats most resistant to climate change and its people from that generation that are in key positions across the world making sure that the rich get richer and the world gets sicker. 
 

You personally do not deserve to suffer but at the same time you cant hide from the fact that the generation you are from is most responsible for the problems we have today and the next 2-3 generations will have to pay the price if they are lucky enough to inherit a world. The way things are going an angry boomer (Putin) will blow half the world to pieces just because of his ego. 
 

Again you aren’t personally to blame and shouldnt suffer because of your peers but the reality is you come from the worst generation in history and you and the generations after you will have to suffer the consequences. 

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking your generation has done way more damage to the country/the world than any other. 
 

Its your generation thats most resistant to climate change and its people from that generation that are in key positions across the world making sure that the rich get richer and the world gets sicker. 
 

You personally do not deserve to suffer but at the same time you cant hide from the fact that the generation you are from is most responsible for the problems we have today and the next 2-3 generations will have to pay the price if they are lucky enough to inherit a world. The way things are going an angry boomer (Putin) will blow half the world to pieces just because of his ego. 
 

Again you aren’t personally to blame and shouldnt suffer because of your peers but the reality is you come from the worst generation in history and you and the generations after you will have to suffer the consequences. 

Yes, I agree - it is important not to take reasonable generalisations personally.

[fox_up_north]

12 hours ago, Tommy G said:

On top of the energy crisis, cost at the pumps and food inflation I bet there is a decent proportion of the population with little to no savings to fall back on and unsecured debt >£5k - most of which will of been living beyond their means during the good times. 
 

I think we could be looking at a national debt crisis on the horizon never mind what’s ahead in the next 6 months. 

I have never, ever understood living beyond your means. I got made redundant in 2018, shortly after buying a house and had to use my savings to stay afloat. I was down to about £1,000 after a few months (hard to find education work between May and September) and I worked to build my savings back up. 

 

Haven't been on a holiday since (COVID didn't help, I admit!) and I lived within my means. I always told myself to have a few grand in savings - which came in handy when my bathroom kept leaking and needed sorting.

 

This isn't to lord it over people but I just can't get my head around not saving. Things can go wrong. If not going on holiday this year means you can fix your boiler next year, why wouldn't you do that? 

 

People call me stingy and a spendthrift, which is fine, but I am also much more comfortable knowing I HAVE the money if I need it. 

[HighPeakFox]

4 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I have never, ever understood living beyond your means. I got made redundant in 2018, shortly after buying a house and had to use my savings to stay afloat. I was down to about £1,000 after a few months (hard to find education work between May and September) and I worked to build my savings back up. 

 

Haven't been on a holiday since (COVID didn't help, I admit!) and I lived within my means. I always told myself to have a few grand in savings - which came in handy when my bathroom kept leaking and needed sorting.

 

This isn't to lord it over people but I just can't get my head around not saving. Things can go wrong. If not going on holiday this year means you can fix your boiler next year, why wouldn't you do that? 

 

People call me stingy and a spendthrift, which is fine, but I am also much more comfortable knowing I HAVE the money if I need it. 

I think this has a long, complex answer, but many people react rather than plan, and many people are totally irresponsible.

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, Dames said:

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking your generation has done way more damage to the country/the world than any other. 
 

Its your generation thats most resistant to climate change and its people from that generation that are in key positions across the world making sure that the rich get richer and the world gets sicker. 
 

You personally do not deserve to suffer but at the same time you cant hide from the fact that the generation you are from is most responsible for the problems we have today and the next 2-3 generations will have to pay the price if they are lucky enough to inherit a world. The way things are going an angry boomer (Putin) will blow half the world to pieces just because of his ego. 
 

Again you aren’t personally to blame and shouldnt suffer because of your peers but the reality is you come from the worst generation in history and you and the generations after you will have to suffer the consequences. 

I blame the romans for inventing roads. Without them, no one would need oil refineries to produce fuel for cars lorries and buses and every other form of transport. Schools and hospitals wouldn’t exist because we wouldn’t be able to get to them and we wouldn’t need 60 inch plasmas because no one would be able to deliver them, or houses because there wouldn’t be any lorries to deliver concrete, which we would have in plentiful supply because the romans invented it, might struggle to mix it though because of the lack of water due to the hosepipe ban.

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, Dames said:

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking your generation has done way more damage to the country/the world than any other. 
 

Its your generation thats most resistant to climate change and its people from that generation that are in key positions across the world making sure that the rich get richer and the world gets sicker. 
 

