The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Dames]

3 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 - is the greatest trick the Tories pulled off that everyone has forgotten their time in power? 

 

This is one of the biggest tactics they used to win the last election. Create an impression that it's a new government rather than a government in power. 

Its their only tactic. 

 

They've torched their reputation on Brexit and Johnson as the party of economic stability. The proof was yesterday when Starmer asked a question on economic strategy and Johnsons response was to mention about Labour not being able to say what a woman is. 

 

The only thing they have left is to convince the country that whilst things are bad, they would be so much worse under the other guy. Sadly, so many people fall for it time and time again.

[Fazzer 7]

30 minutes ago, bovril said:

They are but this has been obvious for years; I'm not sure what people expected. If there really were a conservative party I may vote for them. 

For me personally and I know many will disagree, the Conservatives have been in decline since Thatcher. She was the best leader we’ve had in my lifetime. The World is a different place now, and a Thatcherite style Conservative party  would be rejected in an instant. But quite what Johnson stands for, god only knows,I think he’s lost us the next election he’s a charlatan. 

[Nick]

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

[bovril]

33 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

For me personally and I know many will disagree, the Conservatives have been in decline since Thatcher. She was the best leader we’ve had in my lifetime. The World is a different place now, and a Thatcherite style Conservative party  would be rejected in an instant. But quite what Johnson stands for, god only knows,I think he’s lost us the next election he’s a charlatan. 

But she wasn't really a typical small c conservative either, not for that time I don't think. Thatcherism is responsible for the decline of conservatism in this country, it's not something that we need to go back to

[The Horse's Mouth]

38 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

For me personally and I know many will disagree, the Conservatives have been in decline since Thatcher. She was the best leader we’ve had in my lifetime. The World is a different place now, and a Thatcherite style Conservative party  would be rejected in an instant. But quite what Johnson stands for, god only knows,I think he’s lost us the next election he’s a charlatan. 

Cameron probably laid down the blueprint of what a modern Tory party should be, but brexit derailed that and I think the main issue with this current Tory party is quite simple, because of how unstable the political landscape has been especially since Cameron stepped down and brexit became the focal point, so many of their actual talented politicians that probably do belong on front benches whether that's your leanings or not and have all been and gone. All the people now in cabinet apart from Gove were pretty much all snubbed by more viable governments that proceeded them 

[Fazzer 7]

54 minutes ago, bovril said:

 Thatcherism is responsible for the decline of conservatism in this country, it's not something that we need to go back to

I would say her first term was her best. And you're probably right.

[Daggers]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

That wasn’t what I experienced….

 

…but then there is probably a lot to be said for this.

Also, I have most of the freaky left already blocked. I’m still working my way through the nutty right. 

[Alf Bentley]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

I know Corbyn was leave, but his supporters often weren’t and often did not accept that. Like in all cases their are exceptions but the ones I found the most vociferously abusive were of the massively pro Corbyn/momentum type.

 

4 hours ago, Daggers said:

Seriously don’t reckon they were. Majority of them bought into the whole Corbynite view of the EU being a bad thing and not a route to pure(itanical) socialism. 
 

Not knocking their propensity to be rude, hypocritical idiots, but my experience of it all was that the dim right Leavers were the worst for abuse. But then that’s probably what twitter and facebooks engineered. 

 

I reckon research would show that the older Momentum leadership and younger but highly politicized Hard Leftists were/are "Socialism in one country" Brexiteers, like Corbyn. In contrast, the majority of Corbyn's mass of shallower supporters, motivated by simplistic idealism, the "JC is a nice guy" personality cult or "I'm a nice guy" narcissism, were passionate Remainers. This was particularly true for the mass of Corbynista keyboard warriors - overwhelmingly Remainers.

 

Those shallow Remainer-Corbynistas mostly didn't realise that Corbyn was a lifelong Eurosceptic and angrily rejected this fact when it was pointed out to them. Their delusion was facilitated by him having to fence-sit due to being the leader of an overwhelmingly Remainer party....though he certainly did his bit for the Brexit cause if you compare his dynamic 2017 general election campaign (mass rallies etc.) with his near-absence from rallies and TV interviews during the 2016 referendum.

