The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, pmcla26 said:

I think there's good reason in recent years in this country for this type of thinking, though. 

 

COVID and Brexit have changed peoples views of "listen to these people representing you", because quite frankly Boris and co. failed miserably with handling both. People are beginning to trust their own judgement more than experts or leaders, which is sometimes a good thing, and at other times a terrible thing. 

Right.

 

And I might submit at the present time perhaps the judgement between the two is a little lacking and as a result some terrible things are beginning to happen (and are already happening).

 

For instance, there's no doubt that the UK government handled Covid incredibly poorly, but that's no excuse whatsoever to believe that a swift and decisive response against it wasn't necessary.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

You say "right" like you're disagreeing or perplexed by that statement? 

I agree a swift and decisive response was a necessary, but that wasn't really what happened. Wasn't it 2 weeks after the first cases in the UK that we went into lockdown? Plus, the borders not shutting was ridiculous. The whole response to COVID was driven by financial implications rather than protecting the public. 

Right in this case = I agree.

 

And yep, I agree with the second paragraph too. My issue is that sometimes such contrarian thought and poor judgement based on it then leads to situations where people think we don't have to do anything to fight a deadly pandemic because the "experts" are suggesting that it's a good idea.

[Facecloth]

15 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

I think there's good reason in recent years in this country for this type of thinking, though. 

 

COVID and Brexit have changed peoples views of "listen to these people representing you", because quite frankly Boris and co. failed miserably with handling both. People are beginning to trust their own judgement more than experts or leaders, which is sometimes a good thing, and at other times a terrible thing. 

The contrary way of thinking came pre brexit and pre covid though. The Internet hasn't helped, but people just seem to be against everything they are told. Nothing wrong with questioning things, but people seem to want to find the opposite side of the coin and declare that as proof with little evidence. It obviously depends on who tells them, because there are people out there who would believe Boris Johnson telling them the moon is actually a giant potato rather than an astronaut that's been there saying its not.

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

I think there's good reason in recent years in this country for this type of thinking, though. 

 

COVID and Brexit have changed peoples views of "listen to these people representing you", because quite frankly Boris and co. failed miserably with handling both. People are beginning to trust their own judgement more than experts or leaders, which is sometimes a good thing, and at other times a terrible thing. 

I think the problem is a lot of this "free" thinking is being influenced by others, non mainstream media outlets that clearly have an agenda. A mate of mine who I'm starting to get a little concerned about was always liking stuff by the Spectator and other established right leaning publications. Now he is starting to like stuff from very suss looking outlets. These free thinkers are rarely that they've just been seduced by someone else's agenda.

[Lionator]

Given Truss (next PM), Braverman (next home sec) and Badenoch (next Ed sec) all support the reintroduction of banning promotion on non-heterosexuality in schools and local authority (section28), how do people think a reintroduction of section 28 policy would go down in 2022? Would she even get it past her own MP’s? 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Given Truss (next PM), Braverman (next home sec) and Badenoch (next Ed sec) all support the reintroduction of banning promotion on non-heterosexuality in schools and local authority (section28), how do people think a reintroduction of section 28 policy would go down in 2022? Would she even get it past her own MP’s? 

One would hope not, but who knows?

[fox_up_north]

I'm friends with primary teachers and have worked in younger secondary education - there is a massive misconception about what sex and identity education is at those ages.

 

Typically, in primary, it's about respecting boundaries and being aware of who can touch you and who can't. They're trying to get children to think about safety so we can avoid abuse. 

 

After that, it's about families and different people having different families - which includes same sex but also mixed race backgrounds. 

 

From what I gather, the main driver is just getting kids to understand everybody is different. For every ill-conceived sex education play, there's a hundred teachers just trying to get kids to accept and be nice to each other. 

[taupe]

I think people are 'free thinking' (and I agree, I think they increasingly are) because trust is going. People feel lied to and manipulated, that decisions are taken that make it better for some but there's no discernable difference for them. I get that.

[taupe]

I don't think kids are taught about homosexuality so much as the subject is discussed, to make kids aware it's ok, to encourage an openness, and to discourage judgement and fear. I think this discussion is a vital part of an education and I'd oppose any moves to limit it or close it down.

[Benguin]

I think people are sheep and I find it super funny but also super troubling how both sides accuse the other side of this without seeing their own folly. 
 

To think at all you need a grounding in reality and an understanding of subjective and objective truth. A solid epistemology is incredibly counter cultural these days as we have been taught all our lives by tv, film, education and parenting that what we feel is true, is true. 
 

 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I think people are sheep and I find it super funny but also super troubling how both sides accuse the other side of this without seeing their own folly. 
 

To think at all you need a grounding in reality and an understanding of subjective and objective truth. A solid epistemology is incredibly counter cultural these days as we have been taught all our lives by tv, film, education and parenting that what we feel is true, is true. 
 

