The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[yorkie1999]

55 minutes ago, gerblod said:

Unfortunately, I'd forgotten that Johnson has a dual role as Leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister. It's a nuance lost on many of us, although, de facto, in our system, one has to be leader to be PM. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Guardian Friday edition front page states he's resigned as PM and LotCP. But there's an interim period until a fresh (?) leader can be found.

So he can go now and an interim Leader/Acting PM can take the position or he can hang around until the new leader is found?

His scathing comments about "the herd" and bitterness about being turned on show a man blind to his many failings.

We can scorn him for his narcissism and immorality, but the system allowed him to be elected by a tiny minority of ageing Home County nimbyist Conservative Party members. These people have difficulty distinguishing Starmer from Corbyn. Any resignation by a PM should result in a general election. That would then put the onus on whichever party was in power to choose a responsible and capable PM. 

Until that day and the introduction of PR, we suffer under the whims of low-level fanatics, self-seekers and conmen (and women). I believe, in the main, that Tory MPs see Westminster as just another exclusive club they can continue the good life in. I know there are conscientious MPs, yet their reputation is sullied by the privileged and entitled. Politics in this country needs a bloody good shake up.

So at the moment, he's still PM. PMQs next wednesday should be fun.

Edited 9 July 2022 by yorkie1999

[weller54]

[Foxdiamond]

58 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

When Cameron & May resigned they both continued in a caretaker position until a new leader was found, so this is quite normal.

Nothing normal about Johnson

[Foxdiamond]

30 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Thousands of copies of this should be posted to no 10 and handed out at the commons

[pSinatra]

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

5 minutes ago, pSinatra said:

 

I think what the country really needs right now is someone in charge with, to all intents and purposes, infinite money

[urban.spaceman]

 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Sunak will put everyone over 5 ft 4 into camps and make Warwick Davis chancellor 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

When Cameron & May resigned they both continued in a caretaker position until a new leader was found, so this is quite normal.

 

Cameron & May both resigned due to a specific failure of policy, not blatant dishonesty, shambolic conduct and personal unsuitability for office.

 

Cameron resigned voluntarily as he'd failed to secure a Remain vote in the referendum. May resigned under some pressure as she'd failed to get a Brexit deal through parliament (& had been weakened by a poor election performance).

As with other PMs, people will have different views of Cameron & May (both below average, I'd say) but very few would say either was so irresponsible and personally unfit for office that they needed to be removed immediately.

 

Anyway, it looks as if the Tories are going to allow him to stay on and will just rush their leadership election so they have someone to take over ASAP, fingers crossed that BJ doesn't do anything too outrageous - hardly ideal at a time of crisis.

I wonder what Johnson will do in his remaining weeks to boost his narcissistic ego, entertain himself or revenge himself on rivals? Will be surprising if he just goes quietly, modestly and responsibly after a lifetime of mayhem...

 

Anyone know how it will work with this parliamentary vote of confidence that Starmer says he's going to call? Can the vote be against Johnson personally or does it have to be against the govt as a whole?

Could be a bit awkward for Tory MPs, especially leadership contenders, if it's against Johnson personally and they're expected to express confidence in Bozo. Easier for them if it's a confidence vote in the govt overall.... 

[Foxdiamond]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cameron & May both resigned due to a specific failure of policy, not blatant dishonesty, shambolic conduct and personal unsuitability for office.

 

Cameron resigned voluntarily as he'd failed to secure a Remain vote in the referendum. May resigned under some pressure as she'd failed to get a Brexit deal through parliament (& had been weakened by a poor election performance).

As with other PMs, people will have different views of Cameron & May (both below average, I'd say) but very few would say either was so irresponsible and personally unfit for office that they needed to be removed immediately.

 

Anyway, it looks as if the Tories are going to allow him to stay on and will just rush their leadership election so they have someone to take over ASAP, fingers crossed that BJ doesn't do anything too outrageous - hardly ideal at a time of crisis.

I wonder what Johnson will do in his remaining weeks to boost his narcissistic ego, entertain himself or revenge himself on rivals? Will be surprising if he just goes quietly, modestly and responsibly after a lifetime of mayhem...

