Covid Roll Call

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

This is what people are doing.  Treating it like flu - if you don't feel well enough to go to work, you don't, but if it's minor, you do. Whether it's correct to treat covid like we traditionally do flu, or whether we should treat flu more like we treated covid, is a different question.

Personally I would hypothesise that Covid is still more dangerous than your garden variety flu, even the Omicron variant, but I'd have to dig for some numbers to be sure. I maintain that the commentary on this thread proves that at least some aren't taking it seriously enough.

 

The second point here is interesting, as were earlier comments. I'm not sure of the sick pay legislation that exists in the UK right now, but going into work with any kind of airborne communicable disease that could be debilitating is the height of stupidity IMO - it will invariably cost more productivity than it saves and if bosses don't get that they really should look to pull their heads out of their rear ends. It isn't the US where the worker gets shafted all day every day, after all.

Edited 8 January 2023 by leicsmac

[dsr-burnley]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Personally I would hypothesise that Covid is still more dangerous than your garden variety flu, even the Omicron variant, but I'd have to dig for some numbers to be sure. I maintain that the commentary on this thread proves that at least some aren't taking it seriously enough.

 

The second point here is interesting, as were earlier comments. I'm not sure of the sick pay legislation that exists in the UK right now, but going into work with any kind of airborne communicable disease that could be debilitating is the height of stupidity IMO - it will invariably cost more productivity than it saves and if bosses don't get that they really should look to pull their heads out of their rear ends. It isn't the US where the worker gets shafted all day every day, after all.

Number of people who died because of flu and pneumonia in the first 4 weeks of December - 2,393.  Number who died because of covid = 986.  These figures come from death certificates.  So far as I know, there is still at least as much covid about as flu, though as there is no readily available test for flu, it's hard to say.  Obviously it swings back and forth week to week, but covid is seldom above flu/pneumonia nowadays.  For the time being, anyway.

 

As far as bosses are concerned, they also consider the number of people who (given the availability of full sick pay for a week or two on self-certification) would take it without being ill.  

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

Edited 8 January 2023 by dsr-burnley

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Number of people who died because of flu and pneumonia in the first 4 weeks of December - 2,393.  Number who died because of covid = 986.  These figures come from death certificates.  So far as I know, there is still at least as much covid about as flu, though as there is no readily available test for flu, it's hard to say.  Obviously it swings back and forth week to week, but covid is seldom above flu/pneumonia nowadays.  For the time being, anyway.

 

As far as bosses are concerned, they also consider the number of people who (given the availability of full sick pay for a week or two on self-certification) would take it without being ill.  

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

Fair enough, happy to take those figures at face value.

 

WRT the bosses, perhaps they should figure that a few people playing the system is (in all likelihood) still better for productivity than ill people coming into work and likely messing things up for both themselves and possibly their colleagues.

[Alf Bentley]

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

How do you know you've never had flu?  Have you tested for flu like you tested for covid?  Don't believe any guff about "flu can't be mistaken for anything else because it's always horrible" - just like colds and covid, you can get a mild dose or you can get a severe one.

 

I'm afraid your precautions against spreading the disease would have done little good.  By the time you had had the disease symptomless for a few days and minor symptoms for 2-3 days, the highly infectious period would be over.  Remember that's how the virus spread so very very fast - people who had covid but didn't yet know it, were the biggest spreaders.

 

You're right that I don't know I've never had flu (or countless other afflictions). In my earlier post, I wrote that I'd not had it "to my knowledge". I just shortened it in that post.

I've never self-tested for flu and don't know if that's even possible, as I said in an earlier post. I've been to the GP occasionally over the years with particularly bad chest infections that weren't flu - but maybe I've had the odd mild dose, as you say.

 

Re. spreading Covid: I believe the official advice is that it's mainly infectious in the first 5 days, less infectious between 5 and 10 days, but still infectious for some.

