Development/Youth Squads 2022/2023 Thread - U18/U21

[An Sionnach]

50 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

everything in youth football has about a 10 year lag… we weren’t even out of the championship 10 years ago. 

 

It’s going to take time to see what talent we can attract with our new facilities but our output with your success is probably exactly where it should be, if not slightly ahead. not too many clubs have made 60m off of a player and another one in the side worth 60m. 

 

Makes me laugh when people question the training grounds impacts so soon after having it. Let wait to see how we develop the under 12s with 6/7 years training with those resources. 
 

 

 

 

Of course time will tell and kids develop at different speeds for sure ,worryingly though our  U21s are not doing well at all and our U18s little better,.

[davieG]

47 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

everything in youth football has about a 10 year lag… we weren’t even out of the championship 10 years ago. 

 

It’s going to take time to see what talent we can attract with our new facilities but our output with your success is probably exactly where it should be, if not slightly ahead. not too many clubs have made 60m off of a player and another one in the side worth 60m. 

 

Makes me laugh when people question the training grounds impacts so soon after having it. Let wait to see how we develop the under 12s with 6/7 years training with those resources. 
 

 

 

 

Agree but there seems to be a lack of co-ordination across the range of teams with respect to style/approach to games. But then Rodgers is hardly consistent in his tactics even with all the injuries where there seems to be a very clear reluctance to blood academy players preferring to play established players out of position where they are less effective and all sorts of formations that the players seem too struggle with understanding what and how they're are supposed to play.

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Lambert09 said:

everything in youth football has about a 10 year lag… we weren’t even out of the championship 10 years ago. 

 

It’s going to take time to see what talent we can attract with our new facilities but our output with your success is probably exactly where it should be, if not slightly ahead. not too many clubs have made 60m off of a player and another one in the side worth 60m. 

 

Makes me laugh when people question the training grounds impacts so soon after having it. Let wait to see how we develop the under 12s with 6/7 years training with those resources. 
 

 

 

 

You're being very lenient there. We've been category one for a long while now and were / are the standout Midlands club for several years and despite having state of the art facilities where the marginal gains and blueprint should be focused heavily on our academy we've invested very little in signing the best academy players from the Midlands and beyond if possible, but even worse than that we've not looked to recruit elite coaches.

 

It's jobs for the boys still under Rudkin's watchful eye. 

 

Even if what you said was true about it taking a decade, I'm not convinced the players coming through now are better than Chilwell, Barnes etc ???

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Jimopinion said:

It was a mistake by opta. It was Evans goal. He is our 18s top scorer in the league. Lindsey was excellent at left back, he a top prospect

I've been raving about Reece Evans for a long while, he was devastating at U16 level. He's definitely got a promising future. Lindsay was signed from Man Utd and is doing well by all accounts too.

[CosbehFox]

3 hours ago, majaco said:

It's that of bs from the site's top woman that means he is the only poster I blocked.  I still get to see the bs when others respond to him.

 

Barnes and KDH are both top level players.

I think I’m blocked from the poster too as I once called them out on their George Hirst prediction of being a PL striker within a couple of years 

Edited 18 February 2023 by CosbehFox

[Lambert09]

41 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

You're being very lenient there. We've been category one for a long while now and were / are the standout Midlands club for several years and despite having state of the art facilities where the marginal gains and blueprint should be focused heavily on our academy we've invested very little in signing the best academy players from the Midlands and beyond if possible, but even worse than that we've not looked to recruit elite coaches.

 

It's jobs for the boys still under Rudkin's watchful eye. 

 

Even if what you said was true about it taking a decade, I'm not convinced the players coming through now are better than Chilwell, Barnes etc ???

I personally think alves and braybrooke could eclipse both of them… if these injuries don’t severely set them back. 

 

We also have a handful of others who could genuinely make it.. kdh never stood out but has become a prem player… I wouldn’t write the crop off yet 

[Ric Flair]

14 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

I personally think alves and braybrooke could eclipse both of them… if these injuries don’t severely set them back. 

 

We also have a handful of others who could genuinely make it.. kdh never stood out but has become a prem player… I wouldn’t write the crop off yet 

I'm not writing them off, I too share strong belief both will be Premier League players if their ACLs don't stunt their development, but not certain they'll reach the level Chilwell and Barnes have. 