 

I had a Facebook exchange with a politicized Corbynista last week, in which he described Remain as a "right-wing" position....

 

The Labour history on this dates back at least to the 1970s, when the Labour Left strongly opposed membership of the EEC. Until about the late 1980s, opposition to EEC/EU membership was pretty universal on the Hard Left. Corbyn became an MP in 1983, under the anti-EEC Foot leadership. Since then, some on the Hard Left (Livingstone, McDonnell) have switched to a Remain and Reform stance, recognising the realities of globalising economics, the comparative powerlessness of a medium-sized state and the socioeconomic benefits of the EU since Delors (alongside negatives from a Leftist perspective). Thicker and more narcissistic Leftists, like Corbyn, who prefer absolutist policy shopping lists to thought and compromise, still support Left Brexit - while, ironically, Corbyn's thicker, shallower and more narcissistic followers passionately support Corbyn and Remain!

 

As for abuse, there was plenty from Brexiteers and Remainers alike - particularly keyboard warriors on both sides: "thick racists" v. "privileged, woke traitors" etc. 

 

Anecdote:

I've told this one before but bear with me as it still amuses me and I'm old enough to be allowed to repeat myself.... In 1983, I was a keen, 20-year-old Labour activist doorknocking for the general election. One bloke told me that I could indeed rely on him voting Labour. He normally voted National Front, he said, but he'd be voting Labour because of their policy to leave the EEC. Particularly as he thought all the blacks should be repatriated back where they came from. I replied that many of them were born here, then added that I was British born and bred from a mainly Irish family and asked whether he thought I should be sent "back" to Ireland. He thought that I should. Despite his support, Labour lost the seat to the Tories....

 

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

For me personally and I know many will disagree, the Conservatives have been in decline since Thatcher. She was the best leader we’ve had in my lifetime. The World is a different place now, and a Thatcherite style Conservative party  would be rejected in an instant. But quite what Johnson stands for, god only knows,I think he’s lost us the next election he’s a charlatan. 

Exactly, the only thing Johnson stands for is himself. His policies are a wish wash of looking hard but following through with nothing. There’s no conservatism, essentially soft libertarian policies than he’ll walk back on if it’s too far right. 

[HighPeakFox]

 

[bovril]

I am once again asking people to understand who 'Little Englanders' actually were

[Foxdiamond]

On 19/05/2022 at 12:33, Fazzer 7 said:

For me personally and I know many will disagree, the Conservatives have been in decline since Thatcher. She was the best leader we’ve had in my lifetime. The World is a different place now, and a Thatcherite style Conservative party  would be rejected in an instant. But quite what Johnson stands for, god only knows,I think he’s lost us the next election he’s a charlatan. 

Just to give the opposite point of view for me Thatcher caused great division in the country. I despised her. 

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Just to give the opposite point of view for me Thatcher caused great division in the country. I despised her. 

So did I, but I suspect she would have taken climate change very seriously, and would be minded to be guided by the science.

[Foxdiamond]

7 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

So did I, but I suspect she would have taken climate change very seriously, and would be minded to be guided by the science.

Possibly but she did not do much for public transport or providing alternatives to car use

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Possibly but she did not do much for public transport or providing alternatives to car use

Certainly true, and I’m no apologist for Thatcher, but I do think that yesteryear’s conservatives stand in stark contrast to the anti science, increasing anti democratic & corrupt, environmental vandals that get served up around the world today, like Trump, Bolsonaro, and to some extent Morrison here in Australia. I’d include Johnson, but he does at least seem to be less of a climate denier.

[HighPeakFox]

I got the ultimate endorsement of a laughing emoji from two people today - a sure sign of someone with nothing better to say.

[Facecloth]

7 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I got the ultimate endorsement of a laughing emoji from two people today - a sure sign of someone with nothing better to say.

Can you imagine him trying to dismantle that Mhairi Black speech? 

