The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Foxdiamond]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

For the record, being a Socialist doesn't make one sub human, lesser or invalid politically. Deliberately slagging it off without the faintest notion what it actually is is dangerous and ignorant. 

Yes, that tired old stick to beat any Labour politician that tries to advance any policy that redresses  the vast inequality in this country. 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

For the record, being a Socialist doesn't make one sub human, lesser or invalid politically. Deliberately slagging it off without the faintest notion what it actually is is dangerous and ignorant. 

 

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Yes, that tired old stick to beat any Labour politician that tries to advance any policy that redresses  the vast inequality in this country. 

And to add to this, applying solutions that might be deemed "socialist" to certain problems may well be the only way we avoid a very great deal of suffering, death and misery.

[Foxdiamond]

Johnson for some crazy reason was popular with lots of the public and therefore the Tories were happy for him the front man. I get the feeling they will try and keep Truss in the background as she is so hopeless as a communicator 

[kenny]

25 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

For the record, being a Socialist doesn't make one sub human, lesser or invalid politically. Deliberately slagging it off without the faintest notion what it actually is is dangerous and ignorant. 

Presumably the same notion could be applied to those that vote Conservative?

[HighPeakFox]

7 minutes ago, kenny said:

Presumably the same notion could be applied to those that vote Conservative?

That's a splendidly irrelevant piece of whataboutery. 

[kenny]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

That's a splendidly irrelevant piece of whataboutery. 

That's what I thought. Thanks.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, kenny said:

Presumably the same notion could be applied to those that vote Conservative?

I'm going to assume that this question was asked in good faith, so...

 

...yeah, of course, merely espousing political beliefs doesn't immediately make one the terms described above. However, it is a conservative government, as well as their voters, who are responsible for the current situation in the UK, having been the party of government for the last 12 years. 

 

And, speaking personally, pardon me for having a dim view of conservatives (not necessarily in the UK but elsewhere) when considering their viewpoints on various demographics (that do not include themselves obviously), science, and necessary progressive advancement, especially when they seem bound and determined to move those viewpoints into policy rather than merely retaining them as viewpoints.

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

4 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

What even now when the euro is at a 20 year low!

Pound heading for a 37 year low

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

For the record, being a Socialist doesn't make one sub human, lesser or invalid politically. Deliberately slagging it off without the faintest notion what it actually is is dangerous and ignorant. 

40 years of unfettered neo capitalism and still the ignorant roll out "socialist scare"

[kenny]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm going to assume that this question was asked in good faith, so...

 

...yeah, of course, merely espousing political beliefs doesn't immediately make one the terms described above. However, it is a conservative government, as well as their voters, who are responsible for the current situation in the UK, having been the party of government for the last 12 years. 

 

And, speaking personally, pardon me for having a dim view of conservatives (not necessarily in the UK but elsewhere) when considering their viewpoints on various demographics (that do not include themselves obviously), science, and necessary progressive advancement, especially when they seem bound and determined to move those viewpoints into policy rather than merely retaining them as viewpoints.

 

 

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

[Dames]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

40 years of unfettered neo capitalism and still the ignorant roll out "socialist scare"

Its decades of cold war propaganda that's too far gone to undo. Once people that lived through those times start dying off it'll be harder and harder to make a case against socialist policies to people that weren't raised to believe that 'reds' were hiding under their beds.

[Zear0]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

We're literally flushing our shi* into the sea. 

[What the Fuchs?]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

Presumably the same notion could be applied to those that vote Conservative?

Problem is the vast majority who vote Conservative and describe themselves as Conservatives would define conservatism about as inaccurately as they would define socialism. The Conservative Party are anything but conservative - in fact they've become frankly authoritarian over the past few years - and many of their voters don't necessarily identify with traditionally conservative principles. Instead they focus on whataboutery handed to them in the right wing media sphere (presumably because they can't give ordinary people a concrete reason why they are better off under a government which prioritises its donors and the wealthy), and they justify their voting habits based on who they're not voting for and why, instead of the opposite. Hence why on online comments pages you see things like 'can't define what a woman is...', and catchall terms like 'woke' and 'cancel culture', and vague and unsubstantiated things like 'got Brexit done' and 'he got all the big things right'. To paraphrase Nige, these guys should get their heads out the sand. The extent that people in this country have been manipulated by billionaire owned media really is frightening, to the extent where any politician or public figure who demonstrates even the slightest concern for the poor, or for refugees for instance can be 'smeared' as a socialist, or woke by people who know their audience don't know what these terms mean, and that these terms are not inherently bad.

 

Christ people use the word Marxist like its a swear word. Marx made a critique of capitalism, (that it was exploitative of workers), one that has proved to be valid - he didn't call for an overthrow of capitalism but stated that it was likely under extreme conditions. I just wish people were honest about the terms they used and stopped manipulating those who can't tell if they're being manipulated, or who's doing the manipulating as has unfortunately been the state of the British electorate for some time

Edited 6 September 2022 by What the Fuchs?
grammar

[Finnaldo]

3 minutes ago, kenny said:

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

This is exactly what happened in 2008 to Labour to be fair. 
 

Brexit is quite literally their own self-created issue, of course they’re gonna catch any flak for it. 
 

I appreciate the other two aren’t in their control but they should be judged on their response in the next two years.

 

[What the Fuchs?]

7 minutes ago, kenny said:

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

the use of bee killing pesticides springs to mind. dont know whats going on with that coal mine in Cumbria either

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

If this were a valid mitigation, then other leading OECD countries would be suffering as much as the UK right now. Is this the case?

