The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Sampson]

17 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

You cannot be serious surely? Are you  suggesting that optics is not a thing?? I am not disputing if it should be, it shouldn’t, but come on. If it were not then sh*t like reality shows would not be a thing.

The biggest frustration for me is that it's largely just meaningless rhetoric to say "lacks charisma" though. 

 

We're told we don't want a populist leader, yet we must have a leader with charisma. But charisma seems to basically be chanting populist slogans these days, so it's kind of a vicious cycle.

 

Corbyn had charisma and got destroyed for it, because it was the wrong kind of charisma.

 

We're told Boris has charisma and is constantly voted in because of it.

 

To most people it seems like the charismatic character they want is some populist, bumbling underdog character, which Boris completely plays up to. Yet Ed Milliband was equally destroyed for his bumbling, underdog character, so it makes no sense.

 

If Labour presented the equivalent of Boris, they'd get equally destroyed as they have when they presented Corbyn, Milliband or Starmer. The charisma thing has always just seemed to me a meaningless stick to beat the current Labour leader with, whoever they are. 

 

The Optics of it can be framed anyway the media like, regardless of who you actual are. Only Labour leader to get the media on side to say he had charisma was Blair and that was solely down to his personal relationships with certain media moguls.

Edited 7 May 2022 by Sampson

[Tommy Fresh]

15 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

You cannot be serious surely? Are you  suggesting that optics is not a thing?? I am not disputing if it should be, it shouldn’t, but come on. If it were not then sh*t like reality shows would not be a thing.

All about how hard the media push a narrative of someone, much like Milliband when he was no longer leader and stopped getting hounded for looking weird eating (like most of us probably do) and they stopped pushing the narrative he was an odd ball, it quickly became apparent he's actually quite a witty bloke.

[weller54]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Are there people who seriously still care about this kind of thing? I don't love Starmer honestly but the charisma of the next PM is so down the list of my worries at the moment.

I know!..

But yes lots of people do consider this aspect!...why do you think Bozo got in?

[Dahnsouff]

10 minutes ago, Sampson said:

The biggest frustration for me is that it's largely just meaningless rhetoric to say "lacks charisma" though. 

 

We're told we don't want a populist leader, yet we must have a leader with charisma. But charisma seems to basically be chanting populist slogans these days, so it's kind of a vicious cycle.

 

Corbyn had charisma and got destroyed for it, because it was the wrong kind of charisma.

 

We're told Boris has charisma and is constantly voted in because of it.

 

To most people it seems like the charismatic character they want is some populist, bumbling underdog character, which Boris completely plays up to. Yet Ed Milliband was equally destroyed for his bumbling, underdog character, so it makes no sense.

 

If Labour presented the equivalent of Boris, they'd get equally destroyed as they have when they presented Corbyn, Milliband or Starmer. The charisma thing has always just seemed to me a meaningless stick to beat the current Labour leader with, whoever they are. 

 

The Optics of it can be framed anyway the media like, regardless of who you actual are. Only Labour leader to get the media on side to say he had charisma was Blair and that was solely down to his personal relationships with certain media moguls.

Yes, Corbyn was terribly treated by the media but he was also terribly out of step with what the majority of the public were looking for.

 

Boris is a buffoon, but has ‘friends’ in the right places, and has served to ensure that I won’t (and do not last time) vote for the Conservatives

[Sampson]

5 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Yes, Corbyn was terribly treated by the media but he was also terribly out of step with what the majority of the public were looking for.

 

Boris is a buffoon, but has ‘friends’ in the right places, and has served to ensure that I won’t (and do not last time) vote for the Conservatives

Sure by my point it that's it's far more about having those "friends in the right places" who give you the optics of having charisma than it actually is about having charisma. Blair was so popular because he was the only Labour leader who did have those friends in the right places.

 

There's little difference between the bumbling underdog nature Boris plays off of and the bumbling underdog nature of Milliband. Yet one was held up as a charismatic man and the other as a bumbling loser. That is far more to do with those friends in the right places than their actual charisma levels.

 

I think Starmer is actually a good speaker and clearly a very intelligent man whenever I've actually seen him give speeches. I wouldn't say he genuinely lacks charisma anymore than Cameron or May or Johnson have done who never got that same stick beating them down.

