The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[ozleicester]

Copying the cruel and racist previous Oz government in how to deal with refugees is not only shameful, it is breaking international law.

Think about this for one moment.... What have you experienced in you life in the past 9 years?

If you were a refugee escaping war and trying to float to Australia then your last 9 years has been, living in detention, youve broken no law but you been sent to prison camps in developing nations, youve been dehumanised and called by a number, youve been beaten, starved, lived in squalor and deprived of your basic human rights...simply because you sought safety.

Unfortunately you became a political tool, not a human being.

 

[Fazzer 7]

7 hours ago, bovril said:

They went for a while with three word slogans - get Brexit done, build back better. But obviously that was still too tricky so they've simplified it further. 

Build back better was a slogan used by many leaders in the West. It was a WEF thing wasn't it.

[CosbehFox]

Great to see Macron struggling in the parliament elections and particularly who to. 
 

 

[Sampson]

On 11/06/2022 at 00:09, LVocey said:

Yeah…just feel like immigration is just one of those things as a country we don’t get behind half as much as we should. Especially with our history of how it’s benefited us so much!

It’s plainly obvious that we are lacking the work staff usually taken up by immigrants but I’d imagine a poll of the country would put those in favour of easy immigration at less than 50%

I remember a yougov poll that said like Brexit, immigration is one of those things that those under 40s view very positively on the whole and those under 50s view very negatively on the whole. (Average median voting age is 47 for reference).

 

It’s just the division of those who were born the post-mass globalisation and mass post-industrialsation of the late 80s/early 90s and beforehand really.

 

Right now we’re still just about in the period where those born before are still the voting majority but we’re in the grey area where it’s going to change over soon. I think that’s why the country is so divided by age more than it ever has been and no longer by class.
 

The opinion will change naturally as the demographics of the country change, same with the views of the EU will naturally be more positive in 15-20 years just due to changing demographics.

 

But yes, giving higher taxes to immigrants sounds pretty awful to me. Its treating people as first or second class humans based on whether they were lucky or unlucky enough to have their parents **** in between one set of imaginary lines or not.

 

Said it before though - I’m convinced this Rwanda thing was always designed to fail from the start. And has solely been designed so that the Tories can say “look how these Lefty lawyers and campaigners are blocking our attempts to govern and solve problems” so they can start bringing that attack out as a retort whenever they’re asked about their failings as a government come the next election.

Edited 13 June 2022 by Sampson

[CosbehFox]

Another example where the Tories think they are saying something clever but pointing out their own failures

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

Threatening trade wars is a much more sensible and appropriate response to the current crisis

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, bovril said:

Threatening trade wars is a much more sensible and appropriate response to the current crisis

Although I agree with your point, whataboutery doesn’t really help the argument. 
People need to understand the need for striking and the benefits of unions. 
We know it’s inconvenient, we know it can be unnecessary at times but why do most of the populations support fall on that of the employer, the kingpin? When we are all by and large employees that are shat upon regularly? 
I think the erosion of unions in the workplace has been awful, and has really rose to prominence in the last 10-20 years. 
We’ve seen recently that large companies avoid taxation, exploit workers but we are cuckolds and lap it up, as long as we are higher up the food chain than those on minimum wage.

Weird mentality. 
You can empower workforces without damaging output of the economy.
 

I know we disagree on Brexit, but my belief was and is, if we we move away the untapped labour from employers, we will remove an element of power away from them. I still believe that but I think we now need to remove this government and instil one that forces a bit of power our way also.

 

There are always worse places than her but when it comes to pay and work/life balance, Germany has us licked and we should take note.

 

https://business-review.eu/future-of-work/which-eu-countries-have-the-longest-average-working-week-220545

[Free Falling Foxes]

On 10/06/2022 at 23:14, kingkisnorbo said:

The Rwanda move is nothing but a thinly veiled tongue in cheek way of Patel and her like to practice their prejudice. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

Not an opinion, just an observation.

 

Those fleeing the Ukraine remind me of the refugees seen in footage from the last world war; old men, women and children. Any younger men seem to be foreign nationals fleeing the country.

 

Those migrants fleeing war and persecution by coming across the channel in dingies, seem to be mostly men, younger men.

 

Just strikes me as odd.

