The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[urban.spaceman]

Just now, Daggers said:

 

 

I've got tickets but I can't afford the train.

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

The above post is the first I've been able to find about this. I googled, genuinely, to find out the reason and asked 2 people who work on trains about what they're striking over. Everything and all the comments from that head of the union were about pay - nothing I could find was about safety.

 

That's all been poorly communicated by the union. Even that bloke on the telly this morning made comments about a pay rise of 7% and there wasn't a mention of safety or job cuts. 

The head of Union very publicly mentioned the safety concerns when televised coming out of yesterdays talks. When we view things through the prism of media, we must always consider they attempt an angle that sells, builds readerships and audiences 

[Footballwipe]

6 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The head of Union very publicly mentioned the safety concerns when televised coming out of yesterdays talks. When we view things through the prism of media, we must always consider they attempt an angle that sells, builds readerships and audiences 

Absolutely. I see our local newspaper has taken a nice, balanced, incisive and detailed look into the strikes. It's refreshing that they've not tried to stoke debate, wind people up and make them misunderstand the whole reason for the strikes at all.

 

 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, surrifox said:

The rail unions want the taxpayer to fund massive infrastructure projects that could not be paid for by private investment (Crossrail, HS2) and their declared aim is to renationalise the network ( presumably hoping that the people that remember how crap that was and how poor the railways were run are a dwindling minority). This keeps the railways front and centre and is an investment by taxpayers in their industry and future.

The railways in Scotland are back in public ownership and the strikes there are the worst in the country. 

Point being this is a massive F*** you to the people who rely on the railways to get around to their places of work and without whom the railways would employ far fewer staff. So the argument that this is some crusade against income inequality at the top  is a somewhat strained one.

Numerous of the existing rail franchises are already in public ownership (Intercity EastCoast, Northern and South Eastern).
 

These were all subject to massive loans granted by the DfT which the private companies couldn’t pay back whilst all to the background of huge dividend payments to shareholders and directors. So the government took them back under their wings. There has all been rumours of Avanti West Coast in the same difficulties. 
 

There is a major proposed cut of the rail engineer and inspectors whom do zero public facing and are on shifts inspecting rails; keeping the service running in effect.

[urban.spaceman]

MP salary in 2010: £65,738

MP salary in 2022: £82,144

 

That's before you even get to the hundreds of thousands claimed in expenses.

[Lionator]

I wasn't around in the 70's and 80's so I may be overlooking the violence side of things, but how can so many people in this country side with throwing away your workers rights and having opportunity to earn a decent living? Joining a union was the best thing I've done since starting work, they've had my back over several greivences in the workplace which has led me to be able to thrive in my role. Also I'd rather support political parties who are supposedly in the 'pockets of the union's' (aka the workers) than those who are in the pockets of people currently funding the destruction of Ukraine. 

[kenny]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The head of Union very publicly mentioned the safety concerns when televised coming out of yesterdays talks. When we view things through the prism of media, we must always consider they attempt an angle that sells, builds readerships and audiences 

The safety line is to prevent the reduction of staff numbers.

 

The only future for the railway and this country in general is robotics, AI and automation. The railways need to be modernised to reduce the requirements for so many staff.

[rachhere]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

The safety line is to prevent the reduction of staff numbers.

 

The only future for the railway and this country in general is robotics, AI and automation. The railways need to be modernised to reduce the requirements for so many staff.

Sure. But until that is in place... 

[kenny]

3 minutes ago, rachhere said:

Sure. But until that is in place... 

We have the technology for driverless trains and presumably automated signalling, defect inspections etc.

 

Why they aren't used is anyones guess, but the Unions would be against anything that results in a loss of jobs. (Paying members)

[rachhere]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

We have the technology for driverless trains and presumably automated signalling, defect inspections etc.

 

Why they aren't used is anyones guess, but the Unions would be against anything that results in a loss of jobs. (Paying members)

That sounds like something which would take a good 30 years to implement. In the meantime we need to make sure the staff are in place to ensure passenger safety. From what I have read so far about the proposed cuts in staffing, this would be compromised. 

[kenny]

Just now, rachhere said:

That sounds like something which would take a good 30 years to implement. In the meantime we need to make sure the staff are in place to ensure passenger safety. From what I have read so far about the proposed cuts in staffing, this would be compromised. 

I think some of the strike action is to ensure that any future job losses cannot occur. IE someone leaves and isn't needed to be replaced, but the guarantees have to be in place to ensure they are.

 

It really isn't 30 years away, the DLR and the Victoria line are already 'driverless' though you have someone who has to open the doors.

 

There are driverless train systems in use all around the world already.

[adam]

25 minutes ago, kenny said:

We have the technology for driverless trains and presumably automated signalling, defect inspections etc.

 

Why they aren't used is anyones guess, but the Unions would be against anything that results in a loss of jobs. (Paying members)

I dont think driverless trains on every line would  be about for another 50 years. It would cost billions to upgrade the whole of the network. 

Edited 21 June 2022 by adam

[rachhere]

9 minutes ago, adam said:

I dont think driverless trains on every line would  be about for another 50 years. It would cost billions to upgrade the whole of the network. 

Exactly. The train network is so much more than just the big intercity routes. 

[BKLFox]

51 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

MP salary in 2010: £65,738

MP salary in 2022: £82,144

 

That's before you even get to the hundreds of thousands claimed in expenses.

& none declared consultancy work

[BKLFox]

4 hours ago, Daggers said:

 

This.
 

Isn’t.

 

About.

 

Train.

 

Drivers.

 

And.

 

Their.

 

Salaries.

well 33% of it is otherwise it would be 50% about job security & 50% safty concerns no?

