Premier League 2022/23 Thread

[kingkisnorbo]

Just now, Fox92 said:

Pep is just as bad but nobody mentions it.

It’s because people seem obsessed with letting everyone know how awful they think Klopp and Liverpool are. If their outrage was fair than they’d have been on here every week when managers up and down the country act exactly the same. 

[ARTY_FOX]

12 minutes ago, kingkisnorbo said:

Pep did it too. Not a word on him though? Or even a reprimand? 

And he should also be punished. Klopps entire career has been this reaction to anything that doesn't go his way.

[Super_horns]

Apparently on MOTD they said the Man City goal would have been ruled  out for a foul on  Alisson anyway .

[davieG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63281933

 

Jurgen Klopp red card among incidents prompting referee charity to call for inquiry into managers

Jurgen Klopp seething at the assistant referee in the Liverpool v Manchester City game.
Jurgen Klopp's reaction to the assistant referee in Liverpool's win over Manchester City earned him a red card
A leading referees' charity has called for an inquiry into the touchline behaviour of managers after ugly scenes at several Premier League matches.

Jurgen Klopp's red card for berating a referee's assistant during Liverpool's win over Manchester City was among a number of flashpoint incidents.

It came on a weekend where Merseyside Youth League games were postponed amid ongoing issues with referee abuse.

"People mimic what they see on TV," said Ref Support UK CEO Martin Cassidy.

"For years, we have said the dissension towards referees comes from the top down as well as the bottom up.

"When you see world recognised figures like Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola behaving like that, it is then replicated by people in youth football and perpetuates the idea that it is OK to do it."

The Football Association is looking into incidents on and off the pitch at Anfield as well as Manchester United players surrounding referee Craig Pawson at Old Trafford in their draw against Newcastle.

Klopp apologised in his post-match comments but insisted his behaviour had been borne out of frustration at what he saw as the officials' failure to award Liverpool a free-kick for a challenge on Mohamed Salah.

"Something snapped in that situation, I'm not proud of that - I deserved a red card, and the way I looked in this moment is not right," the German, 55, admitted.

However, Cassidy, a Liverpool fan, said apologies would not suffice and that the League Managers Association must encourage its members to behave more respectfully.

"As far as I'm aware, the LMA has never put out a statement condemning this behaviour - is there a code of conduct? They have to take responsibility," he said.

"The time has come to have some form of inquiry into the behaviour of people on the touchline - it goes on and on and I don't think people understand the ramifications it has at grassroots level."

BBC Sport has approached the LMA for comment.

 

 

While Klopp's tirade towards the official running the line at Anfield was the highest-profile instance of dissent, it was by no means alone on a day packed with controversy.

His counterpart Pep Guardiola confronted Anthony Taylor when the referee, invited to consult his pitchside monitor by the video assistant referee, disallowed a City goal for a foul by Erling Haaland.

United players, led by Bruno Fernandes, remonstrate with referee Craig Pawson during the draw with Newcastle

Elsewhere, Manchester United players angrily surrounded referee Craig Pawson for disallowing a Cristiano Ronaldo goal in their stalemate with Newcastle United.

There were similar scenes from West Ham's players at Southampton, castigating Peter Bankes for not ruling out Saints' opener, while Hammers boss David Moyes said the VAR needed "to go to Specsavers".

And Chris Kavanagh was also crowded by players from both sides at Elland Road in another game heavy on VAR intervention as Premier League leaders Arsenal beat Leeds.

 

 

The flashpoints are pictured below - and have your say on the issue.

Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola and Rodri confront referee Anthony Taylor during the defeat at Liverpool Anthony Taylor makes his way through a crowd of Manchester City players and coaches to inspect the VAR monitor TV pictures showed players, managers and fans giving referee Anthony Taylor their thoughts as he watched the VAR replay Referee Craig Pawson is in the middle of a scrum of protesting Manchester United players Virtually the entire outfield Manchester United line-up protested the decision to referee Craig Pawson United boss Erik ten Hag declined to comment on Pawson's performance in his post-match press conference West Ham players surround referee Peter Bankes complaining about Southampton's opening goal in the 1-1 draw Referee Chris Kavanagh endured the ire of both teams in Leeds' defeat by Arsenal at Elland Road...