 

[Free Falling Foxes]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Although I agree with your point, whataboutery doesn’t really help the argument. 
People need to understand the need for striking and the benefits of unions. 
We know it’s inconvenient, we know it can be unnecessary at times but why do most of the populations support fall on that of the employer, the kingpin? When we are all by and large employees that are shat upon regularly? 
I think the erosion of unions in the workplace has been awful, and has really rose to prominence in the last 10-20 years. 
We’ve seen recently that large companies avoid taxation, exploit workers but we are cuckolds and lap it up, as long as we are higher up the food chain than those on minimum wage.

Weird mentality. 
You can empower workforces without damaging output of the economy.
 

I know we disagree on Brexit, but my belief was and is, if we we move away the untapped labour from employers, we will remove an element of power away from them. I still believe that but I think we now need to remove this government and instil one that forces a bit of power our way also.

 

There are always worse places than her but when it comes to pay and work/life balance, Germany has us licked and we should take note.

 

https://business-review.eu/future-of-work/which-eu-countries-have-the-longest-average-working-week-220545

I often think of the early trade unionist who were bloody hero's in my opinion. Many faced persecution and would lose their jobs and their homes for trying to stand up to terrible work practices

 

But they persevered and eventually their numbers grew and they were able to negotiate better pay and conditions that we all (well, most) enjoy today.

It's no coincidence that when you hear of modern day exploitation, including here in Leicester, a union is absent in the workplace.

 

It seems some would like it to drift back to those non union days.

[CosbehFox]

11 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Not an opinion, just an observation.

 

Those fleeing the Ukraine remind me of the refugees seen in footage from the last world war; old men, women and children. Any younger men seem to be foreign nationals fleeing the country.

 

Those migrants fleeing war and persecution by coming across the channel in dingies, seem to be mostly men, younger men.

 

Just strikes me as odd.

 

We see migrants by dictation of what the media shows. We don’t see the families or the successful stories of integration. That doesn’t sell newspapers or bring TV audiences. That’s before the obvious point that Ukraine has called upon its men to fight if they can. The political asylum of the Middle East in a lot of cases is far more complex. So it is also dictated by the ability to afford only one family member to make the journey - the oldest male gets elected as he’s able to turn his hand to better work, females unlikely to be educated to same level and can’t speak English. 

 

For example one of the gentlemen who has avoided moving to Rwanda today is an Iranian police officer who instructed his squad not to shoot at members of the public during a large scale protest in 2019. 
 

He was under threat of arrest. His father was arrested and his son was pushed for information about his whereabouts. So he escaped to Turkey and then here on the promises of criminal. There is no legal way in the UK to claim asylum. So the way possible is to do it illegally 

Edited 13 June 2022 by Cardiff_Fox

[Free Falling Foxes]

4 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

We see migrants by dictation of what the media shows. We don’t see the families or the successful stories of integration. That doesn’t sell newspapers or bring TV audiences. That’s before the obvious point that Ukraine has called upon its men to fight if they can. The political asylum of the Middle East in a lot of cases is far more complex. 

 

For example one of the gentlemen who has avoided moving to Rwanda today is an Iranian police officer who instructed his squad not to shoot at members of the public during a large scale protest in 2019. 
 

He was under threat of arrest. His father was arrested and his son was pushed for information about his whereabouts. So he escaped to Turkey and then here on the promises of criminal. There is no legal way in the UK to claim asylum. So the way possible is to do it illegally 

I assume no female members of his family were being persecuted, nor the female members of a vast majority of those others coming across the channel?

[Strokes]

26 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I often think of the early trade unionist who were bloody hero's in my opinion. Many faced persecution and would lose their jobs and their homes for trying to stand up to terrible work practices

 

But they persevered and eventually their numbers grew and they were able to negotiate better pay and conditions that we all (well, most) enjoy today.

It's no coincidence that when you hear of modern day exploitation, including here in Leicester, a union is absent in the workplace.

 

It seems some would like it to drift back to those non union days.

We are in the non union days, in what industry are the majority of the workforce in the union?

[CosbehFox]

Just now, Free Falling Foxes said:

I assume no female members of his family were being persecuted, nor the female members of a vast majority of those others coming across the channel?

I only know the story as the BBC have told it. It mentions his family, earlier on Twitter it mentioned specifically his father https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61748033 
 

As I edited the post to say. There’s the sheer cost for Middle Eastern immigrants to travel; therefore it’s normally the male nominated in the hope it’s easier for him to get a job. Alongside the actual danger. Smugglers are also said to prioritise men. 
 

