Is anyone genuinely going to boycott?

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

So in essence what we’re saying is we celebrate and promote the LGBTQ cause so much in this country to stand up for people in other countries even though the people in said countries are more than happy with how they are living? Again who are we as a country, or as members of the gay community to decide that someone’s religious views or laws are wrong when it doesn’t affect us?

That really should read "... even though *not all or most* people in said countries are happy with how they are living", because that would be accurate.

 

And to answer the final question, I find it rather strange to see people with empathy that clearly doesn't extend beyond their line of sight ("doesn't affect us"), but this is far from the only issue where I've seen such self interest and disregard for the plight of strangers. Humans being tribal again, I guess.

[K1FOX]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That really should read "... even though *not all or most* people in said countries are happy with how they are living", because that would be accurate.

 

And to answer the final question, I find it rather strange to see people with empathy that clearly doesn't extend beyond their line of sight ("doesn't affect us"), but this is far from the only issue where I've seen such self interest and disregard for the plight of strangers. Humans being tribal again, I guess.

Let’s just use Qatar as the example. Are people in Qatar saying they’re being persecuted for being gay and need the western worlds help? Or have the western world decided they will use the World Cup to push this agenda on a country who has no interest in the matter? 
 

Again if the issue is with hosting the World Cup in this country then that issue lies with FIFA. Protest against FIFA by all means.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, K1FOX said:

Let’s just use Qatar as the example. Are people in Qatar saying they’re being persecuted for being gay and need the western worlds help? Or have the western world decided they will use the World Cup to push this agenda on a country who has no interest in the matter? 
 

Again if the issue is with hosting the World Cup in this country then that issue lies with FIFA. Protest against FIFA by all means.

Yes. I can find specific examples if needed but this is a Saturday morning over here.

 

And I absolutely agree that FIFA are culpable themselves, not only Qatar, for this tournament being held in this place. I said so when the announcement was made way back when that both Russia and Qatar were sportswashing and FIFA were going to let them do it because of financial corruption.

 

NB. I know you want to bring this back to Qatar, but the fact is that it's bigger than that. It's one small part of an issue that has been running for centuries, and that is the Abrahamic religious (mostly) state policy being able to have power over people's lives in a way that is entirely inimical to what the religions are supposed to stand for in the first place and to the idea of personal freedom.

[hackenbacker]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I can find specific examples if needed but this is a Saturday morning over here.

talking of examples "One in five LGBT people (21 per cent) have experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation and/or gender identity in the last 12 months" YouGov poll of 5000 in UK. I can guarantee that even though homosexuality here is outlawed in law one in five LGBT people have NOT experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation here AND before you come up with a smart answer such as the laws drive LGBT people underground as i have said in a previous post obviously effeminate (males) or non-effeminate (female) persons are common sights in public in Qatar. The difference between the UK and Qatar (ignoring the law) is that the general public don't care about LGBT people in Qatar where in certain place in the UK LGBT people who display effeminate or non-effeminate characteristics  are open to ridicule or in come cases violence.  

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, hackenbacker said:

talking of examples "One in five LGBT people (21 per cent) have experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation and/or gender identity in the last 12 months" YouGov poll of 5000 in UK. I can guarantee that even though homosexuality here is outlawed in law one in five LGBT people have NOT experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation here AND before you come up with a smart answer such as the laws drive LGBT people underground as i have said in a previous post obviously effeminate (males) or non-effeminate (female) persons are common sights in public in Qatar. The difference between the UK and Qatar (ignoring the law) is that the general public don't care about LGBT people in Qatar where in certain place in the UK LGBT people who display effeminate or non-effeminate characteristics  are open to ridicule or in come cases violence.  

You make a good point tbh - LGBT folks may not be criminalised in the UK as in Qatar, but they are still subject to targeting, a point I made upstream too.

 

Believe me, I'd like to see an end to both methods of discrimination, again a point I have made further back. For me, this is just one piece of a much bigger picture, and I can't speak for everyone else but I'm not singling out Qatar as a solely bad player here, just as one step on a rather long road.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

5 hours ago, K1FOX said:

People of Qatar are at peace with their religion and the laws of their religion and the laws of their country - nothing anyone from Qatar has said would dispute this fact as far as I’m aware

Genuine question here, you clearly know a lot more about Qatar than I do - what would be the situation for someone from Qatar who did say something that disputed this fact? Clearly there are countries (Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, increasingly the UK if the current government's policies keep going the way they are) where you can't criticise or you'll be arrested, imprisoned or worse - is Qatar one of them or is the government not fussed about a bit of criticism, like - I don't know, New Zealand, or Belgium?

[hejammy]

I think the old adage of 'get your own house in order' comes into play here. If you speak to others around the world the one issue they have with the UK (and USA) is that we always want to meddle in other people's business even when help isn't wanted. However when countries actually need help we don't (Yemen, Palestine and to a certain degree Ukraine). 

 

Like others have said, speak to Qatari nationals, they love their country and even