The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Well said. 
 

I’ve worked my backside off. From school, to university. I got a highly demanding job straight from university. I missed many years of children growing up. I didn’t come from a privileged family - I worked myself up. 
 

I then chose to start a business which now employs people - made sacrifices to my lifestyle to get that business going. 
 

I contribute to society - I give heavily to charity both in terms of time and donations. My cars are paid for, my house is not heavily mortgaged. Without turning this into a motivational post, this is attainable by anyone with sacrifice. I’m proof of that.  
 

Its madness that success should be punished - we are not all Tory boys who have had it handed to us. 

What, even those that don't have the intellectual or mental wherewithal to become successful in business? 

Sure, there are builders who started out as "thicky brickies" and now have their own successful building firm. But there are plenty of people who simply cannot even aspire to that never mind be successful.

That bolded statement is far too sweeping.

[Mickyblueeyes]

21 minutes ago, taupe said:

Quite simply because you have the means to pay it.  It's not like you can take money off people with nothing to spare. Think of tax as a social responsibility rather than a punishment.

 

I get that but surely part of the decision on that social responsibility is for the individual to make ? That’s the point I’m making. 

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Just throwing more and more money at the NHS is futile it won’t work. It needs proper reform but that will never happen. 

The NHS will never get the kind of funding needed to make it financially "stable". Every advance in medicine, surgery and tech extends lives and cost fortunes and most modern, 1st world health care wants to have the best available.

It's almost like the NHS is a victim of its own "success".

[Dahnsouff]

38 minutes ago, Parafox said:

What, even those that don't have the intellectual or mental wherewithal to become successful in business? 

Sure, there are builders who started out as "thicky brickies" and now have their own successful building firm. But there are plenty of people who simply cannot even aspire to that never mind be successful.

That bolded statement is far too sweeping.

Not clear what you are advocating here?  The statement you were responding to seemed to be championing effort and self sacrifice, but you are railing against this? Bricky or CEO, the route to success remains effort surely?

[Parafox]

15 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Not clear what you are advocating here?  The statement you were responding to seemed to be championing effort and self sacrifice, but you are railing against this? Bricky or CEO, the route to success remains effort surely?

I agree with your last sentence and I don't begrudge anyone making a success in life but the post I was referring to suggested that "anyone can make it with application and sacrifice" (to paraphrase). What I was getting at is the not everyone has the mental or otherwise, wherewithal to become successful.

As someone posted earlier, thousands of people apply themselves, sacrifice family life, work 12-16 hour days and give max effort but are still on £15 an hour or whatever. Wealth is not achievable by all who work hard. Hard work is hard work, how you get rewarded and become "wealthy" depends on many factors.

Edited 25 September 2022 by Parafox

[Dahnsouff]

5 minutes ago, Parafox said:

I agree with your last sentence and I don't begrudge anyone making a success in life but the post I was referring to suggested that "anyone can make it with application and drive" (to paraphrase). What I was getting at is the not everyone has the mental or otherwise, wherewithal to become successful. As someone posted earlier, thousands of people apply themselves, work 12-16 hour days and give max effort but are still on £15 an hour or whatever. Wealth is not achievable by all who work hard. Hard work is hard work, how you get rewarded or how you achieve success is mutually exclusive.

Ok, this is true, but what is the answer? This is a restriction inflicted on people not by any means political, biological or via familial means, at least not any I can see outside of the obvious outliers of royalty or being left such wealth, and these are not the outliers under discussion here I think. I have worked PAYE all my life and never wanted to be the CEO, the boss, as I am happy with my life, family, and my choices of required occasional prudence and frugality. Should I be expect and be given more? Be gifted things I have not desired or have not called for?

[Thefox81]

48 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Ok, this is true, but what is the answer? This is a restriction inflicted on people not by any means political, biological or via familial means, at least not any I can see outside of the obvious outliers of royalty or being left such wealth, and these are not the outliers under discussion here I think. I have worked PAYE all my life and never wanted to be the CEO, the boss, as I am happy with my life, family, and my choices of required occasional prudence and frugality. Should I be expect and be given more? Be gifted things I have not desired or have not called for?