[Fazzer 7]

That Mick Lynch bloke leader of the RMT.  He’s a real militant like Scargill was. Does he have his members interests at heart or does he just want a scrap with the government.  

[Free Falling Foxes]

10 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

That Mick Lynch bloke leader of the RMT.  He’s a real militant like Scargill was. Does he have his members interests at heart or does he just want a scrap with the government.  

I remember Scargill coming on our screens trying to tell the nation that the government had a hit list of pits they wanted to shut down.

Yeah right, I'm sure they have Mr. Scargill.

Hang on.........transpires he was bang on.

Militant in some eyes, absolutely the interests of his members and their communities in others.

 

Edited 21 June 2022 by Free Falling Foxes

[adam]

 

[foxile5]

This'll only get worse with reference to the strikes.

 

Johnson will be seeing his chance to repeal Thatcher and fight the proles.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

The safety line is to prevent the reduction of staff numbers.

 

The only future for the railway and this country in general is robotics, AI and automation. The railways need to be modernised to reduce the requirements for so many staff.

They have proposed cutting thousands of jobs, whilst we are severely understaffed, which will in return put pressure on the rest of the workforce. 
 

Most of us are realistic where the modernisation aspects are going, but we’re decades away from that, and it can only really be done on certain lines. Out in Oakham we still rely on multiple 1.5v batteries to power the circuits, believe me full automy is a tad too unrealistic atm!

 

Jobs being cut in maintenance will shrink our teams down, making it even harder to do work, the pressure of responding to a fault, reading the diagrams to find out where to access the track, ensuring you’ve got the correct line block so a train doesn’t clear you up (get the block wrong and you’re dead or sacked), get the correct tools together, drive to the location of the fault, investigate the fault, try to fix it and then fully test it afterwards (again, get it wrong and you’re sacked or in court). Atm we do that in a 3 man team, they want to make it a 2 man team, or give you a random untrained labourer on occasions, we’ll spend half our tine ensuring this random person is safe and not going to get themselves killed, it’s beggars belief. They also want to make our intervals for maintaining things less, say it’s currently every 3 months, they want to make it every 12 months, this is how previous train disasters occurred. 
 

The guards and ticket office staff are also under threat as you say, but with less guards, more stuff happens on trains, sexual assaults, violence, threats etc. Without ticket office staff, older people probably couldn’t buy a ticket, but I do feel that these are the staff most at risk, I just feel like we’re rushing into closing them all down. I was at Brum at the weekend, ticket machines were down and the queue for the ticket office was huge. They will go eventually though, think we’ve accepted that sadly. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

2 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

This'll only get worse with reference to the strikes.

 

Johnson will be seeing his chance to repeal Thatcher and fight the proles.

Sadly I fear you are right. Think this will go on for a while. 
 

For what it’s worth, I think most of us would accept 4% payrise and no compulsory redundancies, as with the ageing workforce, they’ll have enough going in the next 5 years anyway to shrink the workforce whilst slightly ‘modernising’ the railway, and letting the rest of us gain the competencies and experience needed to step up. 

[Daggers]

The only paper that matters.

 

Edited 21 June 2022 by Daggers

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, Footballwipe said:

Absolutely. I see our local newspaper has taken a nice, balanced, incisive and detailed look into the strikes. It's refreshing that they've not tried to stoke debate, wind people up and make them misunderstand the whole reason for the strikes at all.

 

 

That's a bit like saying the average airline pilot is on 100 grand a year, the average railway wage is about 33 grand and besides, train drivers arn't on strike(well not this one anyway), they're in a different union.

[kenny]

21 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Sadly I fear you are right. Think this will go on for a while. 
 

For what it’s worth, I think most of us would accept 4% payrise and no compulsory redundancies, as with the ageing workforce, they’ll have enough going in the next 5 years anyway to shrink the workforce whilst slightly ‘modernising’ the railway, and letting the rest of us gain the competencies and experience needed to step up. 

I wouldn't take issue with 4%, but I doubt that the RMT will be satisfied with that.

[kenny]

26 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

They have proposed cutting thousands of jobs, whilst we are severely understaffed, which will in return put pressure on the rest of the workforce. 
 

Most of us are realistic where the modernisation aspects are going, but we’re decades away from that, and it can only really be done on certain lines. Out in Oakham we still rely on multiple 1.5v batteries to power the circuits, believe me full automy is a tad too unrealistic atm!

 

Jobs being cut in maintenance will shrink our teams down, making it even harder to do work, the pressure of responding to a fault, reading the diagrams to find out where to access the track, ensuring you’ve got the correct line block so a train doesn’t clear you up (get the block wrong and you’re dead or sacked), get the correct tools together, drive to the location of the fault, investigate the fault, try to fix it and then fully test it afterwards (again, get it wrong and you’re sacked or in court). Atm we do that in a 3 man team, they want to make it a 2 man team, or give you a random untrained labourer on occasions, we’ll spend half our tine ensuring this random person is safe and not going to get themselves killed, it’s beggars belief. They also want to make our intervals for maintaining things less, say it’s currently every 3 months, they want to make it every 12 months, this is how previous train disasters occurred. 
 

The guards and ticket office staff are also under threat as you say, but with less guards, more stuff happens on trains, sexual assaults, violence, threats etc. Without ticket office staff, older people probably couldn’t buy a ticket, but I do feel that these are the staff most at risk, I just feel like we’re rushing into closing them all down. I was at Brum at the weekend, ticket machines were down and the queue for the ticket office was huge. They will go eventually though, think we’ve accepted that sadly. 

I don't disagree with much of what you say.

 

However, the technology is there, that we haven't taken it up yet is a massive failing of the country. Likewise the ticket machines being difficult to use or not working at all doesn't mean that they aren't the way it should be done, its just that its been implemented badly in the first place.