Where did it go wrong for you?

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

The cracks appeared long before that Bournemouth game. That result was coming, we kept sitting back on 1-0 leads or even, bizarrely, when we were drawing.

 

The first instance I remember, as others have said, was that Norwich home match in 2019. Iheanacho was subbed before half time just when he was building up some momentum and confidence with a run in the side. Then we limped to a dull draw, showing no urgency to score a winner at all. It was a very strange game.
 

We got hammered by Man City and Liverpool after that and we never consistently looked the same team again after that. Since then we’ve shown flashes of brilliance but always followed closely by increasingly regular signs of tactical suicide, ineffective dull football  and mental fragility.

Great shout!

 

I'd forgotten this one actually! It was awful.

 

Boxing Day 2019. Disgusting.

 

Yes it was Liverpool, but the way in which we lost.

 

Edited 18 September 2022 by Matt

[ian__marshall]

4 hours ago, foxfanazer said:

Giving Rodgers a new contract when Arsenal and Spurs came sniffing

Completely agree with this. Should never have offered that extended contract so soon into his tenure. The fact that he did everything possible not to distance himself from the Arsenal job was a huge red flag and the board bought into his games. Absolutely stupid decision. Offering him the contract we did would never have fended off any of the big boys had any of them actually come in for him and I'm convinced he'd have pushed really hard for a move if such a scenario did arise. Subsequently it meant that we would always be faced with a hefty bill if the club decided that they wanted to part ways.

 

Admittedly, he may well have left had we not offered the extended deal but why keep someone who so evidently felt that they were better than the club. I have no issue with this attitude from players who join the club as if the player is as good as they think they are you get a decent level of performance out of them for a couple of years elevating the status of the club then a good fee which you can reinvest. Unfortunately the same principles don't apply to managers and you can't have the leader of a group giving off these sorts of vibes as it becomes very destabilising. 

 

In hindsight I'd have happily seen him trot off to Arsenal and us appoint a manager who actually see's their future at the club. Yes we may well not have won the FA Cup but conversely I doubt very much we'd be in the position we find ourselves in today. 

Edited 18 September 2022 by ian__marshall

[sylofox]

38 minutes ago, Viktor-LCFC said:

 

Same this was the game i was done with him, wasn't really that giddy about the football we were playing unlike most of our fan base who thought we were playing like prime Barca.

I can't even be arsed to go pub and watch them now.

[don_danbury]

2 hours ago, TJB-fox said:

Sacking him after that would have been ridiculous if we’re being truly honest. Hindsight is now a wonderful thing 

why? seemed like a good time to get rid imo

[desertfox2]

Hindsight and all that but the 2 times we finished the season with really bad form and gave up champions league football. We've had a few runs of bad form, nothing like this but those should have sounded the alarm really that we had it in us to go on really bad runs. Obviously this summer we got weaker by losing Kasper, Lookman and Fofana with only 1 having a replacement. You just can't do that. Barnes seems to be way worse now that he doesn't have lookman breathing down his neck. Then again we were supposedly looking to sign the player Lookman has replaced in Atalanta anyway so even if Rodgers had money then he would have squandered it. After last summer's signings we needed to put in a DOF and recruitment team as he can't be trusted to sign players. Now it seems he can't coach either so we just need him gone quick. 

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Liverpool - Although I think they've changed this season, low and behold, they're somewhat struggling.

Atletico.

 

Just 2 examples, it may not be all out soak up pressure and hit them in their cases but it's certainly far away from possession for the sake of possession (ala Man City and the boring style everyone seems obsessed to copy), it's possession with purpose, effective football.

 

I sure if I think deep enough there are others, but the pool is lacking to give examples because as I said in my post the majority of clubs play this way, the game is gone.

 

Besides, who says i'm talking about purely counter attacking football? You're correct, that's what I harp on about regarding our own style, that is what we were built on, but I kept getting told last season the stats shown we were high on the list of counter attacks, it's not about that, it's about us hardly getting the ball forward, it's about us have needless, boring, pointless possession for the sake of possession and doing very little with it, I wanna see forwards football, exciting, possession with purpose.

 

It might work for Man City, you can't deny they're successful, why everyone is obsessed to copy and replicate is beyond me.

