The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Jon the Hat]

22 minutes ago, Lionator said:

If you want an example of how utterly messed up the whole system is, Labour this week pledged to remove charitable status for private schools, which means fee payers will have to pay VAT on top of fees. The VAT gets reinvested into public services, apart from the very rich, how can anybody argue against that? Now google it and look at the media coverage of it, all from the fee payer perspective of how this could be catastrophic for private schools. 

Your logic here is rather backwards.  The very rich don't care, they can afford private schools regardless.  Those impacted are people who are not very rich who choose to send their children to private schools, for all kinds of reasons.  I do think there is a case for removing Charitable status, but I am not convinced it will do anything other than make Private schools even more elite by pushing out the professional classes.  You might also therefore end up having some more VAT but having to fund many thousands more state school places with it.  If people want to pay to send their kids to private school I don't really see the harm.  How about investing in state schools so they have better facilities?

Edited 15 July 2022 by Jon the Hat

[Jon the Hat]

7 minutes ago, Dames said:

Furlough isn’t causing the current economic problems. Its greedy shareholders rigging the system to get record payouts to make up for the lost profits during covid. 

Damn those greedy shareholders with their pensions.

[Dames]

24 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Damn those greedy shareholders with their pensions.

I’m sure a huge amount of the profits from energy companies are going directly into pension pots and that pensioners are in for a record increase this winter right?

[Voll Blau]

Love how the RMT have a never-ending supply of Cockney hardmen to wheel out on the tele...

 

 

[foxes1988]

30 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Damn those greedy shareholders with their pensions.

Sure pensions are a part of it but isn't it a small amount like 6%.

 

To be fair Pensioners got to get greedy now if they don't want immigrants paying for their pensions anymore (s)

[foxes1988]

1 hour ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Furlough was probably the right thing to do. But you can’t print/borrow and spend hundreds of billions of pounds without causing all the economic problems we’re now facing and will continue to suffer for a year or 3. The war in Ukraine has fanned the fire, and god knows how that will finish up. Seems like msm are now primming us for winter fuel rationing. 

Its definitely a part of it but it was more down to the speed of the reopening our economies rather then just purely the 'printing money'.  Economist have largely agreed that inflation has largely been supply driven rather then demand driven.  If the furlough scheme was such a big driver the inflation would be more demand driven.

[Captain...]

40 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Your logic here is rather backwards.  The very rich don't care, they can afford private schools regardless.  Those impacted are people who are not very rich who choose to send their children to private schools, for all kinds of reasons.  I do think there is a case for removing Charitable status, but I am not convinced it will do anything other than make Private schools even more elite by pushing out the professional classes.  You might also therefore end up having some more VAT but having to fund many thousands more state school places with it.  If people want to pay to send their kids to private school I don't really see the harm.  How about investing in state schools so they have better facilities?

And how can we invest in state schools? I know, lets tax the private schools.

 

Private schools will not take on fewer kids, they will drop their fees to attract more pupils to fill their class rooms. A class of 20 costs more or less the same to run as a class of 30 but generates a lot less revenue. Private schools can afford to pay their tax they have the backing and wealth behind them to not struggle and have a lot more revenue streams available to fundraise/increase revenue in other ways. It's a no brainer for me, but it's also not a game changer the amount of money it will generate will barely be noticed 

[Nalis]

32 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Love how the RMT have a never-ending supply of Cockney hardmen to wheel out on the tele...

 

 

Looks like Chris Waddle had a love child from his Spurs days

[Nalis]

Vast majority of us dont get wage increases in line with inflation in the private sector but of course its different for the demanding RMT as they are in a unique position to have the ability to bring the country to a standstill when they dont get their way.

[Voll Blau]

 

When you've got PMQs at 12 but Millwall away at etc, etc...

[Innovindil]

17 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Vast majority of us dont get wage increases in line with inflation in the private sector but of course its different for the demanding RMT as they are in a unique position to have the ability to bring the country to a standstill when they dont get their way.

The thing you need to remember is you SHOULD be getting wage increases in line with inflation. This is everyone's fight. And make no mistake, RMT aren't in a unique position, there's a record amount of jobs available at the minute, and not enough workers to cover them. 

[CosbehFox]

Other half is from there and that’s pretty mind blowing

[LVFox]

26 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

When you've got PMQs at 12 but Millwall away at etc, etc...

I'm getting real "Wealdstone Raider before the wife left him" vibes.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

I’m sure a huge amount of the profits from energy companies are going directly into pension pots and that pensioners are in for a record increase this winter right?

Yes on the first and no on the second.  If you are already a pensioner your pension is likely already set.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Vast majority of us dont get wage increases in line with inflation in the private sector but of course its different for the demanding RMT as they are in a unique position to have the ability to bring the country to a standstill when they dont get their way.

 

The RMT haven't won anything yet. But if they do perhaps the lesson is that joining a union to stand up for your rights is more effective than moaning on a football forum?