I can relate to your statement 100%. About 5 years ago i was headhunted to be head patisserie chef at a big london hotel. About quadruple the salary i was on at the time. Due to the long hours, unable to commute and a young family i turned it down. Would i be richer? Yes. Do i regret it? Not a chance.

[st albans fox]

Sterling continues to fall, down 0.75% as markets reopen in the Far East and Australasia (1-0770) 

 

the lowest ever rate is 1-0540 in 1985 when us interest rates were raised to 20% to combat rampant inflation 

 

if elements of the markets have decided to take on the pound, will the Bank of England be forced to intervene ? 

 

kwarteng could be facing a crisis within a day or so of his ‘mini budget’.  Sterling falling this far will force inflation well above what the treasury will have expected. 

 

 

 

 

[Izzy]

Just landed a decent sized bit of business with a US tech company that should keep me busy until Xmas.

 

And they pay in €USD, so, every cloud.........

[Fazzer 7]

56 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Sterling continues to fall, down 0.75% as markets reopen in the Far East and Australasia (1-0770) 

 

the lowest ever rate is 1-0540 in 1985 when us interest rates were raised to 20% to combat rampant inflation 

 

if elements of the markets have decided to take on the pound, will the Bank of England be forced to intervene ? 

 

kwarteng could be facing a crisis within a day or so of his ‘mini budget’.  Sterling falling this far will force inflation well above what the treasury will have expected. 

 

 

 

 

We had Black Friday now Black Monday awaits 😭

[Leicester_Loyal]

7 hours ago, Sampson said:

There’s plenty of people who worked their arse off, studied, got a masters or phd, sacrificed seeing their kids growing up, working 12hr days, worked their way up for a few years, only to find their careers become obsolete, replaced by machines, got a long term illness that made it too difficult to work, or a family member got a long term  illness and they had to give up their job or most often, their career was just no longer in demand anymore.

 

It still takes a hell of amount of luck and being in the right place at the right time to work from nothing to reaching that 45% tax bracket. I’m glad people manage it and would never hold hard-earned success against a person, but It is really not true to say it’s doable for everyone. There’s plenty who had all the motivation or hard work but got in the wrong career at the wrong time or much more important things than their career took over their life.

100%. 
 

If I hadn’t been successful in getting the apprenticeship I got, I doubt I’d be earning anywhere near the amount I earn currently. 
 

Regarding the tax bands, I just hit the 40%, but by doing loads of extra hours and OT. I also pay 9% over a certain amount earned for my university fees. If the 40% band was raised higher, I just wouldn’t bother doing the overtime, I’d end up working about 12 hours to take home 5 hours pay, rather have the day off. Although I imagine this is a rare case, usually it’s effecting those who are on higher basics and doing their normal hours, just thought I’d share a different prospective. 

[leicsmac]

11 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

I can live with the imagined ratios for the statement 

I'm not sure I can.

 

We've talked about this before and you're smart; you can see the way the world is heading because of such self-interest.

 

8 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

This seems a closed viewpoint, material wealth contains an inherently negative overtone, yet such wealth can be used for good on a charitable, personal or societal level

Certainly it can be, I was referring to such wealth that is then just hoarded or used purely for the self.

 

6 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I get that but surely part of the decision on that social responsibility is for the individual to make ? That’s the point I’m making. 

In an ideal world where people were driven by altruism enough to keep society running close to optimally in that way, I'd agree.

 

Unfortunately, we're not there yet and so such regulations on social responsibility have to exist.

[WigstonWanderer]

27 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

100%. 
 

If I hadn’t been successful in getting the apprenticeship I got, I doubt I’d be earning anywhere near the amount I earn currently. 
 

Regarding the tax bands, I just hit the 40%, but by doing loads of extra hours and OT. I also pay 9% over a certain amount earned for my university fees. If the 40% band was raised higher, I just wouldn’t bother doing the overtime, I’d end up working about 12 hours to take home 5 hours pay, rather have the day off. Although I imagine this is a rare case, usually it’s effecting those who are on higher basics and doing their normal hours, just thought I’d share a different prospective. 

It’s one thing to raise tax thresholds to keep middle earners like yourself out of the higher tax brackets. It’s quite another to make an open ended giveaway to the super rich by completely abolishing the top bracket.