 

Anyone know how it will work with this parliamentary vote of confidence that Starmer says he's going to call? Can the vote be against Johnson personally or does it have to be against the govt as a whole?

Could be a bit awkward for Tory MPs, especially leadership contenders, if it's against Johnson personally and they're expected to express confidence in Bozo. Easier for them if it's a confidence vote in the govt overall.... 

The other thing is we will be subjected to all these Tory talking heads banging on for weeks while the country goes down the pan 

[The Horse's Mouth]

7 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cameron & May both resigned due to a specific failure of policy, not blatant dishonesty, shambolic conduct and personal unsuitability for office.

 

Cameron resigned voluntarily as he'd failed to secure a Remain vote in the referendum. May resigned under some pressure as she'd failed to get a Brexit deal through parliament (& had been weakened by a poor election performance).

As with other PMs, people will have different views of Cameron & May (both below average, I'd say) but very few would say either was so irresponsible and personally unfit for office that they needed to be removed immediately.

 

Anyway, it looks as if the Tories are going to allow him to stay on and will just rush their leadership election so they have someone to take over ASAP, fingers crossed that BJ doesn't do anything too outrageous - hardly ideal at a time of crisis.

I wonder what Johnson will do in his remaining weeks to boost his narcissistic ego, entertain himself or revenge himself on rivals? Will be surprising if he just goes quietly, modestly and responsibly after a lifetime of mayhem...

 

Anyone know how it will work with this parliamentary vote of confidence that Starmer says he's going to call? Can the vote be against Johnson personally or does it have to be against the govt as a whole?

Could be a bit awkward for Tory MPs, especially leadership contenders, if it's against Johnson personally and they're expected to express confidence in Bozo. Easier for them if it's a confidence vote in the govt overall.... 

I don't even think that's the reason for Boris losing support amongst the party, this has likely been triggered by the polls and the bi elections, don't get it twisted thinking these people are genuinely put off by someone's integrity.

 

I think the fear of him going out with a bang, taking revenge and so on is extremely unlikely, I think some of his cabinet appointments for the interim period suggests this, a lot of them wouldn't have been in the Boris camp even when things were Rosey.

 

I will say as well, based on the speech, based on the sheer stubbornness to resign amongst the blood shattering, I genuinely think he's thinks hes got a chance to run again, and if people genuinely think we could see a 97 style turn around and a complete decimation of the Tory party in an election(which honestly I feel is rather far fetched) he's probably got a good chance of it if he was to run again(as Tory leader that is), because I think a lot of suggestion amongst the red wall seats and a lot of boris' voter base were all first time voters, he'd have a good case amongst what would be a very desperate and depleted Tory party.

 

I'm pretty sure it has to be against the government right? Because I think when questioned, the reporter I seen suggested that it would be a fools move as it would probably get a bit of Tory unity. And even if it was against Boris personally, he's going anyway and they have a massive majority so again kinda pointless and futile really 

 

 

[Legend_in_blue]

16 hours ago, weller54 said:

If the Tories choose any previous cabinet minister for our new PM they are going to be tainted from the link with Johnson!!

They'll lose the next GE.  And if they decide to go down that route, they deserve to lose power!

So that really leaves one of the outsiders/backbenchers to come through.

Who, I don't know.

 

[Alf Bentley]

19 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

I don't even think that's the reason for Boris losing support amongst the party, this has likely been triggered by the polls and the bi elections, don't get it twisted thinking these people are genuinely put off by someone's integrity.

 

I think the fear of him going out with a bang, taking revenge and so on is extremely unlikely, I think some of his cabinet appointments for the interim period suggests this, a lot of them wouldn't have been in the Boris camp even when things were Rosey.

 

I will say as well, based on the speech, based on the sheer stubbornness to resign amongst the blood shattering, I genuinely think he's thinks hes got a chance to run again, and if people genuinely think we could see a 97 style turn around and a complete decimation of the Tory party in an election(which honestly I feel is rather far fetched) he's probably got a good chance of it if he was to run again(as Tory leader that is), because I think a lot of suggestion amongst the red wall seats and a lot of boris' voter base were all first time voters, he'd have a good case amongst what would be a very desperate and depleted Tory party.