 

I get frustrated because although we've a decent record at bringing a handful of players through, it could be a whole lot better. As I've said before, I'm baffled by what the vision of the club is on this state of the art training facility if the academy isn't at the forefront of it. It's not even just the players coming through to supply the 1st team, it's cashing in on those not quite PL class but Championship and reinvesting the money and the conveyor belt goes on and on.

[Foxxed]

My biggest priority for the academy would be to work out if the turf or nutrition or whatever is causing more ACLs than club averages elsewhere. Brendan does have a record of overtraining previously injuried players and bringing them back too soon but that surely can't affect the academy. Then we can concentrate on transitioning from very good mid table academy to excellent academy.

[Ric Flair]

13 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

My biggest priority for the academy would be to work out if the turf or nutrition or whatever is causing more ACLs than club averages elsewhere. Brendan does have a record of overtraining previously injuried players and bringing them back too soon but that surely can't affect the academy. Then we can concentrate on transitioning from very good mid table academy to excellent academy.

Not just ACLs, there's been severe long term injuries in the last year to Kian Pennant, Oli Ewing, Chris Popov, Wanya Marca. I've probably missed others + half a dozen knee ligament injuries.

[sacreblueits442]

33 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I'm not writing them off, I too share strong belief both will be Premier League players if their ACLs don't stunt their development, but not certain they'll reach the level Chilwell and Barnes have. 

 

I get frustrated because although we've a decent record at bringing a handful of players through, it could be a whole lot better. As I've said before, I'm baffled by what the vision of the club is on this state of the art training facility if the academy isn't at the forefront of it. It's not even just the players coming through to supply the 1st team, it's cashing in on those not quite PL class but Championship and reinvesting the money and the conveyor belt goes on and on.

...Braybrooke will make the grade, he will be right up there!!!

  Still think if he was not injured, he would be sitting on the sidelines waiting and playing in the U21s. 

[Lambert09]

33 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I'm not writing them off, I too share strong belief both will be Premier League players if their ACLs don't stunt their development, but not certain they'll reach the level Chilwell and Barnes have. 

 

I get frustrated because although we've a decent record at bringing a handful of players through, it could be a whole lot better. As I've said before, I'm baffled by what the vision of the club is on this state of the art training facility if the academy isn't at the forefront of it. It's not even just the players coming through to supply the 1st team, it's cashing in on those not quite PL class but Championship and reinvesting the money and the conveyor belt goes on and on.

I definitely agree that on the surface it seems like not enough is being done to improve… particularly the coaching staff.  

 

My original comment was more in frustration to certain posters with delusional expectations to what we should be delivering. 
 

On paper at least we’ve been successful, whether that’s more down to luck or skill i’m not so sure. But I would say there  aren’t many clubs of a similar size with a better recent record. 

 

[An Sionnach]

Southampton are an arguably smaller club than us but have an excellent academy record. Its arguable that selling on their graduates has been a major source of income. It hasn't brought them any real success but it has enabled them to reinvest. What are they doing right with young players? There has to be something.

[Aus Fox]

26 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Southampton are an arguably smaller club than us but have an excellent academy record. Its arguable that selling on their graduates has been a major source of income. It hasn't brought them any real success but it has enabled them to reinvest. What are they doing right with young players? There has to be something.

I don’t know the answer to this question, so it’s not having a dig, but when was the last time they brought a player through who they sold for big money?

Between about 2010 and 12(ish) they had the likes of Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Oxlade-Chamberlain and a couple of others, but have they had many  in the last 10 years?

Other than Ward-Prowse, do they have any regular first team players that have come through the youth set up?

I know I am going to have missed someone obvious, but really can’t think of a player they’ve sold in the last 10 or so years for big money that came through their youth set up.

[moore_94]

19 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

I don’t know the answer to this question, so it’s not having a dig, but when was the last time they brought a player through who they sold for big money?

Between about 2010 and 12(ish) they had the likes of Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Oxlade-Chamberlain and a couple of others, but have they had many  in the last 10 years?

Other than Ward-Prowse, do they have any regular first team players that have come through the youth set up?

I know I am going to have missed someone obvious, but really can’t think of a player they’ve sold in the last 10 or so years for big money that came through their youth set up.

In the past 5 years or so I think it would be Targett, Obafemi, Reed, and Gallagher but I think all of those went for at most about £20m total

 

Currently I believe they only have JWP in their first team squad, and technically Walcott I guess!