If you have symptom-free Covid, I suppose there's little you can do - except perhaps test before visiting anyone particularly vulnerable.

In this case, I didn't test until I'd had minor symptoms for 2-3 days. I'd had identical symptoms twice in Nov/Dec, had tested immediately and been negative both times so got complacent and this time only tested when it got slightly worse.

I probably got infected either at the Boxing Day match or the next day from my daughter socialising (though she's remained negative) so I probably tested positive on day 3 or 4 - not ideal, but not necessarily useless. It's a lesson learned, though - testing as soon as I get even mild symptoms would be better - albeit not perfect, for the reasons of symptom-free spread that you mention.

 

Don't be "afraid" or otherwise regretful about making your points, though. I'm sure making them introduced a little joy into your life, albeit in a slightly mean-spirited way.....so that's a positive, isn't it? 

[Lionator]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Personally I would hypothesise that Covid is still more dangerous than your garden variety flu, even the Omicron variant, but I'd have to dig for some numbers to be sure. I maintain that the commentary on this thread proves that at least some aren't taking it seriously enough.

 

The second point here is interesting, as were earlier comments. I'm not sure of the sick pay legislation that exists in the UK right now, but going into work with any kind of airborne communicable disease that could be debilitating is the height of stupidity IMO - it will invariably cost more productivity than it saves and if bosses don't get that they really should look to pull their heads out of their rear ends. It isn't the US where the worker gets shafted all day every day, after all.

I think the infection fatality rate or flu and covid are pretty much the same now, perhaps flu is a bit higher, I know flu is putting a lot more pressure on ICU’s now than covid. The reality is that most people have had covid now and are vaccinated, I believe they call it hybrid immunity and it’s going in the direction of the other coronaviruses in circulation, but it’ll take a couple of generations until it becomes genuinely ‘just a cold’. It’s still a nasty bug, it’s just a lot less likely to kill you now. 

[SpacedX]

Influenza (flu) and Covid-19 are both contagious respiratory illnesses, but they are caused by different viruses. Compared with flu, SARS-CoV-2 can cause more severe illness in some people, whilst as has been pointed out, people infected with Covid-19 may take longer to manifest symptoms and may be contagious for longer periods of time. You cannot tell the difference between flu and Covid-19 by the symptoms alone because they have some of the same signs and similarities hence the importance of testing.

 

Why test? why differentiate? Although both Covid-19 and the flu can result in complications, (both can result in pneumonia for example), severe Covid-19 illness resulting in hospitalisation and death can occur even in ostensibly healthy people. The infected can go on to develop post-Covid conditions, Long Covid or multisystem inflammatory syndrome (MIS). Long-term damage to the lungs, heart, kidneys, brain and other organs and a variety of long-lasting symptoms, are all possible after a case of Covid-19. 

 

In short, it's nastier, but because cases associated with the omicron variant were milder than its predecessors we are less inclined to perceive it as such. My parents are 90. Why wouldn't I invest a few quid and take two minutes of my time to test several days before going to see them? If I'm feeling rough working from home on Friday, why wouldn't I test immediately before I'm back to work in the office the following week? 

[HighPeakFox]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that certain people like to suggest that washing hands after taking a piss is somehow a bad thing.

[taupe]

I wash my hands before taking a piss. I never know where I've been. 

[FoxesDeb]

5 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

I think it's worth bearing in mind that certain people like to suggest that washing hands after taking a piss is somehow a bad thing.

Do they?!

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

Do they?!

You need to (or not) look in the darkest recesses of the Brendan Rodgers thread.

[dsr-burnley]

On 08/01/2023 at 12:08, Alf Bentley said:

Don't be "afraid" or otherwise regretful about making your points, though. I'm sure making them introduced a little joy into your life, albeit in a slightly mean-spirited way.....so that's a positive, isn't it? 

I'll try and be as bitchy as you next time. 

[Alf Bentley]

7 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

I'll try and be as bitchy as you next time. 

