The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[weller54]

5 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

All i want to see is a party that lays down a manifesto and then delivers on it. What we have now is just liars and conmen. "We'll give 400 million a week to the NHS"   fair play, get on with it then " ahh we didn't actually mean we'll give 400 million to the NHS" WTF.

A Brexit windfall for the NHS 😂😂... and people believed it!!

Johnson and Farage are snake oil salesmen, Con men!

The thing is now, people who were taken in by them and voted out are too proud to admit they were conned!!..

They'll STILL argue Brexit was the right thing for our Country despite all the evidence to the contrary!!

Anyone on here who voted out who would like to admit they were conned?

[bovril]

3 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Please enlighten me as to how our lives here in the UK would be so much better under a labour/socialist Government? People keep banging on about this, but without borrowing  yet more hundreds of billions. I'd suggest nothing will improve the "suffering".  Suffering btw is what is happening to the people of Ukraine!

 

I've voted Conservative all my life, just a normal bloke who had a small business and as now retired early. Ive never felt remotely inclined to vote Labour, why is that? if they're so good for everyone! Persuade me why I should vote labour in 2024, I acknowledge right now isn't a good time, but the pandemic and reaction to it has caused this, and not just here, the World over. 

 

The conservatives have made Britons progressively poorer over the last 12 years, often because of deliberate choices they made. Say what you like about New Labour but they generally tried and often succeeded to raise living standards. 

[Dames]

3 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Please enlighten me as to how our lives here in the UK would be so much better under a labour/socialist Government? People keep banging on about this, but without borrowing  yet more hundreds of billions. I'd suggest nothing will improve the "suffering".  Suffering btw is what is happening to the people of Ukraine!

 

I've voted Conservative all my life, just a normal bloke who had a small business and as now retired early. Ive never felt remotely inclined to vote Labour, why is that? if they're so good for everyone! Persuade me why I should vote labour in 2024, I acknowledge right now isn't a good time, but the pandemic and reaction to it has caused this, and not just here, the World over. 

 

Borrowing and debt have increased year on year since the Conservatives came into power even before the pandemic, another myth dispelled. 

 

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, weller54 said:

A Brexit windfall for the NHS 😂😂... and people believed it!!

Johnson and Farage are snake oil salesmen, Con men!

The thing is now, people who were taken in by them and voted out are too proud to admit they were conned!!..

They'll STILL argue Brexit was the right thing for our Country despite all the evidence to the contrary!!

Anyone on here who voted out who would like to admit they were conned?

It seems that lying is the way to get on in life, if you ask me, the fvcking teachers were lying when they told us not to lie.

Edited 24 May 2022 by yorkie1999

[Number 6]

People surely can't lack sufficient imagination to see that things could be better than they are under the current government?

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, Dames said:

Borrowing and debt have increased year on year since the Conservatives came into power even before the pandemic, another myth dispelled. 

 

So we didn’t have austerity then?

[Dames]

2 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

People surely can't lack sufficient imagination to see that things could be better than they are under the current government?

People start getting there then the propaganda machine goes into overdrive. All of a sudden Muslims are coming to ban the poppy or steal Christmas. Lefties want to ban all jokes and tear down our statues. Teachers get too many holidays and aren't working hard enough. Nurses and Doctors strike too much. Foreigners are clogging up Doctors Surgeries and the NHS and so on.

[Dames]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So we didn’t have austerity then?

Yeah and it did absolutely naff all to bring the national debt down. In fact it did the opposite and increased it.

[Facecloth]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So we didn’t have austerity then?

We did, but we cut where we shouldn't have cut and kept spending where we could have cut and in the end it did **** all to reduce the deficit and national debt and just made peoples lives miserable.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

We did, but we cut where we shouldn't have cut and kept spending where we could have cut and in the end it did **** all to reduce the deficit and national debt and just made peoples lives miserable.

It’s only technically austerity if you cut national spending overall, otherwise it’s just reallocation. 
If we didn’t go into recession and we did cut spending but increased the debt further, the only explanation is interest on the debt. Which is inherited?

[Fazzer 7]

3 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

I expect there isn't much point trying to persuade somebody who thinks the words Labour and Socialist are interchangeable. Guessing in your view Socialist means anyone who doesn't agree with you?

Not necessarily. I would regard the SNP as out and out Socialists. As for labour Starmer is clearly not so left wing as Corbyn. But what worries me, is the hard or far left elements are still lurking in the shadows.

