Group B: England, Iran, USA, Wales

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

I’ll pass judgement on Spain until they play better opposition

 

Whilst this is fair, I don't think Spain are being given quite enough for credit for how bad they made Costa Rica look. Their movement off the ball was just staggering, there are few teams in the world that could have stuck with them.

 

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

I wouldn’t say their game is pass heavy in the same way as England

 

Spain made 1045 passes against Costa Rica. England made 797 passes against Iran (and 541 against the USA but I think we'd agree that's not a like-for-like comparison.)

 

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Their passing is very productive.

 

And that's exactly my point. I hate the term "passing for the sakes of it." There isn't a football team on the planet that passes "for the sakes of it." Not a single team anywhere in top flight professional football or on the international stage is on the pitch going "come on guys, a few more passes and we'll break the record!" 

 

Passing "FoR tHe SaKeS oF iT" is fundamentally linked to three things, the ability of the player on the ball, the patterns of play they've had coached and the availability of a pass in front of him. Too often Leicester's players get criticised, for example, for passing sideways or passing it around the defence but when you actually look and see who's offering Amartey or Ndidi a pass that they can actually play you'll see a whole pitch full of blue shirts stood static being marked.

England are the same, their movement off the ball is dreadful, they don't have particularly intricate patterns of play and these are things you coach. You've got some absolute great technical players available to you. A team with Foden, Maddison (I appreciate he might be injured?), Grealish, Saka, Sterling, Bellingham and co shouldn't struggle to pass and move but the coaching just isn't there. Whilst I think, in British football, we're obviously a ways behind the production of players to play this way compared to Spain - you also have to acknowledge that Grealish, Foden and Sterling in particular have all had coaching from probably the best possession-based coach in history and have all played breath-taking football at club level in that regard.

[foxfanazer]

He's quite simply just a poor tactician and sticks with the same old trusted but tired players. How Kane played the full 90 last night is beyond me!

[Super_horns]

17 minutes ago, The Bear said:

He's a pragmatic, defensive, results first manager. Always has been which is why he was a crap club manager. 

He seemed more happier after last night than when we won 6-2 which says  something  about his mind set maybe .

 

Done well to get a squad together that want to play for each other etc but are doubts over his in game management.

[Pliskin]

18 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

Late 30's?  Bale is 33, Allen is 32 and Ramsey is 31.  Hardly pushing 40.  Although it is staggering how washed that trio look.

 

All is not lost for Wales yet though.  England are usually atrocious in Home Nations games so I wouldn't be surprised if we play with the same pre-season friendly tempo as we did against Scotland last summer.  Especially if we get the job done tonight.  

Bale is still only 33?? Jesus, he ambled around that pitch like he’s 63!

[Finnegan]

5 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Bale is still only 33?? Jesus, he ambled around that pitch like he’s 63!

 

Bale and Ramsey have had significant poor luck with their physical health during their careers and it's obviously taken a toll. They're both a long, long way beyond their prime. Bale's got fantastic technical ability but his athleticism was still obviously a large part of his game, he's never quite been the same threat since his pace went.

 

And Ramsey's just finished. He's not had consistent football for years. I still insist he was hands down the best British born centre mid around (granted the competition wasn't as good as it might be now) in his prime, I'll die on that hill. He was absolutely brilliant at his best, genuinely one of the best performing players at Euro 16. But that Ramsey's long gone.

 

Edited 26 November 2022 by Finnegan

[coolhandfox]

You have to think England know a draw would put them baring a unlikely 4-0 against Wales.

 

Safe first football, but the group stage is just about getting the job done.

 

 

I don't like it, but can understand it.

 

Handbrake will come off against Wales.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, coolhandfox said:

Handbrake will come off against Wales.

 

I think this is likely. You'd imagine he'll rotate a bit surely. If the likes of Foden, Rashford, Grealish, etc all come in and are given the chance to impress and play for a place I think we'll get creamed.

[Bert]

2 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

You have to think England know a draw would put them baring a unlikely 4-0 against Wales.

 

Safe first football, but the group stage is just about getting the job done.