 

The disruption is a pain in the arse. The August strikes will directly affect me as I've arranged to take my daughter away by train for a few days. But if negotiations and lobbying fails, how can a union exert influence other than by industrial action? 

 

Also, I haven't looked at the RMT case in detail, but I know that it's not all about pay. It's also about planned redundancies, transport safety and the terms and conditions for mechanization. Even if it was only about pay, should people just accept a real-terms pay cut during a cost of living crisis while doffing their caps to the owners of profitable industries that offer the public a piss-poor, overpriced service and to their managers who earn millions in bonuses for achieving those profits?

 

These workers are also some of the same "key workers" who were applauded on doorsteps 2 years ago, as they put their lives on the line with Covid - transport workers were among the professions most hard hit by the pandemic.

 

I'm not sure what point you're making by referring to the "private sector" as most RMT workers are employed by private sector firms, aren't they?

If it's the old "pampered public sector" v. "underpaid private sector" chestnut, here's the FT.....

https://www.ft.com/content/48dafbb9-371d-4683-9afb-26652add888c

Sometimes public sector workers may do better than private (e.g. during pandemic), but often they don't - and they aren't now...

 

"Wage deals for UK public sector workers are falling behind those on offer in the private sector, exacerbating already acute staffing pressures in schools, hospitals and local authority services. Data from the research group XpertHR, published on Wednesday, shows the median public sector pay award was just 1.4 per cent in the year to March 2022, well behind the private sector median of 2.2 per cent for the same period. The difference is increasing. Official data show annual growth in total average earnings reached a 15-year high of 6.2 per cent in the private sector in the first three months of 2022 — while falling to a five-year low of 1.9 per cent in the public sector".

[Nalis]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

The RMT haven't won anything yet. But if they do perhaps the lesson is that joining a union to stand up for your rights is more effective than moaning on a football forum?

 

The disruption is a pain in the arse. The August strikes will directly affect me as I've arranged to take my daughter away by train for a few days. But if negotiations and lobbying fails, how can a union exert influence other than by industrial action? 

 

Also, I haven't looked at the RMT case in detail, but I know that it's not all about pay. It's also about planned redundancies, transport safety and the terms and conditions for mechanization. Even if it was only about pay, should people just accept a real-terms pay cut during a cost of living crisis while doffing their caps to the owners of profitable industries that offer the public a piss-poor, overpriced service and to their managers who earn millions in bonuses for achieving those profits?

 

These workers are also some of the same "key workers" who were applauded on doorsteps 2 years ago, as they put their lives on the line with Covid - transport workers were among the professions most hard hit by the pandemic.

 

I'm not sure what point you're making by referring to the "private sector" as most RMT workers are employed by private sector firms, aren't they?

If it's the old "pampered public sector" v. "underpaid private sector" chestnut, here's the FT.....

https://www.ft.com/content/48dafbb9-371d-4683-9afb-26652add888c

Sometimes public sector workers may do better than private (e.g. during pandemic), but often they don't - and they aren't now...

 

"Wage deals for UK public sector workers are falling behind those on offer in the private sector, exacerbating already acute staffing pressures in schools, hospitals and local authority services. Data from the research group XpertHR, published on Wednesday, shows the median public sector pay award was just 1.4 per cent in the year to March 2022, well behind the private sector median of 2.2 per cent for the same period. The difference is increasing. Official data show annual growth in total average earnings reached a 15-year high of 6.2 per cent in the private sector in the first three months of 2022 — while falling to a five-year low of 1.9 per cent in the public sector".

Fair points, I will give you that. I just dont think striking is the right option here.

 

There are a few industries that have done extremely well which probably skews the stats a bit so I'd personally query that tool.

 

Finally, I wasnt 'moaning on a footbal forum' about my own working conditions if thats what you seem to be getting at btw....

[Foxdiamond]

3 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

At work they call me The Trenchcoat because I tend to work from home on Wednesdays. 

Hand grenades actually cause a great deal of damage. So the nickname probably suits Truss

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

Love how the RMT have a never-ending supply of Cockney hardmen to wheel out on the tele...

 

 

Spot on. 

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Love how the RMT have a never-ending supply of Cockney hardmen to wheel out on the tele...

 

 

Tories will never accept when it is the right time to increase wages. Even when the economy is doing well they warn against greedy workers wanting to improve their living standards. Now in bad times they have accept a real cut in standards. 

[Alf Bentley]

29 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Fair points, I will give you that. I just dont think striking is the right option here.

 

There are a few industries that have done extremely well which probably skews the stats a bit so I'd personally query that tool.

 

Finally, I wasnt 'moaning on a footbal forum' about my own working conditions if thats what you seem to be getting at btw....

 

Sorry if my reply was over-personal in tone. I didn't assume you were only moaning about your own conditions. But I assumed from the "vast majority of us" sentence that you were including yourself in that majority who, by implication, were getting a much worse deal than the RMT would get by needlessly striking.

