Development/Youth Squads 2022/2023 Thread - U18/U21

[Foxy-Lady]

17 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Define top class player? If your debating whether an England international, champions league winning player is top class then it’s pretty tough criteria to be meet.

I can’t remember the last time we didn’t have an Academy graduate in our starting 11.

We had the likes of Andy King and Jeff Schluup who won the PL with us.

Harvey Barnes goals and assists is as good as anyone in the PL outside the genuine world class players.

We had Calvin Bassey who went to Ajax for 20 odd million from rangers.

How many clubs in the country are genuinely doing much better? 

Probably Calvins experience at Rangers that turned him into a £20m player as he was told by us that there was no pathway for him to the first team...! 

[moore_94]

Under 18s beat West Brom 2-0

 

 

[Foxy-Lady]

20 hours ago, davieG said:

It wasn't until we won the league, perhaps even after that before we could stand a chance of attracting the best potential even now it's hard to compete against the Super 6 who vacuum up all the best players both from home and abroad at a very early age.. 

Dont normally disagree with your views @davieG but im not sure you're factually correct on this one as NO Super6 club is geographically positioned under PL rules to recruit U16 players from within the Leics and surrounding area and similarly, we are not allowed to strecth our recruitment into their geographical catchment areas......so the reason we cant compete with them at that level has very little to do with money or success.

 

[An Sionnach]

1 hour ago, Kilworthfox said:

I am suprised, as I respect you as a forum poster, that you don't belive Barnes to be at the level of Chilwell. I believe it has more to do with the competition on the wing, compared with full back at international level. 

 

Irrespective what does that have to do with the academy? 

 

What are your general expectations for the academy?

 

Why do you think it exists? 

 

 

That's an interesting question. An academy is not expected to produce a continual conveyor of top quality players for sure. However one a season should be the minimum requirement for a major PL club like ours. If we do produce a £30 to £50 million pound player every season on average it is paying for itself and we are not doing that even though we are now an established PL club.

[moore_94]

3 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

That's an interesting question. An academy is not expected to produce a continual conveyor of top quality players for sure. However one a season should be the minimum requirement for a major PL club like ours. If we do produce a £30 to £50 million pound player every season on average it is paying for itself and we are not doing that even though we are now an established PL club.

Who in the Prem is managing that now?

[An Sionnach]

Just now, moore_94 said:

Who in the Prem is managing that now?

A lot of this is to do with PL clubs preferring to buy  graduates from continental and south american academies rather than concentrating on their own students. Money is always involved of course but in our case we have to create value from our own young players whether we retain them or sell them like Chilwell.

[davieG]

40 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Dont normally disagree with your views @davieG but im not sure you're factually correct on this one as NO Super6 club is geographically positioned under PL rules to recruit U16 players from within the Leics and surrounding area and similarly, we are not allowed to strecth our recruitment into their geographical catchment areas......so the reason we cant compete with them at that level has very little to do with money or success.

 

I was thinking more  of the overseas players on that point where a lot of the recent good youngsters seem to be from. You're correct though I'm no expert but I still think it's valid that absence from the PL has a significant affect on recruitment after all haven't we been recruiting older graduates from other club.

[Ric Flair]

12 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

Who in the Prem is managing that now?

I think it should be the barometer and at the very least have 1 new player from the academy each season who could perform well at Championship level and prove they are ready for the PL soon after.

[Kilworthfox]

1 hour ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Ideally, It "should" exist to enable us to develop the most talented players within our allowed catchment area to their maximum potential in the hands of the most technically gifted coaching team.

They would then hopefully progress to our 1st team to minimise our need to buy players or.......become a source of future transfer revenue. 

 

At times, certainly in the past when i watched it in action, it seemed to exist simply as a way to "prevent" other clubs (Forest, derby, Cov etc...)  from poaching talented local youngsters from within the LCFC catchment as there was always a sense of embarrassment if ever a 'Local' boy went on to become successful at another club as it was seen as our recruitment team "missing out". 

The expression "Fishing with Dynamite" was often used around Belvoir Drive as our Academy scouts seemed to just "hoover" up all the stand-out youngsters in the hope that one of them might prove to be "the one" in the hands of our Academy coaching staff. If you throw a lighted stick of dynamite into a lake, there is a pretty fair chance you will catch at least one fish......it doesn't make you a genius or even a good fisherman!

 

Of course, that all falls down if you don't actually have the calibre of Youth coaches to develop the players to their maximum potential.....which is why i always find it more significant that Chilwell, Barnes and KDH were so keen to secure loan moves rather than play for Beaglesholes U23s.....and that they developed better as players AWAY from our U23s Academy system than they ever did WITHIN it

 

Ideally yes that is correct, to produce players who will contribute to the success of the 1st team, then the secondary reason for existence is, to sell players to bring in funds to support the club. End of!

