Cost of living crisis.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Fazzer 7 said:

So, there is on most other things. Honestly some people are never happy. 

But essentials such as gas/electric are 5%

food and children’s clothes is zero

 

where the col crisis is having the most effect (at the bottom rungs of society) , a reduction of general vat to 15% will be of minimal  help

 

it will help the middle classes and high spenders - hence could help drive a consumer led response against the impending recession 

sterling is diving through the floor against the dollar which will fuel inflation further. The new chancellor is walking a tightrope in the market - we need some policies which will help our currency strengthen to work against that exchange rate led inflation. 

 

 

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Not much good having a reduction in VAT if poorer people can't afford to feed their kids.

I suppose for people with so little disposable income that they don't spend anything on VATable goods, then a VAT cut won't so any good.  But then, those people really should be getting benefits anyway.  But if you do have spending on things other than food, a VAT cut will help.

Edited 29 August 2022 by dsr-burnley

[Foxdiamond]

16 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I suppose for people with so little disposable income that they don't spend anything on VATable goods, then a VAT cut won't so any good.  But then, those people really should be getting benefits anyway.  But if you do have spending on things other than food, a VAT cut will help.

I think we need a major intervention directly on energy bills. The VAT cut to these will not be enough given the rate of the rises predicted  

[kenny]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

I think we need a major intervention directly on energy bills. The VAT cut to these will not be enough given the rate of the rises predicted  

Like a direct cash payment to help cover them?

[Foxdiamond]

5 minutes ago, kenny said:

Like a direct cash payment to help cover them?

I was thinking more in line with Starmer's plan

[kenny]

5 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I was thinking more in line with Starmer's plan

Fair enough. Benefits everyone including the the wealthy, which is nice 

[Foxdiamond]

Just now, kenny said:

Fair enough. Benefits everyone including the the wealthy, which is nice 

Would there be added costs to make it means tested?

[Robo61]

2 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

So, there is on most other things. Honestly some people are never happy. 

So f***ing dumb headed you should be in line for a ministers post.  A reduction in VAT had so little benefit to those really struggling to be almost worth nothing to them, whilst benefiting those who will have no difficulty paying their bills this winter.  Any tax payers money used this winter to help people needs to be means tested or at the very least handed out in equal measure across the population,  otherwise people will die in numbers never experinced on a G7 economy.

[kenny]

8 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Would there be added costs to make it means tested?

No, just keep the energy price at the current rates, with the extra topped up by the government which is what France has done.

 

The IFS has said it will cost £30 billion every 6 months, though how this works if the price is higher in 6 months than it is now I'm not sure.

 

What it would do is help keep inflation levels down as well as help businesses. Means tested payments would only help needy people and leave businesses in bother.

 

In reality, there isn't a good answer or someone would be doing it already.

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

No, just keep the energy price at the current rates, with the extra topped up by the government which is what France has done.

 

The IFS has said it will cost £30 billion every 6 months, though how this works if the price is higher in 6 months than it is now I'm not sure.

 

What it would do is help keep inflation levels down as well as help businesses. Means tested payments would only help needy people and leave businesses in bother.

 

In reality, there isn't a good answer or someone would be doing it already.

Seems the best so far

[kenny]

9 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Seems the best so far

It does pour public money into the pockets of the energy producers for an indefinite period but maybe it is the best. I suspect it may end up costing us £200b if it lasts 18 months.

 

 

 

 

[fox_up_north]

£200bn that could be spent on our own infrastructure. As much as I am against HS2, I would rather we spend the money for the country rather than lining the rich man's pocket. 

 

Tax them. Tax them hard. What are they going to do - not operate in our country? 

[kenny]

7 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

£200bn that could be spent on our own infrastructure. As much as I am against HS2, I would rather we spend the money for the country rather than lining the rich man's pocket. 

 

Tax them. Tax them hard. What are they going to do - not operate in our country? 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/energy-crisis-why-french-households-are-largely-protected-from-soaring-costs-while-british-families-struggle-188417

 

This article is interesting and explains the current difference between France and the UK.

 

I suspect the next step will be more handouts for UC and pensioners rather than fixing energy prices.