Edited 7 May 2022 by Sampson

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Sure by my point it that's it's far more about having those "friends in the right places" who give you the optics of having charisma than it actually is about having charisma. Blair was so popular because he was the only Labour leader who did have those friends in the right places.

 

There's little difference between the bumbling underdog nature Boris plays off of and the bumbling underdog nature of Milliband. Yet one was held up as a charismatic man and the other as a bumbling loser. That is far more to do with those friends in the right places than their actual charisma levels.

Not quite sure of the details of why Boris got and continues to get away with it to be honest. He will be gone next election anyway.

[Eurofox]

[ozleicester]

Edited 7 May 2022 by ozleicester

[fuchsntf]

On 22/04/2022 at 20:08, Parafox said:

Probably so. But I'm concerned about the alternatives.

There is no party/party leader that I feel I can trust or support. And that's the sorry state of our political parties. They all seem self serving, will say what it takes to be "popular" and convincing. It's all very well producing manifestos that give hope and positivity, full of rhetoric that may turn out to be meaningless as the 5 years progress.

After Boris-gate I can't bring myself to be onside with him or Sunak or Truss (for different reasons). IMO No politician should be in/elected to Westminster after being on HIGNY. They often get tanked on there but people still seem to like them, not realising how socially dim and out of touch with the general population they actually are. 

Our "beloved" PM was, at different times, a guest then a host on HIGNFY. Showed himself then, to be a fool.

In turmoil..better Doors open..

Jesus you  have had Boris , & Now worried about alternatives..!! 

Hoi seems to be Wrapped Sealed & delivered to the despots You Modern politics...

Scared of  change at every hard corner to turn, so sit tight...shit Scared if someone says boo...

 

If the People Dont want to Force their opinions to come through, whats the use...

UK public , sat on their arses, while Boris took the pss out of his position,

and shat over the UK public...I

When you should of gone put on the street, you did your Spring gardening & went shopping...

Fk the Spirit of WWII arogance

this modern Society cant even fight to oust a liar,dishonest,cheat who allowed parties,

while telling the Country to Stay at home and protect society ,

while Not having Contact to the Friends & Family ....

Sorry UK but  from within it  has put itself to shame, and have no grounds now to whine & complain about their lot....

Not even oppo parties, or Union organisations, could organise Demonstrations to Force him out...

Wet-paper Democracy ruled by a Western despot..!!  Dont try & excuse this One out....

Whether Socialist or conservative, the non-Action is wrong..!!

Edited 8 May 2022 by fuchsntf

[Eurofox]

[Robo61]

7 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Beautiful to see the Tories take a battering. Serves them right for the mess they've caused over the past 12 years

Corrected that for you.

[Robo61]

5 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Yes, Corbyn was terribly treated by the media but he was also terribly out of step with what the majority of the public were looking for.

 

Boris is a buffoon, but has ‘friends’ in the right places, and has served to ensure that I won’t (and do not last time) vote for the Conservatives

That's just not true though,  many surveys before the last GE showed a clear majority in favour if Labour policies (without saying which part owned them).  They just didn't like the leader personally.  When the MSM don't like a particular leader then they lose it seems to me.  See Callaghan, Major, IDS, Brown, Milliland etc

[Dames]

With the leaked memo to the Mail and the constant lies and hypocrisies Starmer has to resign asap. He broke the rules and has made a massive show over the past 5 months about how much that matters.

 

Johnson and the Conservative front bench will be hoping he digs his heels in and tries to squirm his way out because it will get them through the next election. 
 

If he takes one for the team and resigns the pressure is straight back on the Conservatives because when the Prime Minister gets fined again they can’t turn around and say well the other guy is just as bad. 

[Parafox]

13 minutes ago, Dames said:

With the leaked memo to the Mail and the constant lies and hypocrisies Starmer has to resign asap. He broke the rules and has made a massive show over the past 5 months about how much that matters.

1) Have you got a link to this news?

2) Is this proven?

Edited 7 May 2022 by Parafox

[Dahnsouff]

22 minutes ago, Robo61 said:

That's just not true though,  many surveys before the last GE showed a clear majority in favour if Labour policies (without saying which part owned them).  They just didn't like the leader personally.  When the MSM don't like a particular leader then they lose it seems to me.  See Callaghan, Major, IDS, Brown, Milliland etc

Perhaps, but pre-election surveys on people willingness to adopt more social conscious policies is only going to encourage a disingenuous response. People will largely support such policies in theory, but once it is explained either truthfully, or as you suggest in a biased manner by ‘pet’ MSM, then people will vote largely to their personal or familial  benefit.