 

 

'Yellow cards for abuse the solution' - Lineker
BBC Sport presenter Gary Lineker believes the problem of referee abuse in the professional game can be solved by the implementation of stricter punishments.

"I think you stop that by issuing yellow cards for any form of abuse whatsoever and then make it red straight after," Lineker, who was famously never booked during his playing career, told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"It'll be carnage for a few weeks, but they'll learn like they do, like they did with kicking players, you can't do it anymore. It would work, I'm convinced of that."

 

 

 

 

[davieG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61425471

 

Referee abuse: FA issued 380 bans for grassroots match official attacks last season

 

 

Bans were handed to 380 players and coaches for attacking or threatening referees and match officials in English grassroots football last season.

Football Association disciplinary reports for the 2021-22 season highlight a catalogue of abuse against officials in youth and adult football.

The Merseyside Youth Football League has cancelled all fixtures for this weekend in protest at "multiple incidents of inappropriate and threatening behaviour" towards officials.

It said "we cannot allow this toxic behaviour to continue to escalate".

Keith Radcliffe, a senior referee in the league, told BBC Radio 5 Live the issue "seems to be across the whole of the country" and the the league had decided to "take a stance" in postponing more than 70 games. There are 1,100 leagues and 18,500 clubs across all ages in England.

Last weekend, a referee suffered "significant" injuries when he was attacked while officiating a game between Platt Bridge FC and Wigan Rose FC on Sunday, and Greater Manchester Police (GMP) arrested a 24-year-old.

Radcliffe added: "It's parents, managers, coaches. They constantly bombard officials with a must-win attitude and say 'you've got it wrong'. They all want to have the next Messi and Ronaldo, because they couldn't be.

"A national rule has to come in to say if any misdemeanours happen, they are banned for three or four weeks, never mind a week.

"It can't continue. If it doesn't stop, referees are actually getting physically assaulted and there is going to be a national strike."

[BKLFox]

@davieG was coming on to post this as i seemed to have started the debate during the game with a lot of posters wishing Rodgers showed the same passion but i particularly like Martin Cassidy's quote of ""Passion" is the currency fools use to justify Ref abuse"
I'm happy Rodgers doesn't instruct his players to swarm the referee after every decision, if that makes me a bad fan then so be it.

I said yesterday as i had to go through 3yrs of my lad getting abused whilst he ref'd i'd be in support of a national strike, some of the things i have seen during U7->U16s football beggar's belief

[Fox92]

There is to much emphasis on referees. People around me at the ground are straight to blaming the referee instead of looking at our own players. Personally all I want to see is consistency and no bias to bigger clubs but it is a tough job.

 

Happens every week. People mention the referee before the game, why bother?

 

They are over analysised now but we'll never get past players and managers screaming at them and fans singing at them.

[OntarioFox]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63281933

 

Jurgen Klopp red card among incidents prompting referee charity to call for inquiry into managers

Jurgen Klopp seething at the assistant referee in the Liverpool v Manchester City game.
Jurgen Klopp's reaction to the assistant referee in Liverpool's win over Manchester City earned him a red card
A leading referees' charity has called for an inquiry into the touchline behaviour of managers after ugly scenes at several Premier League matches.

Jurgen Klopp's red card for berating a referee's assistant during Liverpool's win over Manchester City was among a number of flashpoint incidents.

It came on a weekend where Merseyside Youth League games were postponed amid ongoing issues with referee abuse.

"People mimic what they see on TV," said Ref Support UK CEO Martin Cassidy.

