The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Vacamion]

 

It's ludicrous that all of this theatre de merde has followed a 52/48 vote on a yes/no proposition about an incredibly complex matter, which made no mention of the future trading arrangements, the single market (which many on the Leave side promised we would still have access to) or what would happen to Northern Ireland, which is unsolveable.

 

It's like an entire country took a 10 yard run up and kicked itself hard in the baws.

 

Then spent 6 years soiling itself.

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

How would an overseas solution actually work, genuinely interested? I assume that there would have to be an agreement with a country that a particular area of theirs would become a magnet to people looking for asylum in a similar way that Calais is now. I assume that this may not prove very attractive for the host country for varying reasons.
 

What about the assumptions that individuals from a country like Eritrea are all genuine cases? If these assumptions are accepted then making access easier would increase the numbers hugely wouldn’t it? Before even thinking of doing this there would need to be a fairly accurate understanding of how many would come so that the infrastructure could be provided to support this. 
 

How would this fit in with the move to more automation? People with low and poor communication skills may have a role to play now but will they always? Of course training can be provided, but this would be at significant cost. Would it be a one off or would it be an open ended agreement? I remember reading that Africa’s population is expected to double by 2050, surely we need to establish an upper limit that can be provided for given the size of our country?

Just wait until a significant proportion of that population - as well as a lot of South East Asia - is forced to migrate due to lack of food and potable water, because the UK and other established nations couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery regarding increasing global average temperatures?

 

That will be a dealing-with-a-problem-of-your-own-creation ethical dilemma for the ages.

 

14 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Clearly tax hikes on the way - and stealth tax increases from freezing rate bands effectively with wages increasing the govt will be collecting more tax.

 

Looks like Sunak and Hunt want all this out in the open before the 17th to see the public and market reaction. I was never in the truss camp for tax cuts but I don't agree with reversing the 1.25% NI increase Sunak put in as Chancellor - we are already over taxed in this country and I don't know how a conserative governement can stomach more rises off the back of the last few years alone.  Shambles

I would submit that the problem is where the taxes are being taken from rather than the amount.

[Vacamion]

41 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 it sets our country back decades and leaves me feeling like I'm being kept hostage on this island.

 

Alright, Nicola Sturgeon...  

[David Hankey]

46 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

He couldn't stay when he campaigned for staying and then lost.

Why not? Running away like a coward was highly disrespectful to those millions who voted to leave.

 

If he ever thought the result would not to be to his liking why hold the referendum in the first place?

 

After all, he would not have been the first PM to do a 'U-turn'.

[grobyfox1990]

41 minutes ago, Unabomber said:

Crazy how some people still can’t admit that voting to leave was a bad idea. Just hold your hands up we all make mistakes. 

If Europe unravels in a decade or so time because of Putin or another major incident like Covid flares inherent disunity again, and commentators look to the UK for being 'the first to see what happened and get out' will you admit you were wrong by voting remain? Of course you wouldn't lol. I certanly would not.

 

Brexiteers were largely sold a lie and what is happening is probably not what they voted for. It is also only 6 years since the vote, a lot can still change. To say that people should admit they were wrong because they voted out is disingenious and short sighted.

[filthyfox]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

 

 

Brexiteers were largely sold a lie and what is happening is probably not what they voted for. It is also only 6 years since the vote, a lot can still change. To say that people should admit they were wrong because they voted out is disingenious and short sighted.

Ahhh Brexit.

In 2016 2pint milk from Asda cost £.89, and had been steady for years.

Now... £1.28

 

Thanks Brexit, I feel SO much better off!

[Salisbury Fox]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Just wait until a significant proportion of that population - as well as a lot of South East Asia - is forced to migrate due to lack of food and potable water, because the UK and other established nations couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery regarding increasing global average temperatures?

 

That will be a dealing-with-a-problem-of-your-own-creation ethical dilemma for the ages.

 

I would submit that the problem is where the taxes are being taken from rather than the amount.

Well of course, but that doesn’t answer the questions posed. 

[BKLFox]

3 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

I find it fascinating that we have absolutely nobody to do the most basic of jobs, in many cases and plenty of people willing to do them for absolutely crap wages.

 

Yet, here we are. 

 

I'll take an Albanian, please. They can live in my shed and do the hoovering. 

without any background checks or on the basis that they must be desperate because they crossed the channel on a half inflated dinghy?

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Well of course, but that doesn’t answer the questions posed. 

No, but it does make a relevant observation on the acuity of the problem.

 

To answer the immigration question in a broad sense, unless the developed world actually pulls its finger out and/or at some point in the near future immigration policy is looked at and modified in a great many countries, the choice will be between either allowing a great deal more migration, or tens of millions of people (at minimum) suffering and dying. The greatest non-warfare humanitarian crisis in history.