If a person is been granted asylum status, their family can join in them. The recent Afghan asylum scheme actually prioritised women and child - but that’s done on a legal basis.

[Strokes]

31 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

 

For example one of the gentlemen who has avoided moving to Rwanda today is an Iranian police officer who instructed his squad not to shoot at members of the public during a large scale protest in 2019. 
 

He was under threat of arrest. His father was arrested and his son was pushed for information about his whereabouts. So he escaped to Turkey and then here on the promises of criminal. There is no legal way in the UK to claim asylum. So the way possible is to do it illegally 

See this is where I’m not sold on asylum, that’s the guys defence. Do we know what he is charged with?

How do we know in the future our criminals won’t be able to abscond to other countries and escape justice by simply making up a story of persecution?

We could easily be harbouring a dangerous criminal.

 

He might be innocent, his version may be correct but how do we know?

[CosbehFox]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

See this is where I’m not sold on asylum, that’s the guys defence. Do we know what he is charged with?

How do we know in the future our criminals won’t be able to abscond to other countries and escape justice by simply making up a story of persecution?

We could easily be harbouring a dangerous criminal.

 

He might be innocent, his version may be correct but how do we know?

He had to provide evidence within his hearing.
There is a record of him being sentenced to five years in jail from a Iranian Military Court hearing. 
 

Hence he’s not being sent to Rwanda. 

Edited 13 June 2022 by Cardiff_Fox

[Free Falling Foxes]

3 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I only know the story as the BBC have told it. It mentions his family, earlier on Twitter it mentioned specifically his father https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61748033 
 

As I edited the post to say. There’s the sheer cost for Middle Eastern immigrants to travel; therefore it’s normally the male nominated in the hope it’s easier for him to get a job. Alongside the actual danger. Smugglers are also said to prioritise men. 
 

If a person is been granted asylum status, their family can join in them. The recent Afghan asylum scheme actually prioritised women and child - but that’s done on a legal basis.

But why travel across several safe territory's to get to the UK, including perilously dangerous trips across the water and in the back of sealed lorries?

Of course, the criminals involved with illegal migration, will paint a far rosier picture or indeed offer no alternative but the UK.

One possible benefit of the Rwanda option is it might make folk think twice before putting money in the pockets of those crooks who are wasters of life and limb.

[Strokes]

Just now, Cardiff_Fox said:

He had to provide evidence within his hearing.
There is a record of him being sentenced to five years in jail from a Iranian Military Court hearing. 

Fair enough.

I’m not doubting he has been charged and sentenced but I’m doubting how we can collect evidence to prove he or others are safe to mix in our society. I have little faith in the justice system here of collecting evidence on our own crims. I don’t have any faith in this being investigated thoroughly. 

[CosbehFox]

1 minute ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

But why travel across several safe territory's to get to the UK, including perilously dangerous trips across the water and in the back of sealed lorries?

Of course, the criminals involved with illegal migration, will paint a far rosier picture or indeed offer no alternative but the UK.

One possible benefit of the Rwanda option is it might make folk think twice before putting money in the pockets of those crooks who are wasters of life and limb.

Numerous reasons -for example,  they already have family what leave here (Iran for example is largest nationality of immigrants - links back to the overthrown of the govt in the 60s). 
The immigrant doesn’t make the decision where they get dropped off; that’s the smugglers decision. In some cases with a direct link to working for the criminal gang in some fashion. English is a language which is far more taught in the ME over other European languages. 
 

Personally, if your life is threatened, people will take the risk. The decision isn’t made lightly. I fear the Rwanda scheme will see genuine cases of asylum go to into a black market of people smuggling. The Home Office have confirmed themselves that 60 to 70 % of cases have genuine reasoning to seek support.  
 

I think we have an actual asylum policy ala Germany we can control it far better and the deportation can occur without constant legal challenge at the cost of the tax payer. 
 

 

[CosbehFox]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Fair enough.

I’m not doubting he has been charged and sentenced but I’m doubting how we can collect evidence to prove he or others are safe to mix in our society. I have little faith in the justice system here of collecting evidence on our own crims. I don’t have any faith in this being investigated thoroughly. 

I perfectly accept your point. The belief is that 60 to 70 % of cases in genuine examples of asylum but that’s no measure equal of how a person can fit into society. 
 