 

5 minutes ago, kenny said:

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

I'd agree that UK conservatives and the US counterparts are different (thank goodness); indeed I made this point a little ways upstream. I might however suggest that the aforementioned scientific advancement often comes in spite rather than because of the UK establishment (not just conservative, that btw) and that the current UK environmental record, while not terrible by comparison to some places, isn't great (see the point above regarding sewage). More importantly, however, IMO conservatives are more likely to view international co-operation on such big things in a negative fashion, which has the potential to be of extreme consequence.

[kenny]

18 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

We're literally flushing our shi* into the sea. 

We have not upgraded enough of our combined sewers to deal with the differing rain patterns we now get.

 

This results in some effluent I think its 5-10% making its way into the sea. This practice occurs in all countries.

 

I'm sure you aren't interested but i'll explain anyway. The current National Planning Policy Framework increases its requirements on new developments each year and is enforced with the individual Water Authorities and the Planning Authorities. This requires that all new developments reduce the water flows into the sewage network by 40% from their current volumes. As such, each time a development is built, the flows to the sewers reduces slightly, unfortunately this is not sufficient when the current rain patterns are considered. If we had less victorian combined sewers (approximately 100,000km) then we would see less issues than we are seeing currently.

 

 

[Sampson]

27 minutes ago, kenny said:

The current situation in the UK is impossible to measure. Non Conservative voters will blame them for all issues. Conservative voters will point to the global crash, Brexit, the pandemic and the war in the Ukraine. Those 4 occurances are more than any government would expect to deal with in a 12 year period in power.

 

I can't comment on other countries too much, I think the UK Conservative party are different to their counterparts in the USA. Thankfully we have a good record on scientific advancement in the UK. I also think we are doing good work on improving environmental standards here, though I know you disagree with this point.

Huh? The Tories held a referendum on an issue most of the country didn’t even talk about because of an internal split (I barely remember the EU referendum mentioned in the 2015 election) within their own party. The Tories then decided the form of Brexit meant taking us out of the customs and trade agreements as a party with no outside party help. They then negotiated the treaty with the EU as a party with no outside party help. The party since has consistently then ran on elections of “we got Brexit done” and took sole responsibility for it as a party

 

I think any Conservative voter trying to point out Brexit as an issue they aren’t to blame for is living in the absurd. It’s literally an issue they created, negotiated, and took responsibility for solely as a party themselves

Edited 6 September 2022 by Sampson

[kenny]

19 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

This is exactly what happened in 2008 to Labour to be fair. 
 

Brexit is quite literally their own self-created issue, of course they’re gonna catch any flak for it. 
 

I appreciate the other two aren’t in their control but they should be judged on their response in the next two years.

 

Whatever happens in the next 2 years, Labour will be in power next I suspect.

 

Brexit is a complicated issue and the one that is laid on Cameron is that he had a referendum. Macron has said he wouldn't let the French people decide as they would probably vote to leave too. 

[StanSP]

Jeez

 

He's actually brought it up in a committee meeting. Joe Lycett must be loving this. This MP just gives it more attention. Clearly just batting for Kuenssberg and sad her first show got embarrassed

 

 

 

[kenny]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

Huh? The Tories held a referendum on an issue most of the country didn’t even talk about because of an internal split (I barely remember the EU referendum mentioned in the 2015 election) within their own party. The Tories then decided the form of Brexit meant taking us out of the customs and trade agreements as a party with no outside party help. They then negotiated the treaty with the EU as a party with no outside party help. The party since has consistently then ran on elections of “we got Brexit done” and took sole responsibility for it as a party

 

I think any Conservative voter trying to point out Brexit as an issue they aren’t to blame for is living in the absurd. It’s literally an issue they created, negotiated, and took responsibility for solely as a party themselves

I hope you aren't referring to me in that?

 

How Brexit has been handled since the referendum is down to the current government. Anyone that expected no disruption from a 40 year union is naïve at best.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

We have not upgraded enough of our combined sewers to deal with the differing rain patterns we now get.

 

This results in some effluent I think its 5-10% making its way into the sea. This practice occurs in all countries.

 

I'm sure you aren't interested but i'll explain anyway. The current National Planning Policy Framework increases its requirements on new developments each year and is enforced with the individual Water Authorities and the Planning Authorities. This requires that all new developments reduce the water flows into the sewage network by 40% from their current volumes. As such, each time a development is built, the flows to the sewers reduces slightly, unfortunately this is not sufficient when the current rain patterns are considered. If we had less victorian combined sewers (approximately 100,000km) then we would see less issues than we are seeing currently.

 

 

For which the current government have had decades of warning of, time to plan for and therefore responsibility over.

[kenny]

Just now, leicsmac said:

For which the current government have had decades of warning of, time to plan for and therefore responsibility over.

As I said, the legislation is there for new developments and it becomes more onerous all the time.

 

Its very easy to take a simplistic view and say we should have replaced 100,000km of highway drains, much more difficult to do in practice.

[Sampson]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

I hope you aren't referring to me in that?

 

How Brexit has been handled since the referendum is down to the current government. Anyone that expected no disruption from a 40 year union is naïve at best.

I’m not, I was referring to the part I bolded in your quote where you said The Tories could point to Brexit along with the worldwide crash and the war in Ukraine as reasons for their problems, but Brexit is a problem they literally created solely by themselves

[kenny]

2 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I’m not, I was referring to the part I bolded in your quote where you said The Tories could point to Brexit along with the worldwide crash and the war in Ukraine as reasons for their problems, but Brexit is a problem they literally created solely by themselves

The vote on Brexit was coming whoever was in charge.