The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[fox_up_north]

Christ, I hadn't actually heard her but she really wasn't prepared. Sounds completely lost. 

[CosbehFox]

woeth a read this thread, whoever is advising her is equally as thick. Local radio presenters are not held back as much as national broadcasters. At the same time the audience is your core voters 

[Daggers]

24 minutes ago, Fox in the North said:

 

There’re no words to describe the sheer ineptitude this woman scales. You know what her supporters praise about her? She’s a “details person”, they say. She really drills down to the core of the matter and implements detailed plans.

 

Load of fûcking bôllôcks.

[Voll Blau]

Good bloody nose for the snobby divs in the national media who assume all local journalists are Partridge clones.

[gerblod]

1 hour ago, Dahnsouff said:

Not saying you are wrong, but you are going into the land of hyperbole and point scoring here. The situation is somewhat different now what with covid, fuel crisis' and war in Ukraine

 

As pointed out yesterday, the Labour party or any party would have pushed through the same cuts and spending - the way it was delivered, especially without an OBR report was totally shocking though

 

Not justifying the Tories, they are done, but we should keep the blame game in the realm of the factual

For those of us having lived long enough to recall the comparative stability of a country intent on recovering from the 2ndWW, the rot set in with Thatcher - an anti-working class iconoclast intent on disrupting a country by forcing an extreme ideology on its majority. The ideology was typically Tory - that the British were lazy, unresourceful Epsilons who needed to be dragooned into action. She even said that there was "no such thing as society". Up until then there was such an animal as a benevolent Tory. She sold off the country's assets in an 'everything must go' car boot sale.

Since then moderation and Conservatism have become strangers.

I believe greed was made allowable and acceptable at that point - unless you were a PAYE manual worker. 

The Tory party has now somehow transmuted itself into some terrifying Frankenstinian monster - thrashing about intent on destroying the social progress, long-term peace and economic stability belonging to the EU had given us.

Corbyn and his clique knew that drastic measures were necessary to impose a balance on the country. Austerity had failed - because it limits the 'natural' flow of money within the economy. Privatised essential services were merely a profit tap for their executives and shareholders. Bankers were still being allowed to bend the rules - HSBC were involved in money laundering for drug dealers before being outed. But banks aren't allowed to fail.

However, the left is easy to demonize. I suspect though that a Corbyn government would have been a model of restraint compared to the Johnson gang. 

Covid and the Ukraine war/fuel crisis (interlinked) are exceptional circumstances indeed. But Johnson was absolutely the wrong person to have as leader - for any purpose. And any real leader would have acted to create a 'taskforce' to respond to the various issues arising from the 'fuel crisis'. We had a far worse situation in the early seventies when rationing was introduced when the Saudis decided to put their oil prices up.

I think the time is right for a cross party government. That would mean Truss and Co. admitting they aren't capable of governing. Two years is a long time to have this inept bunch inflicted on us. I suspect the finance sector may pressure them out of office. Sadly, it appears that the children have taken over the kindergarten, barred the doors and are busy vandalising it.

 

Edited 29 September 2022 by gerblod
Unclear context

[urban.spaceman]

10 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Good bloody nose for the snobby divs in the national media who assume all local journalists are Partridge clones.

Aha

[ealingfox]

15 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Good bloody nose for the snobby divs in the national media who assume all local journalists are Partridge clones.

 

Some of them are tbf

[Tinman]

Liz Truss has spoken today to Ukraine's president about the ongoing crisis Zelensky promised to provide all the assistance he could

[Sampson]

Another part of the interview 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, gerblod said:

For those of us having lived long enough to recall the comparative stability of a country intent on recovering from the 2ndWW, the rot set in with Thatcher - an anti-working class iconoclast intent on disrupting a country by forcing an extreme ideology on its majority. The ideology was typically Tory - that the British were lazy, unresourceful Epsilons who needed to be dragooned into action. She even said that there was "no such thing as society". Up until then there was such an animal as a benevolent Tory. She sold off the country's assets in an 'everything must go' car boot sale.

Since then moderation and Conservatism have become strangers.

I believe greed was made allowable and acceptable at that point - unless you were a PAYE manual worker. 

The Tory party has somehow transmuted itself into some terrifying Frankenstinian monster - thrashing about intent on destroying the social progress, long-term peace and economic stability belonging to the EU had given us.

Corbyn and his clique knew that drastic measures were necessary to impose a balance on the country. Austerity had failed - because it limits the 'natural' flow of money within the economy. Privatised essential services were merely a profit tap for their executives and shareholders. Bankers were still being allowed to bend the rules - HSBC were involved in money laundering for drug dealers before being outed. But banks aren't allowed to fail.

However, the left is easy to demonize. I suspect though that a Corbyn government would have been a model of restraint compared to the Johnson gang. 