[The_Rorab]

10 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

I don’t know the answer to this question, so it’s not having a dig, but when was the last time they brought a player through who they sold for big money?

Between about 2010 and 12(ish) they had the likes of Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Oxlade-Chamberlain and a couple of others, but have they had many  in the last 10 years?

Other than Ward-Prowse, do they have any regular first team players that have come through the youth set up?

I know I am going to have missed someone obvious, but really can’t think of a player they’ve sold in the last 10 or so years for big money that came through their youth set up.

Since I love doing research I've gone and looked at the last 5/6 years of Southampton academy Premier League playtime versus ours.

 

Leicester

2017/18 - 29 starts/46 total apps - Chilwell (20+4), King (5+6), Hamza (4+4), Barnes (0+3)

2018/19 - 54 starts/61 total apps - Chilwell (36), Barnes (11+5), Hamza (7+2)

2019/20 - 64 starts/88 total apps - Chilwell (27), Barnes (24+12), Hamza (10+10), Thomas (3), Hirst (0+2)

2020/21 - 39 starts/52 total apps - Barnes (22+3), Thomas (12+2), Hamza (4+6), Tavares (1+1), Leshabela (0+1)

2021/22 - 72 starts/90 total apps - Barnes (24+8), KDH (23+5), Thomas (21+1), Hamza (4+2), Brunt (0+1), McAteer (0+1)

2022/23 - 47 starts/51 total apps - Barnes (20), KDH (19+1), Thomas (8+2), Brunt (0+1)

 

Southampton

2017/18 - 46 starts/68 total apps - Stephens (22), JWP (20+10), Targett (2), McQueen (1+6), Sims (1+5), Obafemi (0+1)

2018/19 - 77 starts/111 total apps - JWP (21+5), Valery (20+3), Stephens (19+5), Targett (13+3), Sims (2+5), Obafemi (1+5), Slattery (1+2), Gallagher (0+4), Johnson (0+1), Ramsay (0+1)

2019/20 - 88 starts/109 total apps - JWP (38), Stephens (27+1), Valery (10+1), Obafemi (8+13), Smallbone (4+5), Vokins (1), Tella (0+1)

2020/21 - 66 starts/101 total apps - JWP (38), Stephens (17+1), Tella (7+11), Smallbone (2+1), Jankewitz (1+1), Ramsay (1), N'Lundulu (0+13), Obafemi (0+4), Watts (0+3), Tchaptchet (0+1)

2021/22 - 60 starts/70 total apps - JWP (36), Tella (10+4), Stephens (9+2), Valery (3+2), Smallbone (2+2)

2022/23 - 26 starts/29 total apps - JWP (23), Larios (2+3), Valery (1)

 

Technically, Theo Walcott is a Southampton academy graduate and has made appearances but I really didn't think he fit the criteria of what I was specifically looking at given he was bought back to the club as a 30+ year old veteran!

 

Southampton's straight-up numbers are larger than ours in all but this and last season, but I think the biggest difference is the amount of opportunities afforded to academy players. With us you seem to either be an integral part of the squad or you're lucky to play a game off the bench, whereas Southampton generally will throw in a youngster or two whenever they want - though having said that I can't really say I know much about any of the peripheral Southampton youth players and none of them really seem to have made much of an impact on the first team long-term - though I know at least Smallbone and Tella have Championship loans this season.

 

Not really analysing anything - I don't exactly think Southampton are the model of a club to follow right now so even if they're affording more opportunities to academy players I don't know if I think copying Southampton is a good idea! I do think though that being an academy player at Southampton probably feels more likely to afford you a chance in the first team than at Leicester, especially given our utter reticence to loan players out - which is how all bar Thomas of our regulars made their way into our first team!

 

However, from a quick glance, I'd definitely say the pickings are sparse if you aren't named James Ward-Prowse at Southampton in the last 5/6 years, with Jack Stephens and Yan Valery the only other regular names - but Stephens is currently on loan at Bournemouth and rarely playing there, and Valery has been sold due to not really showing Premier League level quality.

[The_Rorab]

19 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

In the past 5 years or so I think it would be Targett, Obafemi, Reed, and Gallagher but I think all of those went for at most about £20m total

 

Currently I believe they only have JWP in their first team squad, and technically Walcott I guess!

 

I'd forgotten about the likes of Reed and Gallagher, and the likes of Targett etc making some decent money - which is one of the big things we never seem to do - all our academy outs seem to either be releases or very minimal fees to lower league or foreign sides.