 

I'm pretty sure it has to be against the government right? Because I think when questioned, the reporter I seen suggested that it would be a fools move as it would probably get a bit of Tory unity. And even if it was against Boris personally, he's going anyway and they have a massive majority so again kinda pointless and futile really 

 

 

 

To be fair, there is a principled minority among Tory MPs and members who are genuinely alienated by Johnson's lack of integrity. For most, I agree, it is the electorate finally noticing his lack of integrity that has concentrated their minds.

 

It will be interesting to see how BJ conducts himself both before and after the handover, though I can't imagine even someone with his narcissistic delusions can believe he'll be back as leader.....can he?!  

There's no sign of any repeat of 1997. Even now, I'd say there's more chance of the Tories winning a majority in 2024 than of Labour doing so, though there's now a good chance that the Tories will lose and a Lab minority or coalition take over. Especially as seriously rough times are ahead for millions of people - which the Govt will struggle to address just with tax cuts & consequent spending cuts (which sounds their likely route), unless the economy recovers rapidly by 2024.

 

As usual, Starmer can't win whatever he does. Just the other day TV journalists and Tory opponents were lambasting him for NOT calling a confidence vote in parliament....knowing full well that (at that stage) he'd be bound to lose it, given the Tory majority, and risked boosting Tory unity, as you say. If it is a vote against the govt as a whole, I presume he's now decided to call it, expecting to lose but to provide future rhetorical ammunition - he'll be able to further tar Tory opponents with having expressed confidence in a Johnson Govt to the very end. It also plays into public misconceptions about how British democracy works - a lot of voters always say that any change of PM should mean a general election, even though that's not how the system works. It's an easy way of scoring a few points with the electorate, I suppose.

 

 

[The Horse's Mouth]

24 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

 

It will be interesting to see how BJ conducts himself both before and after the handover, though I can't imagine even someone with his narcissistic delusions can believe he'll be back as leader.....can he?!  

There's no sign of any repeat of 1997. Even now, I'd say there's more chance of the Tories winning a majority in 2024 than of Labour doing so, though there's now a good chance that the Tories will lose and a Lab minority or coalition take over. Especially as seriously rough times are ahead for millions of people - which the Govt will struggle to address just with tax cuts & consequent spending cuts (which sounds their likely route), unless the economy recovers rapidly by 2024.

 

As usual, Starmer can't win whatever he does. Just the other day TV journalists and Tory opponents were lambasting him for NOT calling a confidence vote in parliament....knowing full well that (at that stage) he'd be bound to lose it, given the Tory majority, and risked boosting Tory unity, as you say. If it is a vote against the govt as a whole, I presume he's now decided to call it, expecting to lose but to provide future rhetorical ammunition - he'll be able to further tar Tory opponents with having expressed confidence in a Johnson Govt to the very end. It also plays into public misconceptions about how British democracy works - a lot of voters always say that any change of PM should mean a general election, even though that's not how the system works. It's an easy way of scoring a few points with the electorate, I suppose.

 

 

I might be mad for thinking it, but Boris is a one off. This wasn't a recognition of defeat, he fought to the death and still very clearly would keep the job tomorrow if they said sorry lad. With the leadership on both sides being fairly underwhelming for the situation the country is in, a few years times, things potentially getting worse, the nostalgia coloured glasses on.. I could maybe see it. Saying that it depends how much fun he has making millions talking shite to suits around the world.

 

Yeah I know what you mean, I'm no fan of Starmer but I don't think this is a stick to beat him with. I think his best call is to have a bit of a ceasefire now, they're destroying themselves within and with no real outstanding running candidate it could get very tasty with Keir not having to get involved at all, I think it might be the best thing for the country as well, we are in a crisis, adding another clown to the circus amongst this absolute mess feels misjudged, but that's party politics 

[Foxdiamond]

29 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

To be fair, there is a principled minority among Tory MPs and members who are genuinely alienated by Johnson's lack of integrity. For most, I agree, it is the electorate finally noticing his lack of integrity that has concentrated their minds.