 

Perhaps the UK (and other places) should do work on the logistics of their immigration policy now in order to prepare for this very possible later.

[Robo61]

39 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

How would an overseas solution actually work, genuinely interested? I assume that there would have to be an agreement with a country that a particular area of theirs would become a magnet to people looking for asylum in a similar way that Calais is now. I assume that this may not prove very attractive for the host country for varying reasons.
 

What about the assumptions that individuals from a country like Eritrea are all genuine cases? If these assumptions are accepted then making access easier would increase the numbers hugely wouldn’t it? Before even thinking of doing this there would need to be a fairly accurate understanding of how many would come so that the infrastructure could be provided to support this. 
 

How would this fit in with the move to more automation? People with low and poor communication skills may have a role to play now but will they always? Of course training can be provided, but this would be at significant cost. Would it be a one off or would it be an open ended agreement? I remember reading that Africa’s population is expected to double by 2050, surely we need to establish an upper limit that can be provided for given the size of our country?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/26/channel-crossings-france-uk-johnson-macron-letter

 

France are more than willing to host a UK Asylum Application Processing Centre. 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, David Hankey said:

Brexit has been made worse by those who didn't want it.

 

Coupled together with the Covid pandemic, which I agree hasn't helped, but how many foresaw this when casting their vote back in 2016.

Several people! Ultimately, they thought that it would be a disaster, totally not beneficial for the UK and definitely not the right thing to do. 

 

Tell me, where are those 'sunlit uplands' we were promised? 

 

They also said it may be short term pain but long term gain. Tell me, how short is short term? When do we start to see the 'gains' from Brexit? 

[Sambiasso]

16 minutes ago, filthyfox said:

Ahhh Brexit.

In 2016 2pint milk from Asda cost £.89, and had been steady for years.

Now... £1.28

 

Thanks Brexit, I feel SO much better off!

Exactly right! Since Brexit food inflation has risen a massive 14.5% in the UK...Compared to Central Europe which is 15.4%  

The fact every country in the world(except 3) has seen food prices rise since then would suggest Brexit has little to no impact on the price of wholesale milk, look more towards the corporate greed from supermarkets who pay between 18-22p per litre of milk....But yeah Brexit 

 

[urban.spaceman]

Just realised. More people will be voting for Matt Hancock to eat a bollock than have actually voted for Rishi Sunak to become Prime Minister.

[Greg2607]

59 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

How would an overseas solution actually work, genuinely interested? I assume that there would have to be an agreement with a country that a particular area of theirs would become a magnet to people looking for asylum in a similar way that Calais is now. I assume that this may not prove very attractive for the host country for varying reasons.
 

What about the assumptions that individuals from a country like Eritrea are all genuine cases? If these assumptions are accepted then making access easier would increase the numbers hugely wouldn’t it? Before even thinking of doing this there would need to be a fairly accurate understanding of how many would come so that the infrastructure could be provided to support this. 
 

How would this fit in with the move to more automation? People with low and poor communication skills may have a role to play now but will they always? Of course training can be provided, but this would be at significant cost. Would it be a one off or would it be an open ended agreement? I remember reading that Africa’s population is expected to double by 2050, surely we need to establish an upper limit that can be provided for given the size of our country?

what if you could apply for asylum at every British embassy in the world? of course, it's going to create bottlenecks and swelling of people seeking asylum around those embassies... but these people are moving through countries anyway. they just happen to currently turn up on our shores... 

 

if they could move through a british embassy in any country in the world, then it might even make the transit for them safer. 

 

Clearly, it's an overly simplistic view, and there is loads of unanswered questions in this (where do we host them before transit etc) 

 

but is it such a bad solution versus the current setup? 

 

 

 

[Sampson]

51 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

If Europe unravels in a decade or so time because of Putin or another major incident like Covid flares inherent disunity again, and commentators look to the UK for being 'the first to see what happened and get out' will you admit you were wrong by voting remain? Of course you wouldn't lol. I certanly would not.

 

Brexiteers were largely sold a lie and what is happening is probably not what they voted for. It is also only 6 years since the vote, a lot can still change. To say that people should admit they were wrong because they voted out is disingenious and short sighted.

“This isn’t the Brexit I voted for” is for the 2020s what “real Communism hasn’t been tried” was to the 1980s. Fantasist drivel by people who don’t understand what either thing means.

 

We’ve left the single market, we’ve left the customs Union. Other than sticking the customs border on the Irish border rather than the Irish Sea which likely would’ve caused even more issues on the island of Ireland and probably led to an even sooner unification of Ireland (which I think Brexit has made inevitable either way), what exactly could’ve been done differently to be the Brexit that people voted for?