 

Incidentally, although I support the idea of trade unionism, I'm not mindlessly uncritical of unions. I've been a union member in the past. Sometimes they were well-run and effective, sometimes they were useless or had harmful political agendas (Trotskyites seeking confrontation to foment revolutionary consciousness etc.!). I've heard nothing from the RMT that sounds unreasonable - and, as a service user, think more questions should be asked of train companies and their bosses as to why we have some of the worst, most over-priced trains in Europe while they often make large profits and executive bonuses. Similar questions should be asked of the Govt, but we know a lot of it is laissez-faire ideology with them.

 

I take your second point about pay being much lower than average in some industries and much higher in others. But the figures quoted are medians, not means, so they're the figures slap bang in the middle, not an average distorted upwards by high pay in particular industries. A more valid point would be that they are short-term figures. Typically, workers in the private sector were harder hit by the pandemic than those in the public sector.....but stats over a longer timespan (5 yrs, 12 yrs, whatever) would show public sector workers doing worse.

 

Your first point begs the question: "what is the right option?" The RMT have clearly tried negotiating with employers and lobbying govt. What alternatives do they have, aside from capitulating and accepting an offer of a large real-terms pay cut, significant redundancies and mechanization/automation introduced on terms they deem harmful?

 

 

Edited 15 July 2022 by Alf Bentley

[orangecity23]

The Tories couldn't be lying more when they say they want a high wage high productivity economy. They don't give a flying **** about wages, in fact they'd like them as low as possible, they don't want to invest in infrustructure that could improve productivity, they won't invest in education to create a highly skilled future workforce, they won't invest in manufacturing or anything productive, they won't invest in healthcare to ensure that the workforce is healthy and in good condition.

 

They want a high house price, high asset price, low wage, low job security, speculator-driven asset bubble economy. They want to sell anything they can get their hands on. They want 50 year mortgages, later retirements, people retiring later and dying sooner then debts being passed onto their children as the return on investment from leaching one persons entire working life isn't enough to justify them being able to have a roof over their heads, they need to be able to sell their children out as well. They want the NHS to get out their way so they can start selling health insurance to us all, all those old biddies needing hip replacements are a lost sales opportunity, why do the surgery at a fair price when you can take advantage of the fact they're deperate to suck their pension fund dry. They don't want more productivity, they don't want actual people making actual tangible products, the only products they want are financial ones. It's not an industrial economy, it's a spivocracy where a bunch of feckless salesmen rampage across the land flogging other people's things to ensure that they can make a quick buck and to hell with the consequences.

Edited 15 July 2022 by orangecity23

[bmt]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Love how the RMT have a never-ending supply of Cockney hardmen to wheel out on the tele...

 

 

Wage-price spiral, dear oh dear. 

[String fellow]

Apparently, the average salary for train drivers is £54k, which is more than specialist doctors' pay. I'm not convinced that train drivers' jobs require more skills than those of specialist doctors.

Edited 15 July 2022 by String fellow

[kenny]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

The thing you need to remember is you SHOULD be getting wage increases in line with inflation. This is everyone's fight. And make no mistake, RMT aren't in a unique position, there's a record amount of jobs available at the minute, and not enough workers to cover them. 

I think that should sort itself within the next 6 months or so...

[kenny]

40 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sorry if my reply was over-personal in tone. I didn't assume you were only moaning about your own conditions. But I assumed from the "vast majority of us" sentence that you were including yourself in that majority who, by implication, were getting a much worse deal than the RMT would get by needlessly striking.

 

Incidentally, although I support the idea of trade unionism, I'm not mindlessly uncritical of unions. I've been a union member in the past. Sometimes they were well-run and effective, sometimes they were useless or had harmful political agendas (Trotskyites seeking confrontation to foment revolutionary consciousness etc.!). I've heard nothing from the RMT that sounds unreasonable - and, as a service user, think more questions should be asked of train companies and their bosses as to why we have some of the worst, most over-priced trains in Europe while they often make large profits and executive bonuses. Similar questions should be asked of the Govt, but we know a lot of it is laissez-faire ideology with them.

 

I take your second point about pay being much lower than average in some industries and much higher in others. But the figures quoted are medians, not means, so they're the figures slap bang in the middle, not an average distorted upwards by high pay in particular industries. A more valid point would be that they are short-term figures. Typically, workers in the private sector were harder hit by the pandemic than those in the public sector.....but stats over a longer timespan (5 yrs, 12 yrs, whatever) would show public sector workers doing worse.

 

Your first point begs the question: "what is the right option?" The RMT have clearly tried negotiating with employers and lobbying govt. What alternatives do they have, aside from capitulating and accepting an offer of a large real-terms pay cut, significant redundancies and mechanization/automation introduced on terms they deem harmful?

 

 

The other issue is that since Covid the trains are being used less. So as a result the cost to run them per journey is going up all the time which the RMT have no interest in.

 

If you can't rely on the trains to run then people will be less inclined to use them, so the RMT are damaging their own product. This will set public transport use back in this country and encourage people to rely on their cars.