 

The first part is difficult, as the standards are so high. So you will find that more players naturally are sold than play 1st team football, we all know this. However there should be a % of success for players in compared with games played or funds generated to ascertain success. I believe this exists in a partial form, Id suggest we are average, but that is disappointing as we are a big club.

 

To correctly judge the success, you have to pick your metrics, and the time period, as development for an individual player can range from 0 to 18 years start to finish.

 

The competition within catchment areas that crossover is very healthy! Leicester currently are gaining the commitments the majority of the better players within its catchment area. I am sure fans would be happy to hear this, as it is essential to put quality in early, to get quality out when it matters (FIrst team or money to support the club).

 

No member of club staff benefits if a player doesn't develop as planned. I have no reason to believe that any member of staff intentionally inhibits a players development. Now that brings a competence question and we could be here all day answering that, but in my opinion, the positive intent is there, some individuals direction / methods could be misguided, and possibly that is where your frustrations (rightly) may find their origins.

 

No player is poached! Poaching is illegal. It is an offer to receive coaching & play games for LCFC academy, which is either accepted or refused. 

 

If a "Local" boy commits to another club, and this player is of interest then YES questions must be asked (& are asked), however not all clubs have the same VALUES as our academy, which I personally believe is the right practice, irrespective if we lose a quality local player. This has happened a few times to my knowledge! Believe me there are certain clubs (NOT LCFC) whose recruitment practices are outside of the rules, LCFC will not break said rules. To reiterate, LCFC do not financially induce any player or parent to help aid recruitment.

 

The academy selects players based on performance, & perceived potential. Nobody has a crystal ball. Some of the scouts are out there doing a very positive job as a volunteer (it is not all about taking players in, there is a positive community aspect). Some are completely incapable of picking their nose, swings & roundabouts I guess.

 

If I had to plan for a "Local" boy their ideal pathway would be, to have years of training and positive experiences at LCFC, then (as daft as it sounds) get released at 16 / 18 then move to a lower league team for 1st team opportunities and then play "proper football"! Only an individual with some real backbone makes these calls, it understand it is not easy for a player to walk away from thousands a week.

 

However I see that we currently have a culture of fear on both sides (Player & Club) about losing potential value (this will exist at every club), so some get kept on when they should be released, and the player likes earning silly money and playing meaningless games, only to find that at 20 something they are in the football wilderness, yet have the enviable situation of more financial security than most.

 

I can't cover every eventuality, but the above is accurate as I can concisely explain.

 

 

 

 

[Kilworthfox]

1 hour ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Dont normally disagree with your views @davieG but im not sure you're factually correct on this one as NO Super6 club is geographically positioned under PL rules to recruit U16 players from within the Leics and surrounding area and similarly, we are not allowed to strecth our recruitment into their geographical catchment areas......so the reason we cant compete with them at that level has very little to do with money or success.

 

Correct.

 

The geography and travel restrictions apply for every club the same, its the luck of the people and talent within that geography.

[Kilworthfox]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

That's an interesting question. An academy is not expected to produce a continual conveyor of top quality players for sure. However one a season should be the minimum requirement for a major PL club like ours. If we do produce a £30 to £50 million pound player every season on average it is paying for itself and we are not doing that even though we are now an established PL club.

I believe the club should expect find value, more often than not within each age group. That means a player for the 1st team or a player who has a financial value. So we agree!

 

I don't think the financial expectation should be as high as you have however. 

 

A success could be a much smaller transfer value, as you have to take a wider view point than season by season to get such larger transfers, my personal belief. Maybe look over the last 15 -20 years,add up all the transfers and 1st team appearances and create a table over the 92 clubs and divide by the amount of years.

 

To clarify, if a academy prospect is sold for £250k that could be a success even though they did not play a 1st team  game for us. Obviously the Million pound transfers are more eye catching, but they are far rarer.

 

I am sure we would sit about 30th without doing all the research and metric comparisons. Which isn't ideal as I believe we should be top 10 in England, but that is just a view rather than a fact.

 

Shoulds, are not ares, sadly in life, and this is just football 

 

[Frank Large's Black Book]

2 hours ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Probably Calvins experience at Rangers that turned him into a £20m player as he was told by us that there was no pathway for him to the first team...! 

Maybe wrong but I'm sure there were posts on here saying he left because he didn't want to play in the position that lcfc wanted him to.  Rangers took a season to come to the same conclusion as us and he's never looked back.

 

Good luck to him but there was a pathway, he just didn't agree with it.

[Kilworthfox]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I think it should be the barometer and at the very least have 1 new player from the academy each season who could perform well at Championship level and prove they are ready for the PL soon after.

Maybe there are some staff who don't want this to be looked into?

 

Who would it benefit?

 

If the suits took a look, maybe some positions would become vacant... 

 

Do the suits have a huge interest in the academy performance, by comparing us to other rivals?