You personally do not deserve to suffer but at the same time you cant hide from the fact that the generation you are from is most responsible for the problems we have today and the next 2-3 generations will have to pay the price if they are lucky enough to inherit a world. The way things are going an angry boomer (Putin) will blow half the world to pieces just because of his ego. 
 

Again you aren’t personally to blame and shouldnt suffer because of your peers but the reality is you come from the worst generation in history and you and the generations after you will have to suffer the consequences. 

Crikey talk about tar everyone with the same brush. You could argue that the generations that lead us into the world wars did a fair amount of comparable damage. Do you really think people are any different. That future world leaders will all be idealists and that greed and fear and mistrust will be a thing of the past. During my childhood we had the Cuban missile crisis yet I didn't  grow up to condemn all of the generation in charge. Putin is a Russian. Does that mean all Russians are bad. I can't take any credit for any achievements but there will be plenty of boomers that have made lives better for others. We lived with the spectre of nuclear war with Europe divided by the iron curtain. 

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

…I am also much more comfortable knowing I HAVE the money…

And that’s why you don’t understand, many don’t. They don’t have nest eggs, savings, emergency funds, or rainy day funds because they are locked into a spiral of debt.

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

I think this has a long, complex answer, but many people react rather than plan, and many people are totally irresponsible.

Some people don't earn enough to have savings and live from one payday to the next but this does not mean they are living the life of riley

[Dames]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

Crikey talk about tar everyone with the same brush. You could argue that the generations that lead us into the world wars did a fair amount of comparable damage. Do you really think people are any different. That future world leaders will all be idealists and that greed and fear and mistrust will be a thing of the past. During my childhood we had the Cuban missile crisis yet I didn't  grow up to condemn all of the generation in charge. Putin is a Russian. Does that mean all Russians are bad. I can't take any credit for any achievements but there will be plenty of boomers that have made lives better for others. We lived with the spectre of nuclear war with Europe divided by the iron curtain. 

I don't know why people are getting so offended by it. Trump, Johnson, Farage, Putin, Bezos, Musk, Xi all come from the same generation and are all bad for the world in their own ways. 

 

Not to mention every CEO or Chairman of every company sucking the world dry and exploiting their workers will also be in this cohort too. Its people from that generation stopping progress on renewables because they want to get richer off fossil fuels, its people from that generation denying millions of Americans free healthcare, its people from that generation that have run Britain down so badly that barely any of our essential services are working, its people from that generation that have brought property on the cheap and ensured its remained a closed market for millions, its people from that generation that believe the greatest fight of our time is pronouns and not rampant exploitation.

 

I could go on and i've said in previous posts its not every single person from that generation that are like these people but as I've said the majority of the problems we have right now are down to the choices the people from this generation are making and those that come after will have to spend decades cleaning up after them. What I will say is the boomer generation did not do enough to stand up for what's right, a lot of these issues have been coming down the track for years but instead you all took an 'i'm alright jack attitude'.

 

[Alf Bentley]

17 hours ago, Dames said:

Might have been the case years ago but a lot of people under the age of 25 have had their formative years formed by Austerity and Brexit. They wake up every day with less opportunities than the day before.

 

They will be desperate for a change. 

 

In the 1960s, a lot of people under the age of 25 had had their formative years formed by the post-war austerity of the late 1940s & 1950s. They were desperate for a change. That generation went out and voted overwhelmingly for Labour Govts, not to mention being behind a liberal cultural revolution: feminism, contraception, war protests, peace & love, hippy communes, initial decriminalization of homosexuality, greater redistribution, opportunities for the young, elimination of the death penalty etc.

 

A majority of that same generation has gone on to vote for Tory austerity and Brexit. So, presumably a generation became "jealous and greedy" that hadn't been like that when it was young? Rather than simply spewing generalized hatred at them as a generation somehow uniquely jealous and greedy, wouldn't it be more useful to try to work out why and how that transformation has occurred?

 

I really hope that you're right that young people are desperate for a change. Maybe it is a time for younger people to lead - socially, culturally, through protests and campaigns - forcing reactionary or simply over-cautious older generations to change the way they use power, unless the young can seize a few levers of power themselves and use them for the better....higher youth voter turnout might be a start.

 

16 hours ago, Dames said:

And this is the problem the is a certain demographic looking to deprive younger generations because they can't grasp the concept that technology has advanced and so have living standards.

 

A jealous and greedy generation that the world will be glad to see the back of. 