 

People told you that leaving the customs Union meant unsustainable fees on goods that many companies wouldn’t be able to do, people told you it meant it would be much harder for British citizens to move to Europe and for British business to expand into Europe, people told you it would lead to shortages in products and workers. Yet the sloganeering response was just “that’s project fear” - a meaningless 2 word slogan that shuts down actual debates, but sloganeering seems to win the day these days.

Boris Johnson even said it was “project fear” that British citizens would have to stand in non-EU lines when travelling to Schengen and would have to have greater checks and be in the same queues behind people of nationalities like Syrian and Iraqi who required even greater checks. Even when that was so obviously the case as it is pretty clear in EU law relating to non-EU nations

 

I don’t understand exactly what people mean when they say “this isn’t the Brexit I voted for” - like we’ve left the EU now, all facets of it with the exception of Northern Ireland still being inside the customs part of it. If you are disappointed with what the UK has done since and you wanted a Trussonomics style tax haven off the shore of Europe or wanted non-EU migration curbed too or trade deals with other nations instead like CANZUK then that’s all related to UK policy and what the UK has done since and has absolutely nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.

Edited 1 November 2022 by Sampson

[Robo61]

2 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

what if you could apply for asylum at every British embassy in the world? of course, it's going to create bottlenecks and swelling of people seeking asylum around those embassies... but these people are moving through countries anyway. they just happen to currently turn up on our shores... 

 

if they could move through a british embassy in any country in the world, then it might even make the transit for them safer. 

 

Clearly, it's an overly simplistic view, and there is loads of unanswered questions in this (where do we host them before transit etc) 

 

but is it such a bad solution versus the current setup? 

 

 

 

Just take uip the offer with France,  simples.  This lot are not doing that bewcause they believe keeping immigration in the public eye is a vote winner for them.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/26/channel-crossings-france-uk-johnson-macron-letter

[weller54]

2 hours ago, The Guvnor said:

Not sure how Brexit has made any difference to the current immigration situation. Unless you are suggesting that the government are trying to deal with it in a way that they feel would appease Brexiteers.

I’m no expert on global migration, but any human being with an ounce of Altruism would have to feel compassion for the plight of genuine asylum seekers and fully support their endeavour to find safety for their families. In addition, economic migrants just looking for a better life. 

Not really sure what the medias agenda is however by constantly showing migrants landing on our shores, along with their reporting recently for example 12000 Albanians, this year, 10000 of which are single males, up from 50 two years ago, from a country which has no current conflicts just promulgates further resentment. France appear unable to control the number of boat crossings, and once they set sail are no longer the responsibility of French authorities, so showing the French escorting these small inflatables out of their waters suggesting their waving them on their way to UK shores is maybe not the best way to make people more accepting in a positive manner of the situation.

 

 

'France seem unable to control the amount of crossings ' ?....

Not Brexit related?

I just think that if we hadn't have treated France and our other European neighbours with contempt...

A ..by voting to leave in the first place &

B.. the way the withdrawal arrangements were handled by Bozo and his henchmen

....then maybe (if we were still an active member of the EU) the UK could have had a decent working relationship with France and designed a system together to prevent many of the crossings?

But no, we've got a situation exactly how the Brexiteers wanted it to be. That is, to take back control wasn't it?  We didn't want to be part of Europe and to work as one for the benefit of all!!

I don't blame France for putting 2 fingers up at us!!  Like most Countries around the world they're laughing their socks off at our demise since the stupidity of Brexit took place.

 

[grobyfox1990]

7 minutes ago, Sampson said:

“This isn’t the Brexit I voted for” is for the 2020s what “real Communism hasn’t been tried” was to the 1980s. Fantasist drivel by people who don’t understand what either thing means.

 

We’ve left the single market, we’ve left the customs Union. Other than sticking the customs border on the Irish border rather than the Irish Sea which likely would’ve caused even more issues on the island of Ireland and probably led to an even sooner unification of Ireland (which I think Brexit has made inevitable either way), what exactly could’ve been done differently to be the Brexit that people voted for?

 

People told you that leaving the customs Union meant unsustainable fees on goods that many companies wouldn’t be able to do, people told you it meant it would be much harder for British citizens to move to Europe and for British business to expand into Europe, people told you it would lead to shortages in products and workers. Yet the sloganeering response was just “that’s project fear” - a meaningless 2 word slogan that shits down actual debates, but sloganeering seems to win the day these days.