Covid and the Ukraine war/fuel crisis (interlinked) are exceptional circumstances indeed. But Johnson was absolutely the wrong person to have as leader - for any purpose. And any real leader would have acted to create a 'taskforce' to respond to the various issues arising from the 'fuel crisis'. We had a far worse situation in the early seventies when rationing was introduced when the Saudis decided to put their oil prices up.

I think the time is right for a cross party government. That would mean Truss and Co. admitting they aren't capable of governing. Two years is a long time to have this inept bunch inflicted on us. I suspect the finance sector may pressure them out of office. Sadly, it appears that the children have taken over the kindergarten, barred the doors and are busy vandalising it.

 

Yes, but like or hate what Thatcher did, it did energise the economy of the country, whether or not that was at the cost of (hate this term) "the working man" is another question. My dislike for Labour came from the strength of the unions, the imnpact it had on my father as a young boy, the point at which the unions were not required to be so militant unlike in my grandfathers time.

 

Anyway, harking back to far is unproductive and self gratifying at best, as the times now are a million miles from Thatchers era, a long way even from the Blair years, the adaption to these times requires unforseen activity - just not what these Tories are doing and I agree some form of cross party governance would help.

 

 

Finally, the bold bit, she was right, to pretend otherwise misconstrues its intent in my mind. The amount of self regard seen in the population demonstrate this, you could argue the policies of Tories at this point exacerbated this, but the global increases in wealth amongst western nations was always going to lead in this direction due to the materialistic selfish nature of people. People mblame greed and capitalism for this but fratenise willful with the true devil of the media, those who drive this rhetoric of "its right to want", this isn`t governments doing this, its the media with their own agendas,  which we consume without thought nor serious criticism.

 

Anyway  

[RoboFox]

Christ, it's even worse than they said isn't it? I thought it was just hyperbole. I genuinely gave her the benefit of the doubt assuming someone who gets to that position at least has to be partly competent. 

 

Anyone with any nous is long gone, Johnson made sure of that. Joe Lycett was right, we really have been left with the dregs of a broken and corrupt Tory party which lets be honest, had little credibility in the first place.

 

How has it been allowed to get this bad? 

[LVFox]

2 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Christ, it's even worse than they said isn't it? I thought it was just hyperbole. I genuinely gave her the benefit of the doubt assuming someone who gets to that position at least has to be partly competent. 

 

Anyone with any nous is long gone, Johnson made sure of that. Joe Lycett was right, we really have been left with the dregs of a broken and corrupt Tory party which lets be honest, had little credibility in the first place.

 

How has it been allowed to get this bad? 

Listened to an excellent podcast with David Gauke this morning (Matt Forde’s if anyone’s interested).

 

Makes a really good point that the conservatives have moved further right to keep Farage quiet, and a loss in the general election would only push them even further that way.

 

For me, a move to PR is desperately needed. Would allow both Labour and Conservative parties to split into their two parts and future governments to always be close to the centre with a lean to left or right based on the mood of the nation.

 

However, any decent Labour majority and I cannot see Starmer sticking to the thought of going down that route just yet.

[Voll Blau]

9 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Christ, it's even worse than they said isn't it? I thought it was just hyperbole. I genuinely gave her the benefit of the doubt assuming someone who gets to that position at least has to be partly competent. 

 

Anyone with any nous is long gone, Johnson made sure of that. Joe Lycett was right, we really have been left with the dregs of a broken and corrupt Tory party which lets be honest, had little credibility in the first place.

 

How has it been allowed to get this bad? 

Enough people wanted it.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

Enough people wanted it.

It's disappointing to see people (including some of the opposition) blaming this so much on capitalism, or inevitable British decline, or structural problems in the UK. The UK has a lot of advantages compared to other countries but enough of the electorate have voted for absolutely disastrous policies in the last decade. These can be reversed or at least improved upon.

 

Having said that nobody voted for Truss and Kwarteng. 

[Sampson]

7 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Enough people wanted it.

Last election was largely a Brexit single-issue election though, let’s be honest. People weren’t really voting ideologically. Boris got in because he essentially said “I know you’re sick of us discussing an issue which is seismic and complex and realistically needs to be discussed over years and our economy should gradually be weened off the eu over years if not decades, but we’ll fudge it through in the next 6 months and rip the plaster off so you don’t have to hear about it anymore. Then we can all worry about the consequences later”.

Edited 29 September 2022 by Sampson

[Dahnsouff]

Politics itself needs a deep breath, the message proposed by Labour is far more fitting to these times presently (imo) but the fact that this is troubling (too me) suggests there exists a level of partisanship within politics that prevents consideration of party alternatives without some degree of anxiety.