 

It will be interesting to see how BJ conducts himself both before and after the handover, though I can't imagine even someone with his narcissistic delusions can believe he'll be back as leader.....can he?!  

There's no sign of any repeat of 1997. Even now, I'd say there's more chance of the Tories winning a majority in 2024 than of Labour doing so, though there's now a good chance that the Tories will lose and a Lab minority or coalition take over. Especially as seriously rough times are ahead for millions of people - which the Govt will struggle to address just with tax cuts & consequent spending cuts (which sounds their likely route), unless the economy recovers rapidly by 2024.

 

As usual, Starmer can't win whatever he does. Just the other day TV journalists and Tory opponents were lambasting him for NOT calling a confidence vote in parliament....knowing full well that (at that stage) he'd be bound to lose it, given the Tory majority, and risked boosting Tory unity, as you say. If it is a vote against the govt as a whole, I presume he's now decided to call it, expecting to lose but to provide future rhetorical ammunition - he'll be able to further tar Tory opponents with having expressed confidence in a Johnson Govt to the very end. It also plays into public misconceptions about how British democracy works - a lot of voters always say that any change of PM should mean a general election, even though that's not how the system works. It's an easy way of scoring a few points with the electorate, I suppose.

 

 

Always amazes me how a Labour leader has to work harder to convince the public. Surely they don't all read Tory rags these days. I agree there must be caring one nation Tories but the Thatcher faction is still rife. I suppose Mandelson and Blair did pull off a trick in 97

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

Always amazes me how a Labour leader has to work harder to convince the public. Surely they don't all read Tory rags these days. I agree there must be caring one nation Tories but the Thatcher faction is still rife. I suppose Mandelson and Blair did pull off a trick in 97

Nature of being in opposition tbf, only feels like it's exclusive to labour because of how long the Tories have had the mandate 

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Nature of being in opposition tbf, only feels like it's exclusive to labour because of how long the Tories have had the mandate 

Fair point. Of course our voting system does skew the so called mandate

[Lionator]

I don’t see any of the tories that can turn it around with electorate. Sunak is the worst person to lead during a cost of living crisis, Truss is a pathetic, diplomatic laughing stock who stands for nothing, Mordaunt is a pro-remain, pro-trans rights (which means she won’t win with the Tory base) and Tugenhadt literally advocated going to war with Russia and banning Russians from living here. Get them out. 

[Alf Bentley]

Surprised to see Ben Wallace has ruled himself out of standing for Tory leader. A bit relieved, too, from a party political perspective as he might have been popular with voters and hard for Labour to deal with (calm, competent manner & ex-military background). One poll of party members had him as the most popular potential candidate. Maybe he saw the writing on the wall with so many still wanting a Brexiteer as leader (he was a Remainer, apparently)?

 

It's really hard to see who the Tories will choose - though much will depend on whether they still have the party members' ballot with the last 2 or ditch that for speed and just allow the MPs to choose.

 

Hunt and Tugenhadt are surely too moderate to win? Will they forgive Truss for having been a Remainer, because she's a tax-cutting, right-wing Thatcherite? Will they forgive Sunak for increasing tax and his role bringing down Johnson?

People like Schapps, Badenoch & Braverman are surely too lightweight? Javid doesn't seem popular enough, likewise Zahawi, though he has a good back story (arrived as a child refugee from Saddam's Iraq). Maybe Mordaunt will have traction - another who might be a tough opponent for Starmer? 

[The Horse's Mouth]

34 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Surprised to see Ben Wallace has ruled himself out of standing for Tory leader. A bit relieved, too, from a party political perspective as he might have been popular with voters and hard for Labour to deal with (calm, competent manner & ex-military background). One poll of party members had him as the most popular potential candidate. Maybe he saw the writing on the wall with so many still wanting a Brexiteer as leader (he was a Remainer, apparently)?

 

It's really hard to see who the Tories will choose - though much will depend on whether they still have the party members' ballot with the last 2 or ditch that for speed and just allow the MPs to choose.

