Fazzer 7 Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 36 minutes ago, Nalis said: Crazy isnt it? I'm interested to know who exactly Owen thinks we should vote for in the next GE to stop the Tories from winning. A left leaning Corbyn got beat twice. Just very confused by what Owen Jones is trying to achieve here. Little Owen and his commie sidekick Ash Sarkar are the gifts that keep on giving. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 42 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: For a group of activists whining for the last few years about Labour sabotaging itself under Corbyn it amazes me that they don't realise that's exactly what they're doing now especially when Starmer has a better lead in the polls than Corbyn ever had. Once again they'd much prefer to be "right" than to be effective. Oh, and also: Infairness it's no where near the self sabotaging, the membership being vocal about Starmer being Tory lite and abandoning his promises on gaining election to the party, as opposed to actual MPs rejecting Corbyn from the off and wanting rid immediately is a bit different. I mean nobody is going to be effective for a person they don't really believe in, the party's issues haven't gone away and if anything Starmers done a lot to create more division amongst the membership . Luckily for Keir, the Tory's self destruction has left him unscathed so far 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 1 hour ago, taupe said: I don't rate Jones as a journalist at all. His brand of socialism seems rooted in the past to me, there's no concession to where we are today. He's full of idealistic vision with zero idea about how to practically get there. He'd sink the boat and only then think about plotting a course. John Harris, on the other hand, is aware of the lay of the land. He's way more in touch with Jones will ever be. He's a commentator, not a journalist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 I don't agree with a lot of what owen Jones says, but I do enjoy his little interview things. Him and Hitchens have a weirdly good chemistry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taupe Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 13 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: He's a commentator, not a journalist. I don't rate him as a commentator either 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellend Sebastian Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 6 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said: The likes of them pair wanted it for two reasons. They’d gambled a considerable amount of money on the markets. Then to strip away competition law to allow them and their mates businesses a free reign. Depends also if you believe in Banks relations with Russians. Putin’s quiet war at the moment is destabilising European democracies into popular movement to create chaos. The eye goes off on the Russians to domestic problems. In the context of politics, Vac is right. It was a popularity movement rather than an outright campaign targeting the woes of the EU. Didn’t take long into the negotiation process for they to appear. The right wing press pre set position is anger rather than celebration. So don’t expect them to talk it up. I happen to think the UK is weary of chat now. Weary that another headline is that of another story fcuk up. Not quite sure how that translates into elections and votes cos Labour and Starmer are hardly ahead of the game. Always find politics and elections are not defined by what affects the average Joe but the comfortable, well paid middle class and I get the impression they are going to feel the pinch over the coming months. Anyway I’ve gone into a tangible waffle. So there. Agree with pretty much all of that, and as for relationships with the Russians, I think there are lots of questions to be answered there. The telling thing for me is the lengths Banks went to shut Carole Cadwalladr up - given the total lack of interest in the matter on the part of the rest of the press I would've thought that was much easier to ignore however irritating it might be 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaphamFox Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 1 hour ago, taupe said: I don't rate him as a commentator either The vast majority of his columns are just him expressing how very upset and angry he is about something. You never learn anything from them other than his emotional state - he just elevates hysterical screaming into a kind of performance art. He's rubbish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosbehFox Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 The maddening thing with Jones is; his two books where he's the eye of an editor on them are superb. He has no filter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post urban.spaceman Posted 26 July 2022 Popular Post Share Posted 26 July 2022 2 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said: Infairness it's no where near the self sabotaging, the membership being vocal about Starmer being Tory lite and abandoning his promises on gaining election to the party, as opposed to actual MPs rejecting Corbyn from the off and wanting rid immediately is a bit different. I mean nobody is going to be effective for a person they don't really believe in, the party's issues haven't gone away and if anything Starmers done a lot to create more division amongst the membership . Luckily for Keir, the Tory's self destruction has left him unscathed so far It's always been weird to me that people complained about MPs rejecting Corbyn when Corbyn had voted against his own party hundreds of times in his previous 30 years as an MP - what did people expect? You can't really expect to lead a party well when your views and principles have always been miles apart. Add to that his shocking judgment of character, events and allies - he was such an easy target for the Conservatives because he gave them so much material. My annoyance at these activists going after Starmer is mainly their timing. Is he perfect? No. But he's got the best chance of ousting the Tories in a decade and needs to be given that chance. Cos all they're doing now is helping the Tories. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester_Loyal Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 Owen Jones is neither a journalist nor a commentator, he's an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 10 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: It's always been weird to me that people complained about MPs rejecting Corbyn when Corbyn had voted against his own party hundreds of times in his previous 30 years as an MP - what did people expect? You can't really expect to lead a party well when your views and principles have always been miles apart. Add to that his shocking judgment of character, events and allies - he was such an easy target for the Conservatives because he gave them so much material. My annoyance at these activists going after Starmer is mainly their timing. Is he perfect? No. But he's got the best chance of ousting the Tories in a decade and needs to be given that chance. Cos all they're doing now is helping the Tories. I think their timing is entirely deliberate here. They believe the Conservative party is now weak enough that any Labour candidate will win the next election, so now’s the time to get someone of their flavour back in charge. I still believe they would receive a horrifying shock if they succeeded. It would be the best news the Conservatives as a party could get. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox_up_north Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 (edited) Surely they understand that the PM is the head of a team and they can put others on it? Would they be complaining if he had Corbyn as health sec? Or do they just want an old school socialist ruler? Edited 26 July 2022 by fox_up_north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 9 minutes ago, Dunge said: I think their timing is entirely deliberate here. They believe the Conservative party is now weak enough that any Labour candidate will win the next election, so now’s the time to get someone of their flavour back in charge. I still believe they would receive a horrifying shock if they succeeded. It would be the best news the Conservatives as a party could get. Interesting and really depressing theory - they can't be that ****ing stupid could they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 25 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: Interesting and really depressing theory - they can't be that ****ing stupid could they? I’m pretty certain that they can and they are. They’ll be running game theory in an echo chamber, and if you do that then this is exactly what you come out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 5 hours ago, StanSP said: Of course she did. Thankfully records are kept of voting histories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said: It's always been weird to me that people complained about MPs rejecting Corbyn when Corbyn had voted against his own party hundreds of times in his previous 30 years as an MP - what did people expect? You can't really expect to lead a party well when your views and principles have always been miles apart. Add to that his shocking judgment of character, events and allies - he was such an easy target for the Conservatives because he gave them so much material. My annoyance at these activists going after Starmer is mainly their timing. Is he perfect? No. But he's got the best chance of ousting the Tories in a decade and needs to be given that chance. Cos all they're doing now is helping the Tories. Infairness to them, I think it is a merky line. The membership overwhelming voted for Corbyn and within a year he was facing a leadership election. They can be aggrieved that there wasn't some attempt to unite a bit behind him. Justified or not in terms of labour being political viable. The recent backlash seems to be from that report that seems to show the anti semitie part of the party was more on the "right" side of it and Corbyn coming out smelling of roses and with Starmer suspending Corbyn over those allegations, it's effectively fairgame. I do get your frustration though and I feel a bit for Starmer even though I'm not particularly a fan of him, he was effectively brought in to get rid of the radicals, now he's actually got a reasonable chance of being PM so I think there's certain moves he did earlier on which alienated the membership he probably wouldnt have if he foresaw how this Tory government would crumble 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaphamFox Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 38 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said: Infairness to them, I think it is a merky line. The membership overwhelming voted for Corbyn and within a year he was facing a leadership election. They can be aggrieved that there wasn't some attempt to unite a bit behind him. Justified or not in terms of labour being political viable. The recent backlash seems to be from that report that seems to show the anti semitie part of the party was more on the "right" side of it and Corbyn coming out smelling of roses and with Starmer suspending Corbyn over those allegations, it's effectively fairgame. I do get your frustration though and I feel a bit for Starmer even though I'm not particularly a fan of him, he was effectively brought in to get rid of the radicals, now he's actually got a reasonable chance of being PM so I think there's certain moves he did earlier on which alienated the membership he probably wouldnt have if he foresaw how this Tory government would crumble Left-wing parties seem to be more prone to bitter ideological splits than right-wing parties, which is why right-wing parties often fare better in elections. Even when the Tories are deeply unpopular, there’s always a chance Labour will be tearing itself apart over some issue or other. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 12 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said: Left-wing parties seem to be more prone to bitter ideological splits than right-wing parties, which is why right-wing parties often fare better in elections. Even when the Tories are deeply unpopular, there’s always a chance Labour will be tearing itself apart over some issue or other. Yeah there's definitely truth in that, I think it's gotten worse for Labour because New Labour laid the groundwork on what can make you electable, but is it neccessairly the socialist foundations the party was founded on, not really. I think when it comes to the Tory party, they're more likely to only have conflicts when it comes to social issues, whereas the vast majority would be able to agree on economical strategy, which is something I don't think the Labour party could boast either. It's almost a coalition within itself 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taupe Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 I remember a discussion with a friend (perhaps I should call him brother) pre Blair and New Labour. I thought any flavour of Labour was better than Tory, he thought Blair wasn't the real deal and wanted full flavour. I'm still not sure where I stand on that one now, but I certainly acknowledge that my position has shifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towelie Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 Assume no one has been following the latest debate - it has come off air after a crashing sound of what could be the presenter collapsing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oxlong Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 7 minutes ago, Towelie said: Assume no one has been following the latest debate - it has come off air after a crashing sound of what could be the presenter collapsing: I’d heard that a fly had landed on Rishi and knocked him over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 8 minutes ago, Towelie said: Assume no one has been following the latest debate - it has come off air after a crashing sound of what could be the presenter collapsing: Well if that's not emblematic of 12 years of Tory rule I don't know what is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collymore Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 The presenter Kate McCann fainted but is OK according to the BBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 26 July 2022 Share Posted 26 July 2022 8 minutes ago, Collymore said: The presenter Kate McCann fainted but is OK according to the BBC. Did Truss send her into a trance? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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