 

 

I don't like it, but can understand it.

 

Handbrake will come off against Wales.

We need to win the group. Winning the group gives us an extra day to prepare. 

[davieG]

57 minutes ago, ithuriel said:

Why are people so shocked we were terrible going into this competition and had a great starting game against Iran but have quickly settled back into the Southgate malaise, we should get through the group stage but we will not win this.

Even v Iran the 1st half wasn't great I almost stopped watching.

[Pliskin]

16 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Bale and Ramsey have had significant poor luck with their physical health during their careers and it's obviously taken a toll. They're both a long, long way beyond their prime. Bale's got fantastic technical ability but his athleticism was still obviously a large part of his game, he's never quite been the same threat since his pace went.

 

And Ramsey's just finished. He's not had consistent football for years. I still insist he was hands down the best British born centre mid around (granted the competition wasn't as good as it might be now) in his prime, I'll die on that hill. He was absolutely brilliant at his best, genuinely one of the best performing players at Euro 16. But that Ramsey's long gone.

 

Seems very strange, it’s not like he’s ancient, and genetics seem kind to Bale, he’s a specimen of a man so I’m just shocked he looks so crocked. 
 

I completely agree with your opinion of Ramsay, he was stunning in his prime, I was gutted when he rejoined Cardiff after his injury, I would have loved to have had him here for a few months. 

[Daggers]

Monday: Ingurland our gun winz the kup

 

Friday: Ingurland wurst teem eva

 

A week is a long time in Ingurland.

[yorkie1999]

22 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I think this is likely. You'd imagine he'll rotate a bit surely. If the likes of Foden, Rashford, Grealish, etc all come in and are given the chance to impress and play for a place I think we'll get creamed.

Plus, you've got Ward in goal.

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Seems very strange, it’s not like he’s ancient, and genetics seem kind to Bale, he’s a specimen of a man so I’m just shocked he looks so crocked.

 

But he's had a lot of injuries. There's lots of ways to be blessed physically, aren't there? Someone like Ronaldo has it all, he's an incredible athlete but he's also been blessed to have reasonably few injuries over the years.

 

For whatever reason, some people's bodies are just more vulnerable to muscle and ligament damage compared to others. Bale's been absolutely wrecked over the years, he's also had a major high-profile fall out with a manager that had him barely kick a ball for years. Both have had a heavy impact on his fitness and pace. 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

You've got some absolute great technical players available to you. A team with Foden, Maddison (I appreciate he might be injured?), Grealish, Saka, Sterling, Bellingham and co shouldn't struggle to pass and move

Exactly, and they clearly don't struggle to do it - every week they do fantastic high-speed imaginative stuff for their clubs.

I can only think of three reasons why they wouldn't do it for England:

 

1) The opponents are too good

2) They're too nervous on the world stage

3) They're told not to.

 

1) might be true against Brazil or France I guess, but even then it's just the same players they do it against every week.

 

2) seems unlikely for players most of whom who play in the most high-profile league in the world and even if it were true it'd be on the manager to sort it.

 

3) seems the only likely reason.

[coolhandfox]

34 minutes ago, Bert said:

We need to win the group. Winning the group gives us an extra day to prepare. 

I'm pretty confident we will.

[J. James]

1 hour ago, foxfanazer said:

He's quite simply just a poor tactician and sticks with the same old trusted but tired players. How Kane played the full 90 last night is beyond me!

Totally agree, Classic Southgate, Kane, Sterling and Mount are beyond criticism for this dour, defensive, scared to lose fool.

Kane was playing or played as a midfielder and often a defensively deep midfielder at that!

He was ineffective and clumsy and had that been Rashford or Wilson they would have been off at half time.

Should we (at best) win a penalty shoot out in the quarters a depleted France will wipe the floor with his hopeless favourites and tactically hamstrung team.

[Corky]

Not bringing somebody on because they play in a slightly different position for their club is incredible. Does he actually want a team of robots who can only do one thing?