[Dames]

1 minute ago, Parafox said:

1) Have you got a link to this news?

2) Is this proven?

Its on the Mail website and all news outlets on Twitter are picking this up. It looks like a preplanned event which was against the rules at the time. 
 

I hate to say it but his position is untenable. 

[Parafox]

6 minutes ago, Dames said:

Its on the Mail website and all news outlets on Twitter are picking this up. It looks like a preplanned event which was against the rules at the time. 
 

I hate to say it but his position is untenable. 

As much as I am reluctant to look at anything the DM has to say, I will take a look.

[Dames]

2 minutes ago, Parafox said:

As much as I am reluctant to look at anything the DM has to say, I will take a look.

I hate that its come from them as well but he’s been caught out good and proper. 

[kenny]

1 minute ago, Dames said:

I hate that its come from them as well but he’s been caught out good and proper. 

Someone has supplied them with memo.

 

I'm going for Rayner.

 

 

[Parafox]

12 minutes ago, Dames said:

Its on the Mail website and all news outlets on Twitter are picking this up. It looks like a preplanned event which was against the rules at the time. 
 

I hate to say it but his position is untenable. 

 

4 minutes ago, Parafox said:

As much as I am reluctant to look at anything the DM has to say, I will take a look.

I've taken a look and it's very tenuous. I'm no fan of Starmer or the Labour Party but it's typical sensationalism by the DM, a notoriously Tory rag. 

[Dames]

Just now, Parafox said:

 

I've taken a look and it's very tenuous. I'm no fan of Starmer or the Labour Party but it's typical sensationalism by the DM, a notoriously Tory rag. 

Combined with the half truths he’s been telling and the way he’s slaughtered Johnson unfortunately its enough. The dinner and drinks part of that agenda has him bang to rights. 

 

3 minutes ago, kenny said:

Someone has supplied them with memo.

 

I'm going for Rayner.

 

 

Nah she’s involved with it. It’ll be a disgruntled Corbynite that just wants to see the world burn at this point. 

[Parafox]

Let's face it. All politicians, particularly those in high office, think they are above reproach, that they can do what they like and tell the rest of us what rules we have to follow whilst not applying those rules to themselves. It's a bit like your senior managers telling you that you can't have 2 days off for half term because your leave entitlement is full but then taking a week abroad and adjusting their own leave records to suit. (Based on personal experience).

As things may pan out, Starmer and BJ could both be liars and hypocrites and if so, neither are not fit to lead.

 

Edited 7 May 2022 by Parafox

[Facecloth]

Asking someone to arrange a takeaway to have on a break from working doesn't make it preplanned event, it means someone was prepared and thought it would be sensible to get food in whilst they worked 

 

But obviously if there is more to this and he did break rules, which I don't think he did, he should resign, and so should Johnson. In fact I'm starting to hope he did break the rules, as I think he would go if he did and it would put Johnson under pressure.

Edited 7 May 2022 by Facecloth

[Parafox]

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Asking someone to arrange a takeaway to have on a break from working doesn't make it preplanned event, if means someone was prepared and thought it would be sensible to get food in whilst they worked 

 

But obviously if there is more to this and he did break rules, which I don't think he did, he should resign, and so should Johnson. In fact I'm starting to hope he did break the rules, as I think he would go if he did and it would put Johnson under pressure.

According to the DM it was a "beer and curry gathering, which was planned in advance". Sounds pre-planned to me. Not saying the DM is not trying to make something out of very little but there's rarely smoke without fire.

Edited 7 May 2022 by Parafox

[Facecloth]

6 minutes ago, Parafox said:

According to the DM it was a "beer and curry gathering, which was planned in advance". Sounds pre-planned to me. Not saying the DM is not trying to make something out of very little but there's rarely smoke without fire.

That's their wording for it. If you read the article it just states there was memo asking to arrange a takeaway at the office. The revolution is that the memo also seems to say the visit ended after the meal, which would go against his claim they returned to work after.