 

Absolutely.

 

However, with all due respect, I'm not sure where framing such things using an entity that has never been empirically proven to exist (empiricism being one of the top standards of defining what is true or not), and perhaps never will be, helps all that much either.

 

56 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

It doesn't exactly seem to be going down well with most parents I know at the moment. I'm not sure how it's benefitting kids, by teaching them about homosexuality and transsexuality - isn't that something that you discover for yourself when you're of a certain age? I personally don't feel very comfortable with it. 

I'm curious as to if the same stance is held on heterosexuality here, viz. something that you discover for yourself and isn't beneficial to be talked about in schools. In the interest of being even handed, of course.

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely.

 

However, with all due respect, I'm not sure where framing such things using an entity that has never been empirically proven to exist (empiricism being one of the top standards of defining what is true or not), and perhaps never will be, helps all that much either.

 

I'm curious as to if the same stance is held on heterosexuality here, viz. something that you discover for yourself and isn't beneficial to be talked about in schools. In the interest of being even handed, of course.

I’m not permitted to answer that question on here, happy to do so via PM though. 
 

The point stands though, the world as a whole, on both sides, generally deals in subjective truth - which is to say Lala land. 

[Captain...]

48 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

It doesn't exactly seem to be going down well with most parents I know at the moment. I'm not sure how it's benefitting kids, by teaching them about homosexuality and transsexuality - isn't that something that you discover for yourself when you're of a certain age? I personally don't feel very comfortable with it. 

Why do you feel uncomfortable about it? I assume you have no problem with all the hatred and violence that is taught in schools. Vikings, Pirates, Henry VIII killing wives etc. Why does teaching about love, diversity, inclusivity bother you?

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I’m not permitted to answer that question on here, happy to do so via PM though. 
 

The point stands though, the world as a whole, on both sides, generally deals in subjective truth - which is to say Lala land. 

Fair enough.

 

The point, when you drill down through the layers of epistemology, that things are mostly subjective in terms of perception, is a salient one. However, if we don't have a method like empiricism that may well be as close as we can get to defining what is true/ real and what isn't, then you get everyone arguing the toss and not actually getting much done, which isn't the best species survival strategy.

[taupe]

12 minutes ago, Benguin said:

The point stands though, the world as a whole, on both sides, generally deals in subjective truth - which is to say Lala land. 

I think that's both harsh and true. Subjective truth is pretty much all anyone has. We search for objectivity but can never really know if we achieve it. I believe in cutting (some) people (some) slack and try to get why they believe what they do. If I can get the why bit then my own world is the richer for it.

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough.

 

The point, when you drill down through the layers of epistemology, that things are mostly subjective in terms of perception, is a salient one. However, if we don't have a method like empiricism that may well be as close as we can get to defining what is true/ real and what isn't, then you get everyone arguing the toss and not actually getting much done, which isn't the best species survival strategy.

Exactly, hence the word folly. If we throw out the instructions for an ikea flat pack wardrobe, we might be able to construct it to a useable standard but we’ll definitely bodge it to some degree. 

[taupe]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

you get everyone arguing the toss and not actually getting much done

In honesty, I go around in circles on that one. There's a time and a place for discussion and yet there also needs to get things done. I think both are needed, the former enables that latter to be more effective (hopefully!) I've seen action log jammed by discussion/argument (I belong to a French cycling club!) and I've seen action in haste (most of mine in truth!) I don't know where the dividing line is. When do you know enough?

[taupe]

(sometimes I like posts because of their tone, or degree of reflection, rather than simply agreeing with what is said)

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

It doesn't exactly seem to be going down well with most parents I know at the moment. I'm not sure how it's benefitting kids, by teaching them about homosexuality and transsexuality - isn't that something that you discover for yourself when you're of a certain age? I personally don't feel very comfortable with it. 

Trans sexuality is not something which is taught in schools anyway. Even homosexuality stuff is about being accepting of others, rather than telling kids YOU ARE GAY. 

[Guest Kopfkino]

Bank of England’s update was super cheery today - why anyone would want to be PM rn is beyond me

[Fazzer 7]

We never did sex education when I was at school ,everyone seemed to get on just fine. Mind you we were a lot less messed up in those days.

[Rain King]

9 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

We never did sex education when I was at school ,everyone seemed to get on just fine. Mind you we were a lot less messed up in those days.

Your posts suggest otherwise.

[CosbehFox]

15 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Bank of England’s update was super cheery today - why anyone would want to be PM rn is beyond me

 

[EnderbyFox]

3 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

Say a load of positive words without actually any evidence/plan to back those words. 

 

#LevellingUp

[Dames]

21 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Bank of England’s update was super cheery today - why anyone would want to be PM rn is beyond me

There is a reason Boris is confident about a No.10 comeback. The forecast for the next 2 years does not look good.