"For years, we have said the dissension towards referees comes from the top down as well as the bottom up.

"When you see world recognised figures like Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola behaving like that, it is then replicated by people in youth football and perpetuates the idea that it is OK to do it."

The Football Association is looking into incidents on and off the pitch at Anfield as well as Manchester United players surrounding referee Craig Pawson at Old Trafford in their draw against Newcastle.

Klopp apologised in his post-match comments but insisted his behaviour had been borne out of frustration at what he saw as the officials' failure to award Liverpool a free-kick for a challenge on Mohamed Salah.

"Something snapped in that situation, I'm not proud of that - I deserved a red card, and the way I looked in this moment is not right," the German, 55, admitted.

However, Cassidy, a Liverpool fan, said apologies would not suffice and that the League Managers Association must encourage its members to behave more respectfully.

"As far as I'm aware, the LMA has never put out a statement condemning this behaviour - is there a code of conduct? They have to take responsibility," he said.

"The time has come to have some form of inquiry into the behaviour of people on the touchline - it goes on and on and I don't think people understand the ramifications it has at grassroots level."

BBC Sport has approached the LMA for comment.

 

 

While Klopp's tirade towards the official running the line at Anfield was the highest-profile instance of dissent, it was by no means alone on a day packed with controversy.

His counterpart Pep Guardiola confronted Anthony Taylor when the referee, invited to consult his pitchside monitor by the video assistant referee, disallowed a City goal for a foul by Erling Haaland.

United players, led by Bruno Fernandes, remonstrate with referee Craig Pawson during the draw with Newcastle

Elsewhere, Manchester United players angrily surrounded referee Craig Pawson for disallowing a Cristiano Ronaldo goal in their stalemate with Newcastle United.

There were similar scenes from West Ham's players at Southampton, castigating Peter Bankes for not ruling out Saints' opener, while Hammers boss David Moyes said the VAR needed "to go to Specsavers".

And Chris Kavanagh was also crowded by players from both sides at Elland Road in another game heavy on VAR intervention as Premier League leaders Arsenal beat Leeds.

 

 

The flashpoints are pictured below - and have your say on the issue.

Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola and Rodri confront referee Anthony Taylor during the defeat at Liverpool Anthony Taylor makes his way through a crowd of Manchester City players and coaches to inspect the VAR monitor TV pictures showed players, managers and fans giving referee Anthony Taylor their thoughts as he watched the VAR replay Referee Craig Pawson is in the middle of a scrum of protesting Manchester United players Virtually the entire outfield Manchester United line-up protested the decision to referee Craig Pawson United boss Erik ten Hag declined to comment on Pawson's performance in his post-match press conference West Ham players surround referee Peter Bankes complaining about Southampton's opening goal in the 1-1 draw Referee Chris Kavanagh endured the ire of both teams in Leeds' defeat by Arsenal at Elland Road...

 

 

'Yellow cards for abuse the solution' - Lineker
BBC Sport presenter Gary Lineker believes the problem of referee abuse in the professional game can be solved by the implementation of stricter punishments.

"I think you stop that by issuing yellow cards for any form of abuse whatsoever and then make it red straight after," Lineker, who was famously never booked during his playing career, told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"It'll be carnage for a few weeks, but they'll learn like they do, like they did with kicking players, you can't do it anymore. It would work, I'm convinced of that."

 

 

 

 

I am not for one second condoning abuse of referees, not least by those in positions of influence like Klopp.

However, the officials should not be immune to criticism, and I think a lot more transparency is needed on their part. If the likes of Sky are now able to haul managers out of their dressing room for half time interviews, they should absolutely be able to interview referees, or mic them up during matches like they do in other sports.

Referees act as a closed shop, and you have to wait for them to retire to get even the slightest insight into just what their line of reasoning was for certain controversial decisions. If the rest of the game has turned into a circus of scrutiny and accountability, they should have an obligation to face questions. They surely have nothing to hide... right?