 

I think fans are confused by the style of play being the issue when it's not, it isn't what's caused or causing our downfall. OK so not being interested in the ball might cut down on individual defensive errors that we are awash with but we are cut apart whether we play on the counter or are the team controlling possession.

 

When we play the better sides we don't tend to have the lions share of the ball and I'd class that as trying to defend a bit deeper, look to go more direct and play the style of football you seem to want. This was the single biggest change that Rodgers put in place in 2020/21 having had a pretty poor record vs the top sides prior to that, the result was we beat every one of the big 6 at least once that season.

 

Where our downfall has been prior to this seasons car crash has been against teams who play a low block themselves but that was where Rodgers was excellent with this squad when he first came in, pur record against teams that wanted to counter us was unbelievable for the first year he was here. Since then it's got less and less effective, most certainly away from home where we seem to combine being crap at the back with being toothless in attack when controlling possession.

 

But overall being comfortable at taking the game to teams with controlling the ball is perfectly fine and to deploy a counter attacking system against a team that will sit back on you is very difficult, it's why I see many mediocre sides struggle for consistency because they aren't able to switch it up and that's the bottom line.

 

The type of football I want to see is a mix of being able to dominate possession and hurt teams who come to park the bus and then be a massive threat against teams that will come to take the game to us, but when you are so poor defensively as we are it's all out the window now.

[iancognito]

There's not one thing it's a list of bad decisions.

 

Not selling anyone last summer  - financially - was a huge gamble and it's left us massively in the red, it should never have been risked. We went from building gradually with infrastructure in place and one player sale per year to betting it all on black. That's on the directors.

Recruitment into the club has been shocking for two years. There's at least 7 or 8 that would never have been bought pre-2018. That's on the recruitment team.

 

Mentality. We're a team of bottlers. This side lacks a real leader. Not people that shout a lot, a leader. Morgan was fairly quiet but to everyone he was "the skipper". Players leaving the club like Huth, Fuchs, Wasilewski, even Drinkwater, have been replaced by wet wipes who accept not just dropping a point but all 3. Repeatedly. Maddison and maybe Evans aside, none of the current lot get into the 2014-16 Leicester sides. There's talent there but no drive. That's on the players.

 

Also Rodgers should have gone in the summer. 5th and the cup was the best he could hope to achieve here. 3 wins in the last month masked the problems that are now coming home to roost. Bizarre tactics, negative subs, the set piece thing which is now 43 in two seasons whilst blaming everyone but himself. That's on the manager.

[Tuna]

I've been Rodgers out since early spring this year when we couldn't win a game after Liverpool, frankly the Forest FA Cup debacle was sackable in itself, and that's not even touching on our shambolic exits from European competition.

[Arkie Bennett]

5 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I said years ago, people recall Liverpool and Man City defeats across Christmas 19-20 but the week before we drew at home to Norwich 1-1 and it was a shocking performance. Since then it's been inconsistent.

 

But we haven't improved the team. Last summer's new players have not improved the team. And ultimately we have sold better players. It's not something any club can sustain.

Completely agree. The Norwich match was where it became obvious we were hugely vulnerable when playing out from the back if opponents pressed. Nearly every other team had us sussed after the Norwich match.

[ian__marshall]

3 minutes ago, Arkie Bennett said:

Completely agree. The Norwich match was where it became obvious we were hugely vulnerable when playing out from the back if opponents pressed. Nearly every other team had us sussed after the Norwich match.

Yeah, that Norwich game was a pivotal moment. We didn't look the same thereafter. It really exposed our fragility under Rodgers. 

[honeybradger]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Which successful teams play sustained counter attacking football?

It's the only way to compete with the big sides with a much lower budget. Athletico Madrid beat out Messi's Barcelona and Ronaldo's real Madrid in the league using this tactic, we won the league with a starting XI worth 25 mil. If we want to be successful we have to prioritise clean sheets first and build from there. We also want to punish team when they let us have the ball, the opposition simply aren't scared to make risky passes against us as they know we're just going to start recycling possession after a turnover and allow them to regain shape. 

 

Also can I just point out that we rarely ever score from passing out from the back. Goals usually come for us when there is a turnover of possession in the opponents half despite us spending half the time passing between the centre backs. Playing out from the back is simply ineffective the way we do it.