 

Hunt and Tugenhadt are surely too moderate to win? Will they forgive Truss for having been a Remainer, because she's a tax-cutting, right-wing Thatcherite? Will they forgive Sunak for increasing tax and his role bringing down Johnson?

People like Schapps, Badenoch & Braverman are surely too lightweight? Javid doesn't seem popular enough, likewise Zahawi, though he has a good back story (arrived as a child refugee from Saddam's Iraq). Maybe Mordaunt will have traction - another who might be a tough opponent for Starmer? 

Think it's going to be down to Truss and Mordaunt. Truss appealing to the more Thatcherite part of the party, whereas Mordaunt a bit similar to say the Cameron era of the party. I can see braverman being a darkhorse though, see baker endorsed her so I think the brexit wing of the party will be all over that.

 

Sunak I just can't see, which is hilarious cause probably a year ago you'd have seen him win unopposed

 

Hunt, no chance public hate him and I can't imagine the membership love him either 

 

And the rest kinda feel a bit lightweight, zahawi's manoeuvring this week will play against him, I don't think Javids really shown anything despite being in two prominent roles in the cabinet, and schapps just feels like a Hancock without the controversy

 

[Lionator]

18 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Think it's going to be down to Truss and Mordaunt. Truss appealing to the more Thatcherite part of the party, whereas Mordaunt a bit similar to say the Cameron era of the party. I can see braverman being a darkhorse though, see baker endorsed her so I think the brexit wing of the party will be all over that.

 

Sunak I just can't see, which is hilarious cause probably a year ago you'd have seen him win unopposed

 

Hunt, no chance public hate him and I can't imagine the membership love him either 

 

And the rest kinda feel a bit lightweight, zahawi's manoeuvring this week will play against him, I don't think Javids really shown anything despite being in two prominent roles in the cabinet, and schapps just feels like a Hancock without the controversy

 

Bravermann is an absolute shambles of a politician. Attorney general who advocates and doesn’t understand what is breaking the law. 

[st albans fox]

25 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Bravermann is an absolute shambles of a politician. Attorney general who advocates and doesn’t understand what is breaking the law. 

Does that matter ?  I doubt the membership will care ……

[weller54]

Educating our kids on how to give the middle finger salute!!

[String fellow]

4 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Think it's going to be down to Truss and Mordaunt. Truss appealing to the more Thatcherite part of the party, whereas Mordaunt a bit similar to say the Cameron era of the party. I can see braverman being a darkhorse though, see baker endorsed her so I think the brexit wing of the party will be all over that.

 

Sunak I just can't see, which is hilarious cause probably a year ago you'd have seen him win unopposed

 

Hunt, no chance public hate him and I can't imagine the membership love him either 

 

And the rest kinda feel a bit lightweight, zahawi's manoeuvring this week will play against him, I don't think Javids really shown anything despite being in two prominent roles in the cabinet, and schapps just feels like a Hancock without the controversy

 

I'd have thought that one crucial factor is the likelihood of whoever gets the job retaining their own constituency seat at the next GE. As of right now, it seems that even the safer Conservative seats aren't guaranteed to remain so, unless the party can regain its credibilty and fix the economy in the time it has left before the GE. With that thought in mind, maybe my MP, Alicia Kearns, should put her hat in the ring. If she were to win, we'd then be going from porky pies under Boris to pork pies under Alicia!  

Edited 9 July 2022 by String fellow

[The Horse's Mouth]

15 minutes ago, String fellow said:

I'd have thought that one crucial factor is the likelihood of whoever gets the job retaining their own constituency seat at the next GE. As of right now, it seems that even some the safer Conservative seats aren't guaranteed to remain so, unless the party can regain its credibilty and fix the economy in the time it has left before the GE. With that thought in mind, maybe my MP, Alicia Kearns, should put her hat in the ring. If she were to win, we'd then be going from porky pies under Boris to pork pies under Alicia!  

Potentially but there's always ways around that, I remember last election early doors before we knew the full story, that it was strongly rumoured Boris would lose his seat. I think the case put forward was they would just have someone in a safe seat step down and run a bi election, or there was something about the house of lords.