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Lionator

The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

By Lionator, in General Chat

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Facecloth

Facecloth

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I can offer no convincing evidence to the contrary, sadly. Nor do I have an effective solution for the clear and real problem you point out here.

 

I wish I did.

It's frustrating, because I'm sure we can all agree some of what they sre campaign on is important, and I fully support the right to protest, but pouring shit on Cpt Tom, or emptying all the milk in a supermarket or throwing soup at van gogh paintings isn't putting the campaign at the front of everyone's minds. It needs to be aimed at those who can make decisions to help people be greener, aimed at governments, but these protesters don't seem to learn, and everytime they are arrested they see it as justification of their actions, they become martyrs.

 

For example, with electric cars. If the government built better infrastructure, if they assisted with the purchase of a car and installation of chargers I'd happily get one, but right now, I have to get to work to live my life, so I still need my hybrid petrol car to do that, and I can't afford to change it right now. So get on at the government to change things, because ruining everyone's day or destroying things people care about won't do a thing.

 

I can only see it getting worse as the more it happens the more they feel justified, the more they'll do it, and it becomes a vicious circle. Maybe Fazzer has it wrong, maybe despite the criminal damage we need to ignore them. Don't arrest them, don't report it in the press, just ignore it.

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Fazzer 7

Fazzer 7

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

....who said anything about carbon emissions here?

 

This is about loss of species biodiversity, something for which pretty much the entire industrialised human world takes equal responsibility, including the UK.

 

Of course these folks are planks and need a talking to (or whatever), but I am still rather dumbfounded at the lack of focus on the real problem rather than a few idiots playing protestor with some milk in M & S.

 

Let me ask: do you actually care about the real problem and want to see something done about it, or are you just in the mood to complain about matters peripheral to it in a way that means it doesn't get addressed?

I do care, and things are being done about it, mainly it seems by us here in Europe. https://twitter.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1581335838159302657?s=20&t=fhwfstBFwIrYbpxiZWlw8A

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Fazzer 7

Fazzer 7

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

From my point of view, this conversation you're having now is exactly what I fear happens. Fazzer is exactly the kind of person you need to get onside with the battle against climate changeand other important causes such as the sustainability of farming etc, and as proven by this current interaction he's seeing the actions of people like this, rolling his eyes at them or getting pissed off at them and is switched off to the actual issue at hand. And you can be like "yeah yeah they're idiots and need talking to, but there's a bigger issue out there", which you are right about there is a bigger picture, and the people you need to win over a join your fight are being pushed away by these actions. How we stop it I don't know, but it needs to stop as it's doing more harm than good.

I am on side. But I can't support the actions of imbeciles, and frankly, yes, the more this sort of stuff happens the less on side people like me become.

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Facecloth

Facecloth

Posted
Posted

Oh and I should add, people doing this just further the cause of people who want to ban protests of any kind. So they actually damage other future peaceful protests.

 

I agree with the tweet above from Braverman that these actions don't help the cause, but I know she'll use this to force through the anti protest laws even further. Also i don't agree the current government are doing enough, especially with some of the policies in just the last month since Truss came into power.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
Just now, Fazzer 7 said:

I do care, and things are being done about it, mainly it seems by us here in Europe. https://twitter.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1581335838159302657?s=20&t=fhwfstBFwIrYbpxiZWlw8A

....what in there suggests that something is actually being done about the matter beyond sentiment and (more importantly) that it's effective?

 

Ms. Braverman is simply paying lip service to the idea while feeding the Mail readership red meat in the form of telling them what they want to hear here. I am entirely unconvinced that she actually wants to take action to solve the problem.

 

Please present more convincing evidence on your caring about the matter. Being deflected on it by a group of idiots just indicates to me that you don't really care, and simply want an convenient figleaf to appear to care about while not really doing so.

 

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

It's frustrating, because I'm sure we can all agree some of what they sre campaign on is important, and I fully support the right to protest, but pouring shit on Cpt Tom, or emptying all the milk in a supermarket or throwing soup at van gogh paintings isn't putting the campaign at the front of everyone's minds. It needs to be aimed at those who can make decisions to help people be greener, aimed at governments, but these protesters don't seem to learn, and everytime they are arrested they see it as justification of their actions, they become martyrs.

 

For example, with electric cars. If the government built better infrastructure, if they assisted with the purchase of a car and installation of chargers I'd happily get one, but right now, I have to get to work to live my life, so I still need my hybrid petrol car to do that, and I can't afford to change it right now. So get on at the government to change things, because ruining everyone's day or destroying things people care about won't do a thing.