[lcfc_forever]

4 hours ago, sdb said:

Was that the final game of 20/21? I've never watched that game back so don't remember that specific goal, but that game is a big one. I was lucky enough to nab a ticket (despite being at the cup final) and everything went wrong. Fofana's injury but just the total lack of atmosphere and desire that day. It was like a morgue and a win would've got us CL. Rodgers putting Wilf at CB was another horrific shout too. It's actually mad how little that game is talked about.

Yep 

[CosbehFox]

Friend of mine reckons it’s the Villa League Cup semi-final that it’s never been the same since. We were incredibly unfortunate over those two legs and Nyland had the moment of his career. 
 

The thing what I think a lot of us fans forget is that in 20/21, we had a lot of injuries and Rodgers had to complete rethink how to do things. At Leeds, we had a right weird back five but we went counter attacking again. Beat Spurs doing it in December. He’s never gone back to that after and insisted on trying to the style. 
 

The owners really should have had that Legia loss as a right warning. No way should a club from the PL lose to a Polish club side. 

[shiv]

We’ve looked poor for a while to be honest but I really turned after the Southampton game.

 

The fact that since then we’ve lost 4 in a row, conceded 14 goals and are the only club in the entire league (which now includes Forest, Bournemouth and Fulham) to not win a game, says it all really.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

9 hours ago, Matt said:

Changing style.

 

I'll go back to the season after our league win we were apparently 'found out', apparently it wasn't sustainable, so we ripped that up and went down the style the majority of other clubs play, the boring, insipid, disgusting style, every team matching each other up, playing exactly the same making for a boring game period.

 

We're now been playing the tippy tappy shite, sideways, backwards, the so called 'way to play football', apparently a sustainable and 'pretty' style for 5 years now, it's clear we've been found out, so how long are we going to continue with it? Bearing in mind we instantly ripped up our old style because we'd been 'found out'.

 

I'm not sure it's ever been good, exciting, positive or pretty and if you ain't got the players to play in such a way I don't see how its particularly sustainable.

 

Many of the players we have are suited to our old style, we still sign many players largely suited to our old style, yet there is a brief from someone in the club. the board? That we want to go down the route playing in this way, the club is confused.

 

This isn't me looking back and admiring nostalgically, I just wanna see effective football, there is a time and place for the tippy tappy we are exclusively playing but there lies the problem, we're playing it exclusively. Mix it up. (That goes for the game in general)

  

To be honest, whilst I'd agree with much of this, we had to adjust our style after 2015/16. Most damagingly, we'd lost Kante - Wilf was never to that incredible standard or style despite what some had hoped and believed  - and other sides had started to negate our counter-attacking play. So, Claudio had to try to change it for which he paid the price. 

 

With Brendan Rodgers, he certainly built to start with on the squad legacy of Puel. For me, losing 4th place in the same way the second time in succesive seasons showed the huge cracks that the FA Cup triumph papered over. But increasingly, his stubborn nature, boring football, inability to change games, and alienation of others with that trait of blaming all but himself for the mistakes were hugely damaging and I was out by early this calendar year. 

Edited 18 September 2022 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[Captain...]

I've been giving Rodgers the benefit of the doubt a lot longer than most. Ultimately it comes down to not being able to resolve basic organisational errors. We've been soft as anything defending corners for 18 months and we are getting worse. Last season was a very disrupted season and there was no time between games in a hectic fixture list to work on things. After a full preseason we have gone backwards defensively. Instead of finding a way to utilise Vestegard and Soyuncu they are completely out the picture with Amartey and Ndidi preferred, despite neither being centre backs.

[walkerleeds]

Not so much a "where did it all go wrong moment", but the manner we were beaten against Villa in the League Cup SF.

 

We were weak and seemed to mentally crumble under the pressure that night. As we all know, that's not a one off either, there are plenty of examples of meek performances when we needed to step up.

[Gazza M]

Last summer with some poor transfer business and not sticking to our model of selling 1 big value player has tied us financially. Should have sold Tielemans why his stock was high. On the field we have been found out and our manager is incapable of playing a different style and his bang average signings have diluted the squad quality. Rodgers has to go for the good of everyone now. 