Boris Johnson even said it was “project fear” that British citizens would have to stand in non-EU lines when travelling to Schengen and would have to have greater checks and be in the same queues behind people of nationalities like Syrian and Iraqi who required even greater checks. Even when that was so obviously the case as it is pretty clear in EU law relating to non-EU nations

 

I don’t understand exactly what people mean when they say “this isn’t the Brexit I voted for” - like we’ve left the EU now, all facets of it with the exception of Northern Ireland still being inside the customs part of it. If you are disappointed with what the UK has done since and you wanted a Trussonomics style tax haven off the shore of Europe or wanted non-EU migration curbed too or trade deals with other nations instead like CANZUK then that’s all related to UK policy and has absolutely nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.

Lol i kinda knew my initial post would trigger someone not actually reading my initial post and launching into a batsh1t mad diatribe. To spell out my initial post in the simplest of terms that requires no intuition or understanding - i did not vote for leave, i voted remain, so there's no point addressng me lol. If things in Europe unravel i would not admit my vote to remain was wrong, hindsight is 20/20.

 

It's obvious they were sold a lie - starting with a red bus that i imagine has broken down by now? And ranging to issues such as easy trade deals being signed, no checks or barriers into the single market, no barriers to trade, no bonfire of workers rights, services market largely staying intact, ability to transfer professional qualifications cross-border, being 'first in the queue' - and the list goes on and on. Has any of this happened?

 

Kudos to you if you have a brain big enough to have seen through all these lies, but that big brain must then surely understand these are, in fact, lies and brexit voters were lied to. Completely short sighted and disingenious to suggest everyone should've understood the issues they way you did, and now 6 years into a multi-decade project, admit they were wrong.

 

 

[Robo61]

8 minutes ago, weller54 said:

'France seem unable to control the amount of crossings ' ?....

Not Brexit related?

I just think that if we hadn't have treated France and our other European neighbours with contempt...

A ..by voting to leave in the first place &

B.. the way the withdrawal arrangements were handled by Bozo and his henchmen

....then maybe (if we were still an active member of the EU) the UK could have had a decent working relationship with France and designed a system together to prevent many of the crossings?

But no, we've got a situation exactly how the Brexiteers wanted it to be. That is, to take back control wasn't it?  We didn't want to be part of Europe and to work as one for the benefit of all!!

I don't blame France for putting 2 fingers up at us!!  Like most Countries around the world they're laughing their socks off at our demise since the stupidity of Brexit took place.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/26/channel-crossings-france-uk-johnson-macron-letter

 

France have not at all put two fingers up to us,  they've offered to to host an Ayslum Processing Centre there.  This hatefull government though prefer that migrants cross the channel in boats in order to claim Asylum.

[rachhere]

2 hours ago, Unabomber said:

I just find it very weak that people can’t admit when they got things wrong. 

I was really on the fence about which way to vote. I wasn't a huge fan of the way things were working in Europe. In the end I concluded that as a country we just werent in a financial position to gamble on something like this, so voted remain. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight I can't believe I even contemplated voting leave! 

[weller54]

7 minutes ago, rachhere said:

I was really on the fence about which way to vote. I wasn't a huge fan of the way things were working in Europe. In the end I concluded that as a country we just werent in a financial position to gamble on something like this, so voted remain. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight I can't believe I even contemplated voting leave! 

You probably contemplated it because of all the lies that were constantly dished out to the people 24/7!!..Farage and Johnson being the biggest culprits 🤬...

It was a con, a fraud!!

and the thicko electorate fell for it.

[Daggers]

3 hours ago, The Guvnor said:

Our relationship with France I would suggest has no bearing at all in making someone’s decision to leaving their home country.

Pretty sure I heard Macron saying their relationship with the UK is a special one and one France wishes to maintain.

Was he massaging the truth.

 

I'll try again, would you say our relationship with France is better, the same, or worse following Brexit?

[Salisbury Fox]

1 hour ago, Greg2607 said:

what if you could apply for asylum at every British embassy in the world? of course, it's going to create bottlenecks and swelling of people seeking asylum around those embassies... but these people are moving through countries anyway. they just happen to currently turn up on our shores... 

 

if they could move through a british embassy in any country in the world, then it might even make the transit for them safer. 

 

Clearly, it's an overly simplistic view, and there is loads of unanswered questions in this (where do we host them before transit etc) 

 

but is it such a bad solution versus the current setup? 

 

 

 

I certainly think we should be open to ideas on this as the current mess is unacceptable, but I am not convinced it’s that simple. Thanks for the reply

[dsr-burnley]

3 hours ago, filthyfox said:

Ahhh Brexit.

In 2016 2pint milk from Asda cost £.89, and had been steady for years.

Now... £1.28

 

Thanks Brexit, I feel SO much better off!

Leicester City won the league in 2016.  I suspect that had just as big an effect as Brexit on the price of milk.

[Dahnsouff]

38 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Leicester City won the league in 2016.  I suspect that had just as big an effect as Brexit on the price of milk.

Ah, guess that explains our shocking form over the last few seasons, better to be safe than sorry