 

 

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, Robo61 said:

So f***ing dumb headed you should be in line for a ministers post.  A reduction in VAT had so little benefit to those really struggling to be almost worth nothing to them, whilst benefiting those who will have no difficulty paying their bills this winter.  Any tax payers money used this winter to help people needs to be means tested or at the very least handed out in equal measure across the population,  otherwise people will die in numbers never experinced on a G7 economy.

Of course they won't.  Do you genuinely think this will be worse than the winter of 1946-47, when what coal there was was rationed and so was the food?  Or for that matter, remember covid?  You think it will be worse than that?

[st albans fox]

We must have a solution that they don’t have in the eu

 

so the tories can trumpet that it’s a bonus of leaving 

 

hence the vat cut 

 

As a country, we’re going to drown in dogma …..

[Fazzer 7]

1 hour ago, Robo61 said:

So f***ing dumb headed you should be in line for a ministers post.  A reduction in VAT had so little benefit to those really struggling to be almost worth nothing to them, whilst benefiting those who will have no difficulty paying their bills this winter.  Any tax payers money used this winter to help people needs to be means tested or at the very least handed out in equal measure across the population,  otherwise people will die in numbers never experinced on a G7 economy.

Target help to those who most need it. But don’t call me dumb headed for suggesting a 5% cut to vat wouldn’t  help boost the economy which is teetering on recession. It would. Axing the NI rise is dumb because the least well off don’t pay it anyway. 
 

[kenny]

2 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Target help to those who most need it. But don’t call me dumb headed for suggesting a 5% cut to vat wouldn’t  help boost the economy which is teetering on recession. It would. Axing the NI rise is dumb because the least well off don’t pay it anyway. 
 

However, although richer households pay more in indirect taxes than poorer ones in total, they pay less as a proportion of their income. The poorest fifth of households paid almost 30% of their disposable income in indirect tax – with VAT (12.8%) being the biggest component – compared with 14.6% of disposable income for the richest fifth of households. This means that indirect taxes increase inequality of income.

 

From the ONS.

[Fazzer 7]

The msm are doing exactly what they did with covid, pushing hysteria like their careers depend on it. No one in a typical 2, 3 or even a 4 bed house will pay 6k for their energy this winter, unless it’s set to 25 deg, in which case they deserve to. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

The msm are doing exactly what they did with covid, pushing hysteria like their careers depend on it. No one in a typical 2, 3 or even a 4 bed house will pay 6k for their energy this winter, unless it’s set to 25 deg, in which case they deserve to. 

Of course - sensationalism sells.

 

However, as with Covid (6 million hats on the ground over two years from a novel cause is hardly small beer, if that was from warfare then everyone would be going nuts), and with other problems with consequences of a more natural origin, sometimes the boogeyman is actually real and actually harmful.

[urban.spaceman]

50 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

The msm are doing exactly what they did with covid, pushing hysteria like their careers depend on it. No one in a typical 2, 3 or even a 4 bed house will pay 6k for their energy this winter, unless it’s set to 25 deg, in which case they deserve to. 

When did "reporting on an issue that the government has ignored that will lead to deaths because of said governmental apathy" become "pushing hysteria"?

[Fazzer 7]

7 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

When did "reporting on an issue that the government has ignored that will lead to deaths because of said governmental apathy" become "pushing hysteria"?

Like @leicsmac says, sensationalism sells. Give the gov a chance, the new PM takes the reigns next week, it will get sorted, no one will freeze to death this winter. It’s still warm, chill out man. 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

10k people a year freeze to death in this country. Easily a hundred k could this winter. So no, people aren't going to chill out over this. 

[urban.spaceman]

7 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Like @leicsmac says, sensationalism sells. Give the gov a chance, the new PM takes the reigns next week, it will get sorted, no one will freeze to death this winter. It’s still warm, chill out man. 

205,000 people are dead explicitly because of the government's disgraceful handling of COVID. What has the government done to earn my patience or faith in their ability to handle this?

[leicsmac]

Yeah, and this might not exactly be the only nasty winter ahead. Or even the worst.

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

Of course they won't.  Do you genuinely think this will be worse than the winter of 1946-47, when what coal there was was rationed and so was the food?  Or for that matter, remember covid?  You think it will be worse than that?

In terms of quality and quantity of years lost, yes this will be worse than covid imo . Thousands of people with decades to add to the workforce may/will die