 

I can only see it getting worse as the more it happens the more they feel justified, the more they'll do it, and it becomes a vicious circle. Maybe Fazzer has it wrong, maybe despite the criminal damage we need to ignore them. Don't arrest them, don't report it in the press, just ignore it.

Again, I agree.

 

Perhaps the solution is two-pronged - demonstrate that actions like these won't help through sanction and punishment, but then actually show that the government (and the people who elected them) are willing to support and take action on the problem that they are highlighting.

 

NB. I'll repeat my earlier conspiracy theory that these people may well just be patsies placed by powerful interests designed to discredit the cause and maintain the status quo, given how effective they appear to be at it.

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rachhere

rachhere

Posted
Posted (edited)

I remember growing up that you would often see people on the streets with leaflets looking to educate people on things like animal cruelty. It did have an impact on me as a kid, and my friend became a veggie back in the 90s as a result of those conversations as well. I just don’t see anything like that these days - it’s all about making big statements without the substance. I completely believe change is necessary - but this is not the way to go about it. Why don’t they stand outside supermarkets and talk with people and give out information about alternatives to cows milk and why it’s important. 

Edited by rachhere
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Nod.E

Nod.E

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Oh and I should add, people doing this just further the cause of people who want to ban protests of any kind. So they actually damage other future peaceful protests.

 

I agree with the tweet above from Braverman that these actions don't help the cause, but I know she'll use this to force through the anti protest laws even further. Also i don't agree the current government are doing enough, especially with some of the policies in just the last month since Truss came into power.

Makes you wonder whether that's the reason it makes the news.

 

The sensible thing to do would be to just charge them and not report it. 

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FoyleFox

FoyleFox

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, rachhere said:

I remember growing up that you would often see people on the streets with leaflets looking to educate people on things like animal cruelty. It did have an impact on me as a kid, and my friend became a veggie back in the 90s as a result of those conversations as well. I just don’t see anything like that these days - it’s all about making big statements with the same substance. I completely believe change is necessary - but this is not the way to go about it. Why don’t they stand outside supermarkets and talk with people and give out information about alternatives to cows milk and why it’s important. 

I recall the same, and it did have an impact. It certainly resulted in the boycott of companies who were testing products on animals. In turn, this lead to the ceasing of the practice. However, I do also recall more extreme publicity stunts, probably not dissimilar to those of today by the animal rights groups. Probably the main difference is those things weren't as publicised as now, as there was no internet or social media. It was a photo and column in the paper rather than videos all over twitter/tik tok. Although you may not be as crinkly and old as me lol

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ajthefox

ajthefox

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Makes you wonder whether that's the reason it makes the news.

 

The sensible thing to do would be to just charge them and not report it. 

When there are videos on SM taken by the public straight away it doesn't really give them much choice, does it. They know people will watch/click so they have to engage with it otherwise they lose out to their competitors.

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rachhere

rachhere

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, FoyleFox said:

I recall the same, and it did have an impact. It certainly resulted in the boycott of companies who were testing products on animals. In turn, this lead to the ceasing of the practice. However, I do also recall more extreme publicity stunts, probably not dissimilar to those of today by the animal rights groups. Probably the main difference is those things weren't as publicised as now, as there was no internet or social media. It was a photo and column in the paper rather than videos all over twitter/tik tok. Although you may not be as crinkly and old as me lol

I remember some 'interesting' actions from PETA (help - does that make me crinkly and old?!). 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted

I do wonder why one of either the big oil/gas suppliers, and/or one of the big retailers (Tesco, etc) don’t (cynically) publicly declare they will fix prices at lower levels, offsetting the costs to them against excess profits? I know it seems ridiculous, but that sort of marketing and brand loyalty you really could not buy, let alone that making so much excess profits mean you are a bit sh*t at forecasting anyway (after the initial unexpected revenue)

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st albans fox

st albans fox

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I do wonder why one of either the big oil/gas suppliers, and/or one of the big retailers (Tesco, etc) don’t (cynically) publicly declare they will fix prices at lower levels, offsetting the costs to them against excess profits? I know it seems ridiculous, but that sort of marketing and brand loyalty you really could not buy, let alone that making so much excess profits mean you are a bit sh*t at forecasting anyway (after the initial unexpected revenue)

Retailers like Tesco make small margins 

 

im sure they’ve been caught out by the dollar drop so far this year - sometimes you have to make a little bit more to cover periods where you have to make less 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Retailers like Tesco make small margins 

 

im sure they’ve been caught out by the dollar drop so far this year - sometimes you have to make a little bit more to cover periods where you have to make less 

Perhaps so, but in the case of Tesco, etc, it could have been taken from their excess profits made during covid which were considerable I think?

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