Edited 19 February 2023 by The_Rorab

[An Sionnach]

Well done to everybody for having a decent and well mannered debate about a very important aspect of the clubs future.👏👏

Edited 19 February 2023 by An Sionnach

[Kilworthfox]

16 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

You're being very lenient there. We've been category one for a long while now and were / are the standout Midlands club for several years and despite having state of the art facilities where the marginal gains and blueprint should be focused heavily on our academy we've invested very little in signing the best academy players from the Midlands and beyond if possible, but even worse than that we've not looked to recruit elite coaches.

 

It's jobs for the boys still under Rudkin's watchful eye. 

 

Even if what you said was true about it taking a decade, I'm not convinced the players coming through now are better than Chilwell, Barnes etc ???

I am not looking to pick holes here, however things get written from a fans POV, when in reality some questions can be answered on here even if you aren't ITK, so that we can keep the reality attached to this topic about the academy.

 

What do you believe Cat 1 academy means? There is a reason our club chooses to be Cat 1.

 

Standout in what way? How do we compare to local rival clubs for example: Villa or Derby over the last 10 years?

 

We only just moved to "modern" facilities, however, what are the benefits of the new facility from the perspective of the academy, in comparison to Belvoir drive? Most fans will be very surprised at the reality!

 

We have had a policy up until the last few years not to buy players from other academies, but on rare occasions we have. As an overall % it will be very low.

 

IMO on here we are quick to blame JR with a lot, however there are things he does that he personally, does that benefit the academy!

 

How would we know if a coach is elite or not? I am not arguing the point (as there are a spectrum of coaching abilities), but from a recruitment POV, before the club hires them, how do you ascertain if they are good or bad? If the club believes them to be bad... how do they remove said coach? Where does responsibility lay if X, Y or Z happens? How can you pinpoint a perceived failure on a specific coach? As all opinions and rational in football, it is all subjective, isn't it?

 

There may have been a stagnant culture for some coaching staff, but in the main those people have moved on, we do have some new full time coaches, and overall they are excellent IMO.

 

The cycle could take a long time for a player to develop, for example, in at u6, and then they could maybe make a debut at 16 if they are amazing, that's a rare occurrence, but a 10 year development cycle.

 

 

[Kilworthfox]

13 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

Southampton are an arguably smaller club than us but have an excellent academy record. Its arguable that selling on their graduates has been a major source of income. It hasn't brought them any real success but it has enabled them to reinvest. What are they doing right with young players? There has to be something.

Catchment area!

 

Gareth Bale.

[Lambert09]

12 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

Catchment area!

 

Gareth Bale.

they were always known as the best in business for youth players partly because their facilities were miles better than anyone else’s. 

 

Im really struggling to remember who but there was someone on the undr the cosh pod talking about how unreal it was and I think they actually had the option for older youth players to live there if i’m not mistaken. 

 

 

[Lambert09]

Edit * information turned out not to be about us 

Edited 20 February 2023 by Lambert09

[Kilworthfox]

8 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

they were always known as the best in business for youth players partly because their facilities were miles better than anyone else’s. 

 

Im really struggling to remember who but there was someone on the undr the cosh pod talking about how unreal it was and I think they actually had the option for older youth players to live there if i’m not mistaken. 

 

 

All academies have a catchment area based on a travel time from their TG. If you are a team next or close to the coast you get dispensation for travel time.

I believe Southampton have a satellite centre close to Bath which enables them to essentially, extend their travel time and geographical area as they lose a lot due to nobody residing at sea. 

 

I remember listening to some former player speak about them in positive terms on UTC, but I also can't recall who it was.

[davieG]

https://www.lcfc.com/news/3068172/how-to-watch-the-under-21s-against-wolves

 

Tickets can purchased for the Wolves match, and can be found HERE, with prices of £3 for over-18s, and £1 for under-18s. Places are limited and tickets must be purchased in advance, as none will be available on the day of the game.

 

 

The fixture itself is to be broadcast live on LCFC TV, with a pre-match interview beforehand with coach Ben Petty before Matty Fryatt joins Niall McCaughan for commentary. Post-match reaction will also be shown live before the programme ends. 

[moore_94]

 

[Ryy]

1 minute ago, moore_94 said:

 

Nice to see Evans and Nyoni on the bench