[Sunbury Fox]

Very interesting thread, this. Loads of really good points being made about the reasons for our downfall. But for me the more I think about it, the more I feel that the key issue is that we have gradually built a team of players who are technically proficient and good on the ball but who lack  resilience, heart, passion and a will to win. Kasper and Big Wes were the last remnants of those qualities left in the squad and now they've gone too.

 

Someone made a comment in the Faes thread yesterday that really struck a chord with me.  They commented how seeing a player fully committed and making a crunching tackle had led people to immediately regard Faes as a cult hero because we had simply forgotten what it is like to see anything like that. And it's true. It's why we are so abject at defending at set pieces - there's no aggression or desire to win the ball, compounded by a general lack of height and physicality.

 

As time has gone on there have been an increasing number of games where we've lost limply despite having 60% + possession. Even when we're losing by a single goal within the last few minutes there is no urgency or never say die attitude. The players simply continue to play in the laborious patterns that Rodgers has drummed into them. They're like robots - predictable and passionless.

 

Even if we change manager I can't see this group of players scrapping their way out of a relegation dog fight. One thing that Rodgers was right about was the need for a refresh. I'm glad we didn't give him cash for it, though, as he would have wasted it on more players like we already have, when what we really need is stronger, more athletic, physical players with leadership qualities. As it looks like we don't have funds to buy those players for the reasons discussed above, our fate this season is, sadly,  probably sealed. 

Edited 18 September 2022 by Sunbury Fox

[Chrysalis]

I feel when we lost "the boss" may have been the turning point but it took a while for it to start hitting us significantly on the pitch and for the finances to catch up.

Edited 19 September 2022 by Chrysalis

[Claudio Fannieri]

The Liverpool and Man City hammerings over the Christmas period of 2019 took a lot out of us and we never seemed the same team after that, we became a lot more pragmatic in our approach. 
 

lLast seasons dire show in the Europa league, our turgid football and then the capitulation at Forest, followed by Brendan throwing a load of players under the bus was the end for me. 

[Dan LCFC]

I think we've been largely bailed out by Vardy and a few others for years. It's created an illusion of a smart club, rather than an actual smart club.

[Dan LCFC]

20 hours ago, Bilo said:

That's where it really started for me. But the 0-4 defeat to Liverpool on Boxing Day definitely had a psychological impact. 

That, losing over two legs Villa side we were obviously better than, losing to Southampton and Burnley in consecutive weeks from winning positions in January, losing at a disgustingly bad Norwich.

 

I actually think we've had more bad games under Rodgers than good now. I think what you're seeing now is what a culture of capitulation really can lead to. I'm not saying it to be hyperbolic but I truly cannot think of a more spineless team that I have ever seen in football. It stems from the manager and it's now ingrained into the squad. It's going to take some serious leadership to turn that around.

Edited 19 September 2022 by Dan LCFC

[Dan LCFC]

20 hours ago, filbertway said:

The smashings by Liverpool and Man City changed Rodgers approach to games and he became more cautious, that's when things changed on the pitch. We suddenly looked less sure of ourselves and we became more conscious of having something to lose and that really permeated into the players.

 

It started going wrong off the pitch the moment he arrived, he's slowly undone and dismantled what appeared to be one of the best functioning clubs in the top flight. He won't be fully to blame, but it's quite clear he was given a lot of freedom by Rudkin and his judgement was trusted.

 

For me, Rudkin should be walking as well. His faith and trust in Rodgers over this period of going backwards is ultimately on him. 

The fact he ever had the power to proves it was an illusion for me sadly. That should always come from above him if we're going to have a DoF.

[Collymore]

The warning signs might have been there for a while. I remember when we were doing very well a couple of seasons ago. We had some unbelievable stats where we were off the charts with our goals to shot ratio, it was way above anyone else in Europe IIRC. I remember thinking at the time that this isn't going to continue, it can't and when it doesn't we'd actually be in a bit of a mess.

 

We also relied on Vardy quite a bit with his 20 goals a season. If you took his goals out it was a different story. 

 

I think the biggest turning point was Rodgers signing that new contract. Never seemed quite right since and it's coming back to haunt us now.