[Lionator]

Just now, Fazzer 7 said:

Not necessarily. I would regard the SNP as out and out Socialists. As for labour Starmer is clearly not so left wing as Corbyn. But what worries me, is the hard or far left elements are still lurking in the shadows.

The SNP are not socialists Jesus. They’re essentially Lib Dems who want to leave the union. 

[RoboFox]

12 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

People surely can't lack sufficient imagination to see that things could be better than they are under the current government?

They can. It's just that the hills that many of their supporters have chosen to die on are too small now.

 

It's the same with Brexit. 

[Dunge]

5 minutes ago, Lionator said:

The SNP are not socialists Jesus. They’re essentially Lib Dems who want to leave the union. 

They’re surely further left than the Lib Dems? Or at least what the Lib Dems used to be. Granted they’re not as far left as the Greens or Corbyn’s Labour.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Not necessarily. I would regard the SNP as out and out Socialists. As for labour Starmer is clearly not so left wing as Corbyn. But what worries me, is the hard or far left elements are still lurking in the shadows.

I understand the worry, but if you don’t vote for the moderates then the extremists move on them anyway.

[Dames]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s only technically austerity if you cut national spending overall, otherwise it’s just reallocation. 
If we didn’t go into recession and we did cut spending but increased the debt further, the only explanation is interest on the debt. Which is inherited?

Interest does not nearly double the debt. So we had austerity and cuts to all essential services whilst paying more and more each year for the honor and the net result is we are just worse off as a population generally?

 

I mean its not a surprise when the Chancellor is spending 500,000 of tax payer money with a PR firm to improve his image. You're right its just a reallocation which under this Conservative party is just a reallocation to the wrong places.

 

[Greg2607]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61566410

 

i mean.....  get them out now. 

 

I can't explain how angry this makes me.  

[Fazzer 7]

2 hours ago, Gubbins said:

Taking party loyalty out of it the reason you should vote for someone else is because the Conservatives don't deserve your vote. The constant u turns, lies, cronyism, corruption and complete inability to achieve anything of substance. That's before you get to the people you'd be voting for. Born to rule, etonites with no concept of a normal person's day to day like Johnson, Rees Mogg and Sunak or utter incompetents like Dorries and Raab who's primary concern is to cling on to their undeserved position. Chances are Labour or a coalition of them and some other parties wouldn't be much better but at least there's a chance they would be. Things will only get worse with the current bunch in charge.

You raise some valid points, and If I'm honest I am not a Boris Johnson fan boy and as for the likes of Dorries and Raab I agree they're a disgrace. What I would like is for the Conservatives to get their house in order as much as many other Tories. You only have to read the comments in the Telegraph to gauge the strength of feeling among Tory supporters. But whether or not I could be lured away next time, may depend on the manifesto's.I accept Starmer may occupy more of the centre ground than his predecessor but the far left are still around, and it's that element that worries me most.

[Facecloth]

6 hours ago, Strokes said:

It’s only technically austerity if you cut national spending overall, otherwise it’s just reallocation. 
If we didn’t go into recession and we did cut spending but increased the debt further, the only explanation is interest on the debt. Which is inherited?

Not necessarily. We didn't reallocate. We cut things like front line police officers, front line NHS staff, children services, family service etc. We didn't look if this was wasted money or essential spending. And because we didn't stop the wastage, that gets worse, we don't actually save money and we get less for it.

 

Add to that the knock on effect of cutting these frontline service, less police to make you safer, less hospital staff so your wait is longer, less family and children service to help you which then often leads to more crime making people's lives miseries.

 

I hate connecting government spending and debt to household budgets but I will this case. If you are spending more than you make, do you cut back on luxuries like beer, days out, take aways, subscription services etc or do you stop paying your mortgage, bills, council tax, debt repayments? We essentially stop paying the latter group whilst we carried on going down the pub, and watching Netflix all weekend.

Edited 24 May 2022 by Facecloth

[Foxdiamond]

11 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

You raise some valid points, and If I'm honest I am not a Boris Johnson fan boy and as for the likes of Dorries and Raab I agree they're a disgrace. What I would like is for the Conservatives to get their house in order as much as many other Tories. You only have to read the comments in the Telegraph to gauge the strength of feeling among Tory supporters. But whether or not I could be lured away next time, may depend on the manifesto's.I accept Starmer may occupy more of the centre ground than his predecessor but the far left are still around, and it's that element that worries me most.

It's the extreme Tories I worry about.