[Parafox]

4 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Just to give the opposite point of view for me Thatcher caused great division in the country. I despised her. 

 

9 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Certainly true, and I’m no apologist for Thatcher, but I do think that yesteryear’s conservatives stand in stark contrast to the anti science, increasing anti democratic & corrupt, environmental vandals that get served up around the world today, like Trump, Bolsonaro, and to some extent Morrison here in Australia. I’d include Johnson, but he does at least seem to be less of a climate denier.

FWIW I think, if she could have gone unopposed, she would have deconstructed the whole social welfare and benefits system and brought absolute poverty to those in the most need. She didn't care about those most vulnerable. She had no choice but to accept the need for support for the unemployed. To do otherwise would be political suicide, but I still believe she loathed the benefits system and "free" handouts, even down to scrapping school milk for kids.

IMO nasty, selfish, heartless, uncaring. I wouldn't want another Thatcher, ever. 

[Foxdiamond]

28 minutes ago, Parafox said:

 

FWIW I think, if she could have gone unopposed, she would have deconstructed the whole social welfare and benefits system and brought absolute poverty to those in the most need. She didn't care about those most vulnerable. She had no choice but to accept the need for support for the unemployed. To do otherwise would be political suicide, but I still believe she loathed the benefits system and "free" handouts, even down to scrapping school milk for kids.

IMO nasty, selfish, heartless, uncaring. I wouldn't want another Thatcher, ever. 

I think she would have been out on her ear after one term but The Falklands War changed the situation in her favour. Always struck me as odd as it was under her watch the government took their eye off the intelligence regarding the Argentine's junta intentions. The fact the armed forces had to win the islands back somehow reflected well on her. Awful woman.

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Certainly true, and I’m no apologist for Thatcher, but I do think that yesteryear’s conservatives stand in stark contrast to the anti science, increasing anti democratic & corrupt, environmental vandals that get served up around the world today, like Trump, Bolsonaro, and to some extent Morrison here in Australia. I’d include Johnson, but he does at least seem to be less of a climate denier.

Words mean absolutely nothing with Johnson. That has been proven time and again. He’s less of a climate denier because it’s a vote winner. The green finance strategy is out for consultation now and due in 22/06, let’s see what govt do about it. Likewise let’s see if they allow the uk endorsement board to endorse issb standards around scope 3 disclosures to really move the needle. My guess is no and no, it’s all lip service 

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Certainly true, and I’m no apologist for Thatcher, but I do think that yesteryear’s conservatives stand in stark contrast to the anti science, increasing anti democratic & corrupt, environmental vandals that get served up around the world today, like Trump, Bolsonaro, and to some extent Morrison here in Australia. I’d include Johnson, but he does at least seem to be less of a climate denier.

I'm repeating this because I do think it's an important distinction to make.

 

The 80's style conservatives clearly held the poor and various other demographics in contempt as evidenced by their policy, but what they did not do was present a clear and present threat to the continuation of human civilisation through ignorance of science (With the possible exception of Reagan on a couple of matters). I'm not sure I can say the same regarding the current crop.

 

Once again, that is an important, possibly critical distinction.

[Jon the Hat]

So it looks like Labor will form the next Australian Government with a rather dull unassuming leader against a bullshitting incumbent.  There might be a lesson for the Tories in there somewhere.

[ozleicester]

FILFTHY SCUMBAG CORRUPT HATEMONGERS VOTED OUT IN AUSTRALIA.

Huge swing to greens and climate politics

Fvck off you heartless bastards

[WigstonWanderer]

13 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Words mean absolutely nothing with Johnson. That has been proven time and again. He’s less of a climate denier because it’s a vote winner. The green finance strategy is out for consultation now and due in 22/06, let’s see what govt do about it. Likewise let’s see if they allow the uk endorsement board to endorse issb standards around scope 3 disclosures to really move the needle. My guess is no and no, it’s all lip service 

Yes I think you’re probably right. The main abiding characteristic of Johnson is his opportunistic promotion of his own career.