 

Quite ridiculous IMO that the tax rate doubles at just under 38k to 40% from 20%. What’s wrong with a 30% range starting at 38k and going up to about 50k? Perhaps pay for it by a 50% rate on above 300k or so. Better still, some sort of wealth tax on the super rich, say those with a net wealth of over 100m.

 

Also National Insurance needs sorting out. Not sure if it’s changed, but it used to be effectively a tax on lower and middle earners, phasing out for higher earners. Surely better to align it to the tax thresholds and make it open ended?

Edited 26 September 2022 by WigstonWanderer

[ozleicester]

[WigstonWanderer]

Lunatics now firmly in charge of the asylum. Pound at all time lows against the USD

[st albans fox]

5 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

It’s one thing to raise tax thresholds to keep middle earners like yourself out of the higher tax brackets. It’s quite another to make an open ended giveaway to the super rich by completely abolishing the top bracket.

 

Quite ridiculous IMO that the tax rate doubles at just under 38k to 40% from 20%. What’s wrong with a 30% range starting at 38k and going up to about 50k? Perhaps pay for it by a 50% rate on above 300k or so. Better still, some sort of wealth tax on the super rich, say those with a net wealth of over 100m.

 

Also National Insurance needs sorting out. Not sure if it’s changed, but it used to be effectively a tax on lower and middle earners, phasing out for higher earners. Surely better to align it to the tax thresholds and make it open ended?

a more sensible approach to tax is long overdue 

 

that top bracket re appeared at the end of brown’s govt as a response to the banking crisis. Thatcher had abolished it. So we’d gone a good 25 odd years without it.  I would still like to know how much that additional 5% actually raises against an adjustment on thresh-holds

 

i wonder if that 5% removal is more of a political OG than economic …..

 

 

[fox_up_north]

That chart looks about right. I really wouldn't be surprise if the anti-work/ Quiet Quitting movement massively takes off in the next decade or so for the generation below me.

 

I'm a middle millennial, so I remember pre-internet and the dream of the 21st century. The Gen Z lot has basically seen 9/11, war on terrorism, global financial crash, Brexit, covid and now the current situation. 

 

If I saw all that, why bother working hard for someone? 

 

Edited 26 September 2022 by fox_up_north

[Zear0]

Chief Secretary to the Treasury absolutely nailed it a few days ago. 

 

[st albans fox]

Sterling is also now below €1-10. If the ecb decide to get tough on inflation (which they must do at some point), we are surely going to see parity on it. 

[Fazzer 7]

 

https://news.sky.com/story/italys-democratic-party-concedes-defeat-after-exit-poll-puts-far-right-politician-giorgia-meloni-on-course-to-win-12705507

[Dahnsouff]

Such is this grave new world  

[Innovindil]

42 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

That chart looks about right. I really wouldn't be surprise if the anti-work/ Quiet Quitting movement massively takes off in the next decade or so for the generation below me.

 

I'm a middle millennial, so I remember pre-internet and the dream of the 21st century. The Gen Z lot has basically seen 9/11, war on terrorism, global financial crash, Brexit, covid and now the current situation. 

 

If I saw all that, why bother working hard for someone? 

 

Ain't this the truth. 

 

Keep getting told "once in a lifetime" and this is like the 3rd time everything's gone to shit in my 33 years of living. 

[st albans fox]

the sheer madness of Fridays announcements on tax rates is laid bare by the fact that the income tax changes won’t come into effect until the next financial year commencing April 2023

the immediate inflationary currency issue will affect us all from now and if the B of E have to raise interest rates even faster than they intended then these come into play immediately too. 
 

there was simply no need to do this six months in advance when you don’t know what’s going to happen globally. You could have announced your intention as an administration to reduce income tax rates aggressively without spooking the markets. 
stamp duty and NI changes are immediate and benefits flow from October. 
 

The whole thing was ‘look at us - we’re immersed in even more dogma that the last lot’ 

that ego trip will cost us all a lot of money …..

[leicsmac]

What a mess.

[Dahnsouff]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

Certainly it can be, I was referring to such wealth that is then just hoarded or used purely for the self.

 

Get a policy that limits such behaviours whilst condoning others and we will be on a good footing!