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Bale and Ramsey have had significant poor luck with their physical health during their careers and it's obviously taken a toll. They're both a long, long way beyond their prime. Bale's got fantastic technical ability but his athleticism was still obviously a large part of his game, he's never quite been the same threat since his pace went.

 

And Ramsey's just finished. He's not had consistent football for years. I still insist he was hands down the best British born centre mid around (granted the competition wasn't as good as it might be now) in his prime, I'll die on that hill. He was absolutely brilliant at his best, genuinely one of the best performing players at Euro 16. But that Ramsey's long gone.

 

You’re not wrong. 
 

Bale probably should have left Madrid a bit sooner but that’s easier said than done. It’s a shame because there was a period when he was at spurs where he was unplayable, and comfortably as good as Ronaldo and Messi. Fernando Torres also suffered in the same way, like you say everyone is different and Injuries really can cripple the best of players.

[Fear Of The Fox]

Southgate is constantly playing with fire. He needs to be careful against Wales. It doesn't take too much for a game to go all wrong. 

[Pliskin]

The head coach will forever be Englands problem. Southgate was a horrendous club manager, and he’s a horrible international coach too.

 

This England side is as stacked as it’s ever been with real quality to choose from, but Southgate will continue to pick the wrong players, play the wrong system and make the wrong choices. 
 

There’s speed to burn, technicians and Flair players. Should be no excuses for not getting to at least the semi finals.  

[TJQuik]

51 minutes ago, J. James said:

Totally agree, Classic Southgate, Kane, Sterling and Mount are beyond criticism for this dour, defensive, scared to lose fool.

Kane was playing or played as a midfielder and often a defensively deep midfielder at that!

He was ineffective and clumsy and had that been Rashford or Wilson they would have been off at half time.

Should we (at best) win a penalty shoot out in the quarters a depleted France will wipe the floor with his hopeless favourites and tactically hamstrung team.

It's France who we'd play in the quarters, if we need a penalty shootout to beat Senegal or Ecuador then Southgate should be fired on the spot

[MattFox]

48 minutes ago, Corky said:

Not bringing somebody on because they play in a slightly different position for their club is incredible. Does he actually want a team of robots who can only do one thing?

He plays other players in different positions too so it’s clearly a stupid excuse too

[KFS]

I thought they were a unique group of people to elect an orange idiot and a man who can’t string a sentence together; but voting for Pulisic for man of the match over a clear winner in Harry Maguire was something else. Just like when NBC Sports report when he makes the bench for Chelsea. The guy doesn’t get in England’s starting line up. Absolute delusions of grandeur 

[The_77]

1 hour ago, KFS said:

I thought they were a unique group of people to elect an orange idiot and a man who can’t string a sentence together; but voting for Pulisic for man of the match over a clear winner in Harry Maguire was something else. Just like when NBC Sports report when he makes the bench for Chelsea. The guy doesn’t get in England’s starting line up. Absolute delusions of grandeur 

Maybe you should have gone back home for the tournament, you’re really taking this poorly.  
 

Yeah, the coverage of Pulisic is a bit over the top and he’s clearly not a great player in the PL. But the thing about Pulisic is: he is most certainly a great player for the United States. 
 

Most Brits have no idea what goes on in the Western Hemisphere when it comes to football. Pulisic plays his heart out for his country and spends 90 minutes getting hacked to death in CONCACAF for that privilege. 
 

During the 2018 WC qualifying campaign debacle, a teenage Pulisic was doing everything he could for the team and put on several heroic performances only to be let down by the worst collection of American players in decades and a total breakdown in the management.
 

So yeah, a lot of Americans care about whether or not Pulisic is on the bench and you can’t blame them for a second. 
 

And who really gives a flying fuch over who wins the Budweiser Man of the Match for a group stage game? 

Edited 26 November 2022 by The_77
Typo

[J. James]

1 hour ago, TJQuik said:

It's France who we'd play in the quarters, if we need a penalty shootout to beat Senegal or Ecuador then Southgate should be fired on the spot

Yeah thats what l meant, l dont believe we can beat either of those two in normal or even extra time and Southgate wouldn't be sacked if we lost 4-0 to either!