This first Rwanda flight is down to 8 from 60 odd. Each of those who have got out of it have had hearing - in some cases it’s failing medical examinations the cause of it. At the rate we are going, we will have constant legal challenges galore on every plane that’s arranged and the plan ain’t getting off the ground (mind the pun).  It’s another cash drain at a time when the country don’t need them. 

[Free Falling Foxes]

4 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Numerous reasons -for example,  they already have family what leave here (Iran for example is largest nationality of immigrants - links back to the overthrown of the govt in the 60s). 
The immigrant doesn’t make the decision where they get dropped off; that’s the smugglers decision. In some cases with a direct link to working for the criminal gang in some fashion. English is a language which is far more taught in the ME over other European languages. 
 

Personally, if your life is threatened, people will take the risk. The decision isn’t made lightly. I fear the Rwanda scheme will see genuine cases of asylum go to into a black market of people smuggling. The Home Office have confirmed themselves that 60 to 70 % of cases have genuine reasoning to seek support.  
 

I think we have an actual asylum policy ala Germany we can control it far better and the deportation can occur without constant legal challenge at the cost of the tax payer. 
 

 

You are not convincing me, though you make some valid points. However, there are also contradictions.

You mention they travel here because they have family here yet in your earlier post you stated successful asylum seekers can bring their families over in anycase.

Also, the fact they speak English and this is why they come, is open to debate. I work for the local authority and we spend a fortune on interpreters.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I perfectly accept your point. The belief is that 60 to 70 % of cases in genuine examples of asylum but that’s no measure equal of how a person can fit into society. 
 

This first Rwanda flight is down to 8 from 60 odd. Each of those who have got out of it have had hearing - in some cases it’s failing medical examinations the cause of it. At the rate we are going, we will have constant legal challenges galore on every plane that’s arranged and the plan ain’t getting off the ground (mind the pun).  It’s another cash drain at a time when the country don’t need them. 

Please don’t think I support the Rwandan policy, it wasn’t my point. Nor is it to attack Asylum in general, just that I feel uneasy in just accepting the story from the perceived persecuted on face value, because we don’t have cultural parity with the original host nation.

I don’t know what the answer is but I definitely air on the side of caution as default and that might be a fault on my side. I’m not sure.

[CosbehFox]

2 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

You are not convincing me, though you make some valid points. However, there are also contradictions.

You mention they travel here because they have family here yet in your earlier post you stated successful asylum seekers can bring their families over in anycase.

Also, the fact they speak English and this is why they come, is open to debate. I work for the local authority and we spend a fortune on interpreters.

I did say multiple reasons. 
 

Definition of family may be a brother or an uncle but only direct family can be brought over as part of asylum, i.e children and wife

[Free Falling Foxes]

13 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I did say multiple reasons. 
 

Definition of family may be a brother or an uncle but only direct family can be brought over as part of asylum, i.e children and wife

It doesnt help that family in many of these cultures is far in excess of what we would term family. But we digress....

[fox_up_north]

I think it boils down to the fact that English is pretty much the world's second language. We did such a damn good job of spreading our culture and making it seem amazing, no wonder everyone wants to come here.

 

Sadly, the reality is that we don't have the space or jobs for them. It would be great for all these people to come over, work in public services and pay tax but they can't - for numerous reasons.

 

With climate change, it'll only get worse. For years, I've felt like our solution should be education programmes in those countries - paying for language courses in French, Spanish, etc and showing them that England isn't all it's cracked up to be. 

[Zear0]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

I think it boils down to the fact that English is pretty much the world's second language. We did such a damn good job of spreading our culture and making it seem amazing, no wonder everyone wants to come here.

 

Sadly, the reality is that we don't have the space or jobs for them. It would be great for all these people to come over, work in public services and pay tax but they can't - for numerous reasons.

 

With climate change, it'll only get worse. For years, I've felt like our solution should be education programmes in those countries - paying for language courses in French, Spanish, etc and showing them that England isn't all it's cracked up to be. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61475720

 

There's literally record job vacancies (1.3 million) so only butted in here as I've heard this one from a few posters and not sure it's accurate. Given seasonal workers have abandoned us, economically we're desperate for workers.

 

I do agree it's a massive challenge to accommodate economic migrants given the massively overburdened affordable and social housing stock (shame we flogged it all and Boris is saying to do the same with what's left). I would try and disassociate the asylum seekers from economic migrants which seem to have merged into a single group and require very different solutions.