[Kilworthfox]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

A lot of this is to do with PL clubs preferring to buy  graduates from continental and south american academies rather than concentrating on their own students. Money is always involved of course but in our case we have to create value from our own young players whether we retain them or sell them like Chilwell.

The standard of player is defined by the pool, within where they are expected to play.

 

By 18 the coverage is worldwide. Don't believe this is a negative, as our club has connections and the finances to dominate in terms of recruitment, when compared to our local rivals.

 

What this means is that for example we can sign players at 18 from anywhere, like any other club, yet, we are the big fish, and Forest, down to Northampton all have less resources than ourselves.

 

Hence this means for our local lads it is much harder to be a first team player because not only do you have to be one of the best within the midlands, you then have to be one of the best within the nation, then the world, to make a first team appearance. Has anyone here mentioned Nathan Opoku. I really think you guys would be interested to learn more about him, and how we got him!

 

At Northampton for example, if you are one of the best in the Midlands, it's probably good enough for that chance you need to gain further experience in order to develop your game.

 

So when judging LCFC against other academies, it is actually more difficult for LCFC to always prioritise the local lad, unless they are the superstar, and those names you all already know.

 

All we care about in reality is in this order: Player wellbeing, Winning 1st team games & Money.

[Ric Flair]

26 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

Correct.

 

The geography and travel restrictions apply for every club the same, its the luck of the people and talent within that geography.

Do elite clubs get very promising U16 players to decide to relocate with their family to a new area of the country and then luck would have it move to the local club that happens to be one of the big 6?

[Ric Flair]

Good to see Trey Nyoni with another goal today, ticking along quite nicely.

[moore_94]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

Good to see Trey Nyoni with another goal today, ticking along quite nicely.

Looks like it was actually Evans who got the goal - which is still good to see of course

[Kilworthfox]

26 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Do elite clubs get very promising U16 players to decide to relocate with their family to a new area of the country and then luck would have it move to the local club that happens to be one of the big 6?

U16 👀

 

Try u8! 

 

Not mentioning any clubs. 🐓🐺

Edited 18 February 2023 by Kilworthfox

[Kilworthfox]

Just now, Kilworthfox said:

U16 👀

 

Try u8! 

 

Not mentioning any clubs. 🐓🐺

 

[An Sionnach]

Luke Thomas is out of favour right now , yet because he is an experienced PL and European player he has a fair value. I would think in the £15-20 million bracket. If he had not had  a quick promotion to the senior squad , he could have disappeared into multiple loans like Knight and Hirst. His value then would have been pretty low. A lot complain about that on here but quick promotion can definitely increase value. Let's hope Braybrooke , when fit again, gets that chance. Two or three good performances for us will dramatically increase his value.

[sacreblueits442]

3 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Luke Thomas is out of favour right now , yet because he is an experienced PL and European player he has a fair value. I would think in the £15-20 million bracket. If he had not had  a quick promotion to the senior squad , he could have disappeared into multiple loans like Knight and Hirst. His value then would have been pretty low. A lot complain about that on here but quick promotion can definitely increase value. Let's hope Braybrooke , when fit again, gets that chance. Two or three good performances for us will dramatically increase his value.

...£7m for Sowah, not sure if he ever made an appearance in the league!!!

 Certainly the English premium is a factor, but Luke Thomas needs to be out on loan playing regularly instead of being a backup to Kristiansen.  Much like Ward not getting the experience that he needed with the 3rd choice getting the game time on loan, it seems a strange arrangement. 

[Mint23]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I think it should be the barometer and at the very least have 1 new player from the academy each season who could perform well at Championship level and prove they are ready for the PL soon after.

I was at king power stadium roughly 3 years ago for a coaches development night and the head of our academy said that when he was appointed he was told the expectation was to get one player per season into the first team.  Since he’s been there he’s pretty much don’t just that, Chilwell, Barnes, Choudhury, Thomas, Brunt, Alves, Nelson and Braybrooke have all made first team appearances.  Not everyone is going to move on for £50m+ but I’d say we have one of the most successful academies in the past 7-10 years.

[majaco]

22 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Barnes is that level. 

It's that of bs from the site's top woman that means he is the only poster I blocked.  I still get to see the bs when others respond to him.

 

Barnes and KDH are both top level players.

[Jimopinion]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Good to see Trey Nyoni with another goal today, ticking along quite nicely.

It was a mistake by opta. It was Evans goal. He is our 18s top scorer in the league. Lindsey was excellent at left back, he a top prospect

[Lambert09]

everything in youth football has about a 10 year lag… we weren’t even out of the championship 10 years ago. 

 

It’s going to take time to see what talent we can attract with our new facilities but our output with your success is probably exactly where it should be, if not slightly ahead. not too many clubs have made 60m off of a player and another one in the side worth 60m. 

 

Makes me laugh when people question the training grounds impacts so soon after having it. Let wait to see how we develop the under 12s with 6/7 years training with those resources.