[chapero82]

12 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

You raise some valid points, and If I'm honest I am not a Boris Johnson fan boy and as for the likes of Dorries and Raab I agree they're a disgrace. What I would like is for the Conservatives to get their house in order as much as many other Tories. You only have to read the comments in the Telegraph to gauge the strength of feeling among Tory supporters. But whether or not I could be lured away next time, may depend on the manifesto's.I accept Starmer may occupy more of the centre ground than his predecessor but the far left are still around, and it's that element that worries me most.

I don’t understand what could worry you more than a party that wants us to just survive enough so we can fill their pockets 

[Fazzer 7]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

‘Socialist’ is being extremely liberal with the term in regards to Labour under Starmer, especially given the clamp down on the Left Wing of the party. 
 

‘Borrowing’, as you put it, is a bit of a misnomer given it’s nothing like an individual borrowing or lending money. Furthermore, if you do want to compare it to the individual, go do you think prospers more in the general sense: the person who invests in themselves or the person who doesn’t wash, wears rags and lives in a run down hovel to be ‘fiscally responsible’? Unfettered borrowing obviously is a bad policy but as we’ve found out, so is austerity. You need to sensibly invest in your country to see it in prosper. ‘Levelling Up’ seems to be nothing more than a tool to either reward or punish Tory & Non-Tory constituencies and is more or less a money sink. I’d rather see sensible governance under a moderate Starmer oversee investment in this nation frankly. 

In regards to suffering, what’s something of a whataboutism. “Are the current Ukrainians suffering as much as Holocaust victims, they’re not being genocided, that’s real suffering!”. Ultimately we still have folk going hungry in the U.K., food bank usage is on the rise, things have gotten worse under the Tories. And whether it’s general decay or higher crime, that affects everyone in this country regardless of tax bracket. 

 

Well this is the most persuasive response why I should consider being open to vote Labour imo. Can I ask, do you see any way back for the far left under the current leadership of the Labour Party? 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

‘Socialist’ is being extremely liberal with the term in regards to Labour under Starmer, especially given the clamp down on the Left Wing of the party. 
 

‘Borrowing’, as you put it, is a bit of a misnomer given it’s nothing like an individual borrowing or lending money. Furthermore, if you do want to compare it to the individual, go do you think prospers more in the general sense: the person who invests in themselves or the person who doesn’t wash, wears rags and lives in a run down hovel to be ‘fiscally responsible’? Unfettered borrowing obviously is a bad policy but as we’ve found out, so is austerity. You need to sensibly invest in your country to see it in prosper. ‘Levelling Up’ seems to be nothing more than a tool to either reward or punish Tory & Non-Tory constituencies and is more or less a money sink. I’d rather see sensible governance under a moderate Starmer oversee investment in this nation frankly. 

In regards to suffering, what’s something of a whataboutism. “Are the current Ukrainians suffering as much as Holocaust victims, they’re not being genocided, that’s real suffering!”. Ultimately we still have folk going hungry in the U.K., food bank usage is on the rise, things have gotten worse under the Tories. And whether it’s general decay or higher crime, that affects everyone in this country regardless of tax bracket. 

 

Right.

 

Appeal To Bigger Problems is a fallacy, and I know it because I've seen what I tend to focus on most here.

[Voll Blau]

4 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Well this is the most persuasive response why I should consider being open to vote Labour imo. Can I ask, do you see any way back for the far left under the current leadership of the Labour Party? 

You've only to look at the way Starmer's dealt with internal matters to see there's no chance of that under him. Says it all that Corbyn is no longer a Labour MP.

[fox_up_north]

I have to praise Starmer in clearing out some of the less realistic "radical" voices. While I think that there should always be an element of radicalism in any party, in order to provide different ideas, both sides allowed themselves to be taken over by them.

 

Now, it must go over to the Tories to do the same. Quickly. 

[Dames]

16 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Well this is the most persuasive response why I should consider being open to vote Labour imo. Can I ask, do you see any way back for the far left under the current leadership of the Labour Party? 

No. The Corbynites have been pushed right to the fringes and from all accounts are getting frustrated enough that they are going to set up their own ‘Peace and Justice’ party. 
 

Each party will have a minority of far leaning loons but you just have to compare the achievements of New Labour compared to this lot and its a no brainer. 
 

Has anywhere apart from London been ‘levelled up’? Johnson is the same as the rest, hes just more comfortable lying and the Tory party are too cowardly to do anything about it.

 

At least Starmer will resign if he gets an FPN.