Dunge Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 8 minutes ago, Finnegan said: But this is exactly my point, you equate a picket line to - what - like, I don't know, XR fanatics gluing themselves to roads in rush hour or something? This is my point, to an extent, that's nonsense. It's mass media brainwashing. They're just expressing their right to industrial action. You can't on one hand praise Mick Lynch (because he's cool at the moment) and then on the other complain about picket linesn. Lynch has expressed quite clearly that he himself will be on the picket and has also raised an eyebrow at people begrudging him that by asking "what exactly do you think happens on a picket?" He's happy to challenge the mass media painting picket lines as some sort of crazy, unlawful, violent, fanatical protest. It isn't, its just workers taking industrial action. And Labour aren't in government, they're the opposition. They should be opposing. I have no problem with them literally opposing the government by lending their support to a well organised and democratic, legal picket. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm quite pro-Starmer and I was fairly openly anti-Corbyn/Momentum. I'm an idealist, sure, but I'm also a pragmatist and a realist. I understand that Labour need to court the middle ground and that pulling this country back left will be a slow and gradual process that begins with a marginal centre left, fiscally liberal government. But I don't think they need to entirely abandon their core beliefs in order to get elected. They should be challenging the government on the rail strikes and helping to combat the media bias, use the celebrity of Lynch to help push a counter message that they stand by working people and this Tory government has absolutely tanked the economy and that the only people benefitting are the wealthy corporations putting "gifts" in their pockets. I’m not saying that picket lines themselves are necessarily bad here either - as long as they’re reasonable and organised. What I’m saying is that I don’t think it does a government in waiting good to join it and be part of it when they should be presenting themselves as a government that can be dealt with. Yes, they can join the picket line, and yes, they’re the opposition, but if and when they are in government they won’t be in that position anymore, so showing that they can be a responsible party that can deal and negotiate properly with unions while also not being compromised in standing up to the more militant end of the trade union movements (which Lynch isn’t) is the best way for me to have confidence in them. We’re clearly not going to agree on this, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 1 hour ago, Fox in the North said: I think this works though. Perhaps it's the Americanization of our politics but I am sure a lot of people will think of a new PM as representing some kind of change. We're talking about a country where critical thinking is at an all time low Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 27 July 2022 Author Share Posted 27 July 2022 One thing about Lynch: his politics really aren’t that radical for a trade union leader. He says he’s a social democrat, say socialism is a pointless pursuit and economically he really isn’t asking for much. I’d say he’s comfortably to the right of Corbyn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 29 minutes ago, Dunge said: I’m not saying that picket lines themselves are necessarily bad here either - as long as they’re reasonable and organised. What I’m saying is that I don’t think it does a government in waiting good to join it and be part of it when they should be presenting themselves as a government that can be dealt with. Yes, they can join the picket line, and yes, they’re the opposition, but if and when they are in government they won’t be in that position anymore, so showing that they can be a responsible party that can deal and negotiate properly with unions while also not being compromised in standing up to the more militant end of the trade union movements (which Lynch isn’t) is the best way for me to have confidence in them. We’re clearly not going to agree on this, anyway. Your argument contradicts itself, how can they present themselves as a Government that can be trusted to do a deal with unless they are standing with the workers when they are in opposition? By doing nothing it makes them appear the same as the Tories. Joining the pickets or even just supporting the strikes will build trust and make strikes a lot less likely in the long run when the Unions can trust that Labour will sit down with them on fair terms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 27 July 2022 Author Share Posted 27 July 2022 Ed Miliband would be the perfect Labour leader in these times. History really did him over didn’t it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 3 minutes ago, Lionator said: Ed Miliband would be the perfect Labour leader in these times. History really did him over didn’t it? Unelectable I’m afraid …… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Finnegan Posted 27 July 2022 Popular Post Share Posted 27 July 2022 38 minutes ago, Dunge said: We’re clearly not going to agree on this, anyway. Well we aren't if you equate simple industrial action with being "the more militant end of" trade union movements and if you think Lynch won't do what needs to be done to take industrial action, it's literally his union that are shutting down the Nations transport systems as part of their collective bargaining. Striking is to trade politics what an effective armed forces is to foreign affairs. Nobody wants to use them, we'd all rather just negotiate and that includes the trade unions but ultimately if you want to be taken seriously in a hostile environment then you need to be able to flex your muscles. It's not activism or extremism, it's a legitimate tactic in collective bargaining. This idea that it's some archaic, quirky, weird behaviour that rabble rousing Commie trouble makers do is exactly the narrative Murdoch and Co want you to latch on to. But this old image of rioting miners fighting off Maggie's soldiers dressed as coppers and lobbing bricks at "scab" buses is the prevailing image of a picket line. The reality is a bunch of middle aged workers standing around outside their work place handing out leaflets to non Union workers asking them to not go in to work today and canvassing them to join the union. That's about it. A Labour MP turning up to that for a peaceful photo op really shouldn't be a big deal. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 27 July 2022 Author Share Posted 27 July 2022 1 minute ago, st albans fox said: Unelectable I’m afraid …… If only he’d chosen an egg cob instead of a bacon one. We’d still be in the EU, our pandemic death toll would be small and we’d have had no party leadership elections in 7 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 6 minutes ago, Lionator said: Ed Miliband would be the perfect Labour leader in these times. History really did him over didn’t it? History? Or Murdoch and friends' news media machine? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 27 July 2022 Author Share Posted 27 July 2022 Just now, Finnegan said: Well we aren't if you equate simple industrial action with being "the more militant end of" trade union movements and if you think Lynch won't do what needs to be done to take industrial action, it's literally his union that are shutting down the Nations transport systems as part of their collective bargaining. Striking is to trade politics what an effective armed forces is to foreign affairs. Nobody wants to use them, we'd all rather just negotiate and that includes the trade unions but ultimately if you want to be taken seriously in a hostile environment then you need to be able to flex your muscles. It's not activism or extremism, it's a legitimate tactic in collective bargaining. This idea that it's some archaic, quirky, weird behaviour that rabble rousing Commie trouble makers do is exactly the narrative Murdoch and Co want you to latch on to. But this old image of rioting miners fighting off Maggie's soldiers dressed as coppers and lobbing bricks at "scab" buses is the prevailing image of a picket line. The reality is a bunch of middle aged workers standing around outside their work place handing out leaflets to non Union workers asking them to not go in to work today and canvassing them to join the union. That's about it. A Labour MP turning up to that for a peaceful photo op really shouldn't be a big deal. The right wing rags keep calling Lynch ‘militant’ and I’m pretty sure the only thing militant about old mick are the truth bombs he keeps throwing onto journalists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 9 minutes ago, Lionator said: Ed Miliband would be the perfect Labour leader in these times. History really did him over didn’t it? I don't think he was ever suited to be leader though, his current role is probably the best place for him 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post urban.spaceman Posted 27 July 2022 Popular Post Share Posted 27 July 2022 1 hour ago, Finnegan said: Now, don't get me wrong, I'm quite pro-Starmer and I was fairly openly anti-Corbyn/Momentum. I'm an idealist, sure, but I'm also a pragmatist and a realist. I understand that Labour need to court the middle ground and that pulling this country back left will be a slow and gradual process that begins with a marginal centre left, fiscally liberal government. Someone needs to tattoo this to Owen Jones' ****ing forehead so that it starts drilling some sense into the anti-Starmer activists. Starmer needs to be pragmatic and appeal to as many people as possible. THEN you can start to drag the country left. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 Just now, urban.spaceman said: Someone needs to tattoo this to Owen Jones' ****ing forehead so that it starts drilling some sense into the anti-Starmer activists. Starmer needs to be pragmatic and appeal to as many people as possible. THEN you can start to drag the country left. Yeah but Jones has been seduced by his success and now is only interested in pandering to his fan base and telling them what they want to hear. He probably knows better he just doesn't want to broadcast that because it's not selling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 1 hour ago, st albans fox said: Unelectable I’m afraid …… Perhaps brother David would have been a better choice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaphamFox Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 7 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said: Perhaps brother David would have been a better choice He would have been an excellent choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 Couldn’t happen to a nicer club. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 Aren't the unions and workers doing what Sunak was banging on about with his parents the other night? That people work hard and want to better themselves and their lives. All about the status quo with the Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 1 minute ago, Corky said: All about the status quo with the Government. Better than Sweet Caroline tbf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 27 July 2022 Share Posted 27 July 2022 13 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Yeah but Jones has been seduced by his success and now is only interested in pandering to his fan base and telling them what they want to hear. He probably knows better he just doesn't want to broadcast that because it's not selling. You're being too generous IMO - he's just had to delete a tweet that told his followers to basically harass Starmer and film it, calling him a conman. He's a vile little clown sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 (edited) <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">July 27 (Reuters) - Dozens of former Republican and Democratic officials will announce on Wednesday a new national political third party to appeal to millions of voters they say are dismayed with what they see as America's dysfunctional two-party system.</p>— Idrees Ali (@idreesali114) <a href="https://twitter.com/idreesali114/status/1552438364317810688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> Edited 28 July 2022 by Smudge Sorry I'm just trying to quote a tweet but it isn't working please delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 12 hours ago, Daggers said: One minute they appear to be attacking each other, the next they're... They just practing..One of them is gonna win...you all better start lubing up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 7 hours ago, ClaphamFox said: He would have been an excellent choice. Wasn't he pretty unpopular in the PLP? Seen as rather lacking in substance if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazzer 7 Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 Oh, so the sacked left wing shadow transport minister is Rayners boyfriend, awkward. Will Starmer be able to keep the far left in line. Or is trouble brewing for labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oxlong Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 16 hours ago, Daggers said: One minute they appear to be attacking each other, the next they're... Apparently Rishi is entirely in proportion so this makes more a bit more sense now when Liz was informed of the schedule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 28 July 2022 Share Posted 28 July 2022 12 hours ago, Daggers said: Better than Sweet Caroline tbf Hurting just runs off their shoulders. In this instance the public is feeling the hurting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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