 

Has anyone more of the left on here considered selecting a more right leaning party based on a manifesto promises?

Same question to those of a more right leaning, have you considered the parties regarded to be more left based on manifesto promises?

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

Last election was largely a Brexit single-issue election though, let’s be honest. People weren’t really voting ideologically. Boris got in because he essentially said “I know you’re sick of us discussing an issue which is seismic and needs to be discussed over years, so we’ll fudge it through so you don’t have to hear about it more. Then we can all worry about the consequences later”.

Its very true, yet still people voted for it (unknowable change) - that one is solely on this electorate responding to an unqualitifed Yes/no question.

 

That one blew my mind, felt more like a thought expirement

[urban.spaceman]

 

[BenTheFox]

On 27/09/2022 at 17:43, bovril said:

I feel like there's been a bit if a shift in recent days as people become tired of having a government that actively makes their lives worse. All the boring culture war stuff of the last decade seems to be falling away.

They're still giving it a good old go...

 

I always try to see things from another point of view, but I could NEVER put myself in the position of being upset about a statue of a slave trader being pulled down. 

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

There’re no words to describe the sheer ineptitude this woman scales. You know what her supporters praise about her? She’s a “details person”, they say. She really drills down to the core of the matter and implements detailed plans.

 

Load of fûcking bôllôcks.

I heard her described as thick as mince.  Seems about right.

[Dunge]

23 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Christ, it's even worse than they said isn't it? I thought it was just hyperbole. I genuinely gave her the benefit of the doubt assuming someone who gets to that position at least has to be partly competent. 

 

Anyone with any nous is long gone, Johnson made sure of that. Joe Lycett was right, we really have been left with the dregs of a broken and corrupt Tory party which lets be honest, had little credibility in the first place.

 

How has it been allowed to get this bad? 

The biggest surprise to me is that the membership allowed it.

 

I’ve always seen myself as more aligned to the Conservative party because they were the party of pragmatism over ideology. It isn’t just the MPs right now that are the problem for the Conservative Party - it’s that the membership actively went and voted for Truss when it was obvious how bad she was. I mean, there isn’t a single reason why she should be in the job. Boris may be a dirty word these days, but he has undeniable charisma. Truss is a big vat of nothing and incompetent with it. It was blatantly obvious to any pragmatist that the only legitimate candidate in the recent ballot - despite his faults - was Rishi Sunak. But the membership voted Useless Truss. I don’t know why, although I’m sure many would speculate, particularly about racism. Maybe also about Sunak being a traitor to Johnson, or being a spoilt rich boy with dodgy taxes, or because he wasn’t talking enough about culture wars. Maybe a combination thereof. But they certainly weren’t voting on the basis of either competence or economic pragmatism.

[Daggers]

Finally, a statement from the Government.

 

 

[Daggers]

11 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I heard her described as thick as mince.  Seems about right.

By Tory MPs, no less.

 

But that’s why she won, she was supported by those who wanted a puppet - and this is the result. My hope is the next government, which ever side they represent, does something to surgically remove the influence of shadow libertarian think tanks from the political process. They are a cancer.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Daggers said:

By Tory MPs, no less.

 

But that’s why she won, she was supported by those who wanted a puppet - and this is the result. My hope is the next government, which ever side they represent, does something to surgically remove the influence of shadow libertarian think tanks from the political process. They are a cancer.

They are like consultants who have never actually implemented anything.  Should be at most part of a discussion, never the decision makers.

I suspect Truss and Kwarteng think they have ridden it out now.  It will be interesting to see what happens next.

[Daggers]

13 minutes ago, Dunge said:

The biggest surprise to me is that the membership allowed it.

 

I’ve always seen myself as more aligned to the Conservative party because they were the party of pragmatism over ideology. It isn’t just the MPs right now that are the problem for the Conservative Party - it’s that the membership actively went and voted for Truss when it was obvious how bad she was. I mean, there isn’t a single reason why she should be in the job. Boris may be a dirty word these days, but he has undeniable charisma. Truss is a big vat of nothing and incompetent with it. It was blatantly obvious to any pragmatist that the only legitimate candidate in the recent ballot - despite his faults - was Rishi Sunak. But the membership voted Useless Truss. I don’t know why, although I’m sure many would speculate, particularly about racism. Maybe also about Sunak being a traitor to Johnson, or being a spoilt rich boy with dodgy taxes, or because he wasn’t talking enough about culture wars. Maybe a combination thereof. But they certainly weren’t voting on the basis of either competence or economic pragmatism.

But the Conservatives have been a party riven by ideology for as long as I can remember. They’ve been internally fighting over the European issue and free market approaches since the 70s. The last ten years of governments have been nothing but ideological positioning, devoid of evidence to support their positions, and ultimately failing the majority of the country.