 

There's an inconsistency in your argument here, isn't there? Some of the relevant advances in technology and living standards, such as mass car ownership, foreign holidays and gadgets shipped in from Asia, play a significant part in damaging the world via carbon emissions. Yet you seem to feel that such advances should be seen only as a benefit gained and not something that should be challenged in order to reduce the damage done to the world.

 

2 hours ago, Dames said:

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking your generation has done way more damage to the country/the world than any other. 
 

Its your generation thats most resistant to climate change and its people from that generation that are in key positions across the world making sure that the rich get richer and the world gets sicker. 
 

You personally do not deserve to suffer but at the same time you cant hide from the fact that the generation you are from is most responsible for the problems we have today and the next 2-3 generations will have to pay the price if they are lucky enough to inherit a world. The way things are going an angry boomer (Putin) will blow half the world to pieces just because of his ego. 
 

Again you aren’t personally to blame and shouldnt suffer because of your peers but the reality is you come from the worst generation in history and you and the generations after you will have to suffer the consequences. 

 

When I get local buses, the passengers are disproportionately old people and poor people. Younger generations - the young and the middle-aged - disproportionately travel by car, in my experience. Likewise, an awful lot of young people jet off to the Mediterranean or other parts of the world on holiday and buy gadgets shipped in from East Asia.

 

If we're going to condemn older generations for disproportionately denying climate change (probably an accurate observation), should we also condemn younger generations for their greedy hypocrisy in, yes, recognising the reality of climate change, yet still carrying on jetting off to Ibiza, Thailand, Florida or LCFC matches in Europe, driving cars everywhere and buying the latest imported gadgets? Or does it only matter that you recognise climate change, not that you do anything about it yourself?

 

Of course, you might be in the minority of young or middle-aged people who don't have a high-carbon lifestyle. But, by the terms of your own argument, that is irrelevant as the important thing is to generalize. You are part of a generation that does have a high-carbon lifestyle. Perhaps the generation after you (if any) will look at your generation's hypocrisy and be glad to see the back of you, too?

 

The fundamental point being.....resorting to generalized hatred against a particular generation or group doesn't lead anywhere positive, even when there are some truths in those generalizations. There was also truth in generalizations that black people committed more violent crime than whites and that gay/bisexual men were more likely to spread HIV/AIDS - but only a bigot would stop there and resort to generalized hatred, being glad to see them dead, rather than trying to work out why particular trends occurred and, more importantly, how to counteract harmful trends. Why do so many people from every generation become more reactionary as they age? Why is this even more the case than usual with the current older generation? Why have we got this recent trend for people of all generations to simply deny obvious truths and believe utter bollocks (Trump, Boris, climate change deniers, Covid deniers etc. etc.)?

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

Yes, I agree - it is important not to take reasonable generalisations personally.

 

About time we condemned the people of Derbyshire, too.

 

I have a mate who now lives in High Peak. A lifelong leftist, campaigner for social/housing rights, provider of I.T. services to the impoverished, manager of local bands.

 

But we must ignore such specifics. We must generalize. In general, the people of Derbyshire - and High Peak, in particular - are reactionary Tory voters. I bet the world will be glad when it sees the back of the people of High Peak. 

[Dames]

15 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In the 1960s, a lot of people under the age of 25 had had their formative years formed by the post-war austerity of the late 1940s & 1950s. They were desperate for a change. That generation went out and voted overwhelmingly for Labour Govts, not to mention being behind a liberal cultural revolution: feminism, contraception, war protests, peace & love, hippy communes, initial decriminalization of homosexuality, greater redistribution, opportunities for the young, elimination of the death penalty etc.

 

A majority of that same generation has gone on to vote for Tory austerity and Brexit. So, presumably a generation became "jealous and greedy" that hadn't been like that when it was young? Rather than simply spewing generalized hatred at them as a generation somehow uniquely jealous and greedy, wouldn't it be more useful to try to work out why and how that transformation has occurred?

 

I really hope that you're right that young people are desperate for a change. Maybe it is a time for younger people to lead - socially, culturally, through protests and campaigns - forcing reactionary or simply over-cautious older generations to change the way they use power, unless the young can seize a few levers of power themselves and use them for the better....higher youth voter turnout might be a start.

 

 

There's an inconsistency in your argument here, isn't there? Some of the relevant advances in technology and living standards, such as mass car ownership, foreign holidays and gadgets shipped in from Asia, play a significant part in damaging the world via carbon emissions. Yet you seem to feel that such advances should be seen only as a benefit gained and not something that should be challenged in order to reduce the damage done to the world.