 

Go for it. I'm confident you can succeed. 

[Paninistickers]

I see the COVID junkies can't now cling onto the ol' excess deaths chestnut any longer. 

 

....the amount of times out the regulars have trotted out ' But but but! Excess deaths blah blah blah '

 

 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I see the COVID junkies can't now cling onto the ol' excess deaths chestnut any longer. 

 

....the amount of times out the regulars have trotted out ' But but but! Excess deaths blah blah blah '

 

 

If I might ask, what's the overall point being driven at here?

 

The input in the last couple pages of this thread is indicative that Covid is now (thankfully) not that much more threatening to life than other endemic respiratory conditions, and the discussion reflects that - as well as the clear and obvious fact that until Omicron became a thing, it really was rather more threatening.

 

Why stir the pot?

[Otis]

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If I might ask, what's the overall point being driven at here?

 

The input in the last couple pages of this thread is indicative that Covid is now (thankfully) not that much more threatening to life than other endemic respiratory conditions, and the discussion reflects that - as well as the clear and obvious fact that until Omicron became a thing, it really was rather more threatening.

 

Why stir the pot?

I would assume the question being asked in a round about way is what is now causing the excess deaths and what is being done about it. As when we had excess deaths caused by Covid huge life changing restrictions were forced upon us all.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Otis said:

I would assume the question being asked in a round about way is what is now causing the excess deaths and what is being done about it. As when we had excess deaths caused by Covid huge life changing restrictions were forced upon us all.

Interesting.

 

I guess those restrictions were due to the fact that the excess deaths caused by the earlier variants of Covid were several times higher than the present time. Something that leaves more hats on the ground and against which there was (at the start) no knowledge and therefore no defence, would be inclined to have a more robust response to address it, I would think.

Edited 10 January 2023 by leicsmac

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Paninistickers said:

I see the COVID junkies can't now cling onto the ol' excess deaths chestnut any longer. 

 

....the amount of times out the regulars have trotted out ' But but but! Excess deaths blah blah blah '

 

 

Excess deaths are caused by different things at different times: wars, diseases, poverty etc.

Thus, excess deaths having one cause at a particular time doesn't mean they didn't have another cause at a different time.

 

Excess deaths in the Middle Ages were caused by the Black Death. In 1914-18 they were caused by WW1. In about 1918-20 they were caused by Spanish Flu. In 1939-45 they were caused by WW2. In 2020-2022 they were mainly caused by Covid. In 2023, they seem to mainly have other causes (see answer to Otis).

 

Or are you claiming that the current excess deaths not only disprove excess deaths being caused by Covid, but also disprove those caused by the Black Death, WW1, Spanish Flu and WW2?

 

1 hour ago, Otis said:

I would assume the question being asked in a round about way is what is now causing the excess deaths and what is being done about it. As when we had excess deaths caused by Covid huge life changing restrictions were forced upon us all.

 

An expert on the BBC News said a sizeable chunk are proven to be excess deaths from heart disease. He linked this to a big fall in people taking up blood pressure medication during the pandemic. Though I imagine excess deaths from heart disease are also linked to the massive backlog in NHS treatment for all sorts of illnesses, due to a combination of under-investment, under-staffing, bed-blocking due to lack of social care - and hospitals being packed with Covid patients during the pandemic, some of them fear-raddled Covid-sceptic vaccine refuseniks beating their chests and proclaiming themselves freedom fighters against the Covid lie.

 

Said expert also said he expected there to also be excess deaths from cancer, though data is not available for this yet. That's logical enough, as again a lot of people will have had their cancer treatment delayed for the aforementioned reasons (and because some have not sought medical help soon enough due to fear of Covid in hospitals or a misplaced desire not to bother the busy medics).

 

I imagine there have also been excess deaths for other reasons indirectly connected either to Covid or to lockdowns. For example, it seems there's a bigger than usual flu epidemic as people have lower resistance after not being exposed to flu during (necessary) Covid lockdowns. Likewise, it's known that lockdown led to a big jump in excessive drinking at home, so it would be surprising if there were not excess deaths from cirrhosis etc.