[StanSP]

Just watched some highlights from Saturday's game.

 

Why is more not said of the shameful theatrics of Bamford? Gabriel kicks out but doesn't make contact with Bamford  

[GoonerJeeves]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Just watched some highlights from Saturday's game.

 

Why is more not said of the shameful theatrics of Bamford? Gabriel kicks out but doesn't make contact with Bamford  

The whole incident reminded me of the pantomime act by Lehmann and Drogba.

 

 

[Footballwipe]

22 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

Referees act as a closed shop, and you have to wait for them to retire to get even the slightest insight into just what their line of reasoning was for certain controversial decisions. If the rest of the game has turned into a circus of scrutiny and accountability, they should have an obligation to face questions. They surely have nothing to hide... right?

I've thought this, and equally I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but it doesn't really matter when you think about it.

 

The vile, spiteful abuse towards officials is going to happen no matter what. Even if they come out to rationalise their decisions and processes they'd get abuse, get accused of bias and pulled apart on REF WATCH.

 

Our whole culture is ingrained to blame the referee, to provoke debate and shift blame. That won't stop if they come out and explain things, so why bother? It genuinely will not reduce any level of vitriol.

 

Referees are human. They are human. They get one look at things and make a call. They work honestly (though you conspiracy theorists love to think otherwise) and do their best. But they make mistakes. Of course they do. They're fkin human, not robots. If elite referees make mistakes, imagine lower leagues and Sunday leagues. We demand perfection from our referees who get paid about £100k a year to officiate a multi-bullion pound sport, but think it's fine when players earning millions shoot off target, slice a shot or make a wayward pass.

 

Football fans are a bunch of whiny hypocrites when it comes to referees and you absolutely get what you deserve. If the standard of refereeing is going down, as is claimed so often, maybe it's because people cba with the abuse so don't bother.

 

I said this in another thread a few weeks ago, but if any level of football died due to a lack of referees the blame lies squarely on football fans and the toxic culture of shifting blame onto humans who always have, and always will make mistakes.

[filbertway]

Very little sympathy for top flight refs. They've got the power to book players for crowding or arguing with them. 

 

Anybody that physically threatens a referee from grass roots up to the very top should receive a lengthy ban. People shouldn't ever feel unsafe when going to watch, play or officiate a match.

 

A little bif of verbals, they have the power to send players off. 99.999999% of the time, the incident is forgotten and everyone has moved on by the end of the game. People might discuss it, but any feeling of injustice and anger is generally gone.

 

Premier league refs are mollycoddled beyond belief as it is. They don't need some charity looking out for them.

[jammie82uk]

Why don’t referees enforce what rules they have already? 
 

Dissent towards match officials

Yellow cards will be issued to players who:

• Show visibly disrespectful behaviour to any match official
• Respond aggressively to decisions
• Confront an official face to face
• Run towards an official to contest a decision

Offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures towards match officials

Red cards will be issued to players who confront match officials and use offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures towards them.

Physical contact with match officials

• A yellow card for physical contact with any match official in a non-aggressive manner (e.g. an inquisitive approach to grab the official’s attention).
• A red card for physical contact with match officials in an aggressive or confrontational manner.

Surrounding match officials

• A yellow card for at least one player when two or more from a team surround a match official.
• The FA will continue to sanction teams when they surround match officials.

Conduct in the technical area 

• The requirements of the Technical Area Code of Conduct will be more rigorously enforced for players and club staff.
• Additionally, match officials will be required to retain professional detachment from players and club staff at all times.

[ParkerPen]

I'd be a terrible ref (at any level) but one thing i would be awesome at is booking or sending off gobby players 

[davieG]

When did people even start noting who the ref was? I don't remember ever knowing hearing anything about refs in the past.

 

Probably all started with TV+endless replays of incidents and gobby ex-player pundits talking like they are experts yet condoning many of the fouls we see and then complaining about them when they're looking for further attention.

[BakerLCFC]

Nottingham Forest boss Steve Cooper says tweet before Wolves defeat not 'helpful' https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63281920

[BKLFox]

Why there is a reluctance by Footballing bodies to not just go ok we go down the Rugby route i don't know.
VAR could learn a thing or 2 from TMO about what are we actually look at/for & the interaction between them & ref, if a ref says on field decision is 'x' the TMO has to provide compelling evidents to over turn it - no well i interpret it like this so i think you should change your mind it has to be compelling , refs are mic'd so heared on tv (pay your fiver at the ground for a receiver unit to hear in the stadium), only captains to speak to the ref, any back chat at all is punished depending on what's said but at the very least a turn over of free kick or an advancement in where a free kick is taken from & obviously a yellow card issued.

It just makes sense to me

[davieG]

Why Klopp lost his cool

 

No foul say's the Assistant Ref

 

 

 

Fair enough but does he tell his own players off  when they do similar fouls? 

[Super_horns]

I am not sure after match interviews with refs would work totally though even if we get some understanding of a decision as I don’t think a team who feels they have been wronged will feel any better as a result?

 

But I do agree refs can be braver in booking and sending players off for dissent .

 

Had a player done what Klopp would they have been sent off ?

[dmayne7]

1 hour ago, jammie82uk said:

Why don’t referees enforce what rules they have already? 
 

Dissent towards match officials

Yellow cards will be issued to players who:

• Show visibly disrespectful behaviour to any match official
• Respond aggressively to decisions
• Confront an official face to face
• Run towards an official to contest a decision

Offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures towards match officials

Red cards will be issued to players who confront match officials and use offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures towards them.

Physical contact with match officials

• A yellow card for physical contact with any match official in a non-aggressive manner (e.g. an inquisitive approach to grab the official’s attention).
• A red card for physical contact with match officials in an aggressive or confrontational manner.

Surrounding match officials

• A yellow card for at least one player when two or more from a team surround a match official.
• The FA will continue to sanction teams when they surround match officials.

Conduct in the technical area 

• The requirements of the Technical Area Code of Conduct will be more rigorously enforced for players and club staff.
• Additionally, match officials will be required to retain professional detachment from players and club staff at all times.

It's pathetic isn't it. The idea that by enforcing it we'd end up with games abandoned due to red cards... But if that did happen for a couple of games it would soon sort it out and the change would quickly become engrained. Sympathy for the abuse they get to an extent but they don't help themselves by being so spineless.

 

My view has always been that they should be dishing out cards left, right and centre for dissent. Now I think the sensible way to go is to allow the initial outburst, swearing (if not addressed to the officials) as the emotions are out of the way then. But if there's any hint of arguing or continued dissent, a booking. If they still don't stop, warn them again, and then a second yellow. You're allowing venting of frustrations but not putting up with any crap. The fact that Rugby players can keep their cool with how ridiculously intense it is but football players can't, shows you it's purely behavioural

[sm1]

2 hours ago, filbertway said:

Very little sympathy for top flight refs. They've got the power to book players for crowding or arguing with them. 

 

Anybody that physically threatens a referee from grass roots up to the very top should receive a lengthy ban. People shouldn't ever feel unsafe when going to watch, play or officiate a match.

 

A little bif of verbals, they have the power to send players off. 99.999999% of the time, the incident is forgotten and everyone has moved on by the end of the game. People might discuss it, but any feeling of injustice and anger is generally gone.

 

Premier league refs are mollycoddled beyond belief as it is. They don't need some charity looking out for them.

Exactly, refs are the single most powerful people on the pitch, more powerful then players, coaches and managers. If they're not happy with the treatment, use your power or STFU. Personally i think the standard of refereeing is pretty decent and believe we shouldn't have VAR. Let the refs do their job and if that means sending players off, so be it. I remember about 10 years ago when Tigers played Northampton in the Premiership Final at Twickenham, most important game of the season. Northampton captain gave the ref abuse, straight red card in the 1st 30mins, no shit taken. His team lost, he learnt his lesson. This talk of refs being harassed has been going on since the Fergie days. Utd were the worse at it and the refs let them get away with it, because they didn't have the balls to stop it. 20-30yrs later nothings changed and we're having the same conversations because refs refuse to do anything about it.

Edited 17 October 2022 by sm1

[Weller Wing]

1 hour ago, ParkerPen said:

I'd be a terrible ref (at any level) but one thing i would be awesome at is booking or sending off gobby players 

I'd be a terrible official. 

 

If I'd have been running that line yesterday and Klopp did that to me, I'd have definitely tw#ted the c%@t 😄😄

[jammie82uk]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

VAR could learn a thing or 2 from TMO about what are we actually look at/for & the interaction between them & ref

I would be interested in who leads the conversation when the on field ref looks at the screen, does the on field ref ask for different angles on the incident or is he just happy with what’s provided 

 

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

refs are mic'd so heared on tv

I agree and Technically they are already mic’d as the commentators can hear the conversation between refs and the VAR official 

 

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

only captains to speak to the ref

I also agree with this but I would allow the players involved in the incident to be present as well

[BKLFox]

28 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

I would be interested in who leads the conversation when the on field ref looks at the screen, does the on field ref ask for different angles on the incident or is he just happy with what’s provided 

 

I agree and Technically they are already mic’d as the commentators can hear the conversation between refs and the VAR official 

 

I also agree with this but I would allow the players involved in the incident to be present as well

Its lead by the on field official & by his wording.
Obviously scenario's are different within Rugby but it just seems so straight forward, like when i say depends on wording for some things if he said "On field decision is Try" then unless something glaring missed then its going to be a Try no ifs or buts because the refs said On field decision x, now that could be used for Goals & probably something along those lines is with every goal checked but if the ref said its a Goal for me then unless something glaring missed in the build up & i mean glaring not a feint touch of the hand or slight tug of a shirt or some other bullshit then its going to be a goal.

The other thing i like is the foul decisions that relate to Yellow/Reds again slightly different as Yellow means more in Rugby but if its looking like a card you get the Ref, linesman closest to incident & TMO all in a 3 way & you hear them talk through their decision making starting at the bottom, is it a foul 1st, ok was it reckless yes/no etc then working up in stages until they make a call & because you hear it you usually agree with their outcome on why they reached it, it sounds long winded but they go through it very quickly.
 

Another thing i like & although it was against Tigers yesterday the TMO steadily relays information to the ref as things are happening even thou the game doesn't stop unless the TMO says i think you need to look at this, again there are differences in what your looking at in Rugby, but on the game yesterday the TMO let the ref know the players name/number that committed 2 high tackle challenges on the bounce which i thought its fair if he does it again then your looking at giving him a yellow...ok football slightly different as usually you can see who commits the foul but if that sort of detail is relayed during play so VAR says just want to say that was Henderson again its a reminder to the Ref that 1 player is continually fouling but each 1 not enough to warrent a Yellow but collectively you might want to do something on his next foul, how many times have we shouted at the telly or the pitch how many times he going to get away with it ref, i just think its a good use.

 

I might even be in favour of the sin bins for yellows in Football i guess there are usually more Yellows in Football than Rugby but would it stop the "professional fouls" for instance or maybe the orange card is brought in also for Bins

 

I know it all sounds like it will get in the way but 9/10 incidents involving the TMO are done & dusted quicker than any VAR decision all the while the spectator is watching & hearing what the officials are watching & saying, which i think is the main crux of the issue we currently don't know what they look at or what they say to each other to get to a decision.
 

[Wymsey]

Have gone off Klopp more after his embarrassing sending off.

Just shows he thinks he's holier than thou.