 

 

When I get local buses, the passengers are disproportionately old people and poor people. Younger generations - the young and the middle-aged - disproportionately travel by car, in my experience. Likewise, an awful lot of young people jet off to the Mediterranean or other parts of the world on holiday and buy gadgets shipped in from East Asia.

 

If we're going to condemn older generations for disproportionately denying climate change (probably an accurate observation), should we also condemn younger generations for their greedy hypocrisy in, yes, recognising the reality of climate change, yet still carrying on jetting off to Ibiza, Thailand, Florida or LCFC matches in Europe, driving cars everywhere and buying the latest imported gadgets? Or does it only matter that you recognise climate change, not that you do anything about it yourself?

 

Of course, you might be in the minority of young or middle-aged people who don't have a high-carbon lifestyle. But, by the terms of your own argument, that is irrelevant as the important thing is to generalize. You are part of a generation that does have a high-carbon lifestyle. Perhaps the generation after you (if any) will look at your generation's hypocrisy and be glad to see the back of you, too?

 

The fundamental point being.....resorting to generalized hatred against a particular generation or group doesn't lead anywhere positive, even when there are some truths in those generalizations. There was also truth in generalizations that black people committed more violent crime than whites and that gay/bisexual men were more likely to spread HIV/AIDS - but only a bigot would stop there and resort to generalized hatred, being glad to see them dead, rather than trying to work out why particular trends occurred and, more importantly, how to counteract harmful trends. Why do so many people from every generation become more reactionary as they age? Why is this even more the case than usual with the current older generation? Why have we got this recent trend for people of all generations to simply deny obvious truths and believe utter bollocks (Trump, Boris, climate change deniers, Covid deniers etc. etc.)?

I don't know why you're getting so worked up. If the shoe doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.

 

I've made clear in my posts that its not every single person in that generation is bad or follows the same trend but are you seriously telling me that people like Trump, Farage, Johnson, Xi, Putin, Musk, Bezos, Ted Cruz, MTG can be reasoned with to change  their ways and start putting people before profit and grift? Absolutely never going to happen so once they are gone, yes the world will be glad to see the back of them and their supporters/enablers. 

 

My generation only has a high carbon lifestyle because the previous generation has sought at every opportunity to prioritise profit over sustainability. We could be better but we are only working with the tools we are allowed to use and any attempt to change is quickly shut down by those who are richer and see it as a threat to shareholder profits. The technology for electric cars has been around for decades but was successfully kept down for years to prioritise the profits of big oil companies. 

 

Either way its not the whole generation that's bad but the vast majority of people in charge of the policies and the world are now from that generation and they are not making it any better and neither are their supporters who have a higher majority of support from the same generation. 

[Foxdiamond]

11 minutes ago, Dames said:

I don't know why people are getting so offended by it. Trump, Johnson, Farage, Putin, Bezos, Musk, Xi all come from the same generation and are all bad for the world in their own ways. 

 

Not to mention every CEO or Chairman of every company sucking the world dry and exploiting their workers will also be in this cohort too. Its people from that generation stopping progress on renewables because they want to get richer off fossil fuels, its people from that generation denying millions of Americans free healthcare, its people from that generation that have run Britain down so badly that barely any of our essential services are working, its people from that generation that have brought property on the cheap and ensured its remained a closed market for millions, its people from that generation that believe the greatest fight of our time is pronouns and not rampant exploitation.

 

I could go on and i've said in previous posts its not every single person from that generation that are like these people but as I've said the majority of the problems we have right now are down to the choices the people from this generation are making and those that come after will have to spend decades cleaning up after them. What I will say is the boomer generation did not do enough to stand up for what's right, a lot of these issues have been coming down the track for years but instead you all took an 'i'm alright jack attitude'.

 

You know most of us are just trying to get by. There have been strikes, pressure groups, donations to charity, bringing our children up to be kind, gentle and loving. Been working since we were 15 or 16. You say we all took a I'm alright Jack attitude.  Can you be sure that none of your generation will be the same. Millions of us did not vote for any of your examples. I get angry with how some people think and act but that goes for young and old. Did you care about the underpaid care worker looking after the wartime generation in their old age. You will find as you get very old (if you survive) that old people and those that look after them become largely invisible. You have no idea what struggles people have had to endure to make ends meet.