 

Of course, there are probably other causes of excess deaths that are not connected to Covid or to lockdowns. It is known that increases in poverty, stress and mental illness cause excess deaths. As we've been going through a cost of living crisis for months, it would again be surprising if there weren't excess deaths due to poverty, stress and mental illness.

 

What is being done about it? The NHS is doing its best to catch up from the Covid backlog while Govt policy is leading to under-investment and under-staffing in the NHS and a failed social care system, thereby causing more excess deaths.

[Alf Bentley]

On a positive note, I finally tested negative for Covid today (positive from 30th Dec, but probably earlier). 

 

Thanks to the vaccine, I only got a very mild dose despite being aged 60, not exceptionally fit and having a hereditary heart condition otherwise rendering me vulnerable to severe Covid (I needed a minor heart op about 4 years ago due to knock-on effects of a bog-standard chest infection).

 

In contrast, my brother is 4.5 years younger, physically fitter than me, doesn't have a hereditary heart condition but is a vaccine refusenik. A year ago, he got a much more severe dose - and was very ill for more than a month (but recovered thankfully).

 

I'm off out to celebrate now! 

[Paninistickers]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

On a positive note, I finally tested negative for Covid today (positive from 30th Dec, but probably earlier). 

 

Thanks to the vaccine, I only got a very mild dose despite being aged 60, not exceptionally fit and having a hereditary heart condition otherwise rendering me vulnerable to severe Covid (I needed a minor heart op about 4 years ago due to knock-on effects of a bog-standard chest infection).

 

In contrast, my brother is 4.5 years younger, physically fitter than me, doesn't have a hereditary heart condition but is a vaccine refusenik. A year ago, he got a much more severe dose - and was very ill for more than a month (but recovered thankfully).

 

I'm off out to celebrate now! 

Of course,. You might be right. Vaccine may well have helped prevent a more severe illness. 

 

Bit in the interests of fairness,  equally likely is that your viral.load was different to that of your brother. Or that the virus has naturally 'run out of puff' and mutated to a much less severe illness. Or of course, you just responded different to the illness. 

 

 

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, Otis said:

I would assume the question being asked in a round about way is what is now causing the excess deaths and what is being done about it. As when we had excess deaths caused by Covid huge life changing restrictions were forced upon us all.

Go to your local a&e and you’ll soon see what’s causing the amount of excess deaths. There’s no staff, no ambulances and no beds. 

[HighPeakFox]

I see the victims of the forum have found another outlet. 

[Parafox]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Go to your local a&e and you’ll soon see what’s causing the amount of excess deaths. There’s no staff, no ambulances and no beds. 

 

Damn right.

 

As far as I can see from what I've looked at, there are no figures for deaths in the community over the last 2 years that don't include Coronavirus but, from personal experience and talking to people I know who still work on the frontline, their experience is that deaths in the community are increasing.

 

Also this from From the Association of Chief Ambulance Officers and vis the BBC:

 

On Sunday, RCEM (Royal College of Emergency Medicine) president Dr Adrian Boyle said between 300 and 500 people were dying every week as a result of delays to emergency care.

The figures appear to be based on research published by the Emergency Medical Journal which calculated that every 82 patients whose hospital admission is delayed by more than six hours results in one death within 30 days.

[Parafox]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I see the victims of the forum have found another outlet. 

Meaning?

You can't just make a statement like that without some explanation.

[HighPeakFox]

19 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Meaning?

You can't just make a statement like that without some explanation.

Yes I can 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, Parafox said:

Meaning?

You can't just make a statement like that without some explanation.

They think that the mRNA vaccine is to blame and that those of us who use logic and who state the absolute obvious (aka the state of the nhs) are either in denial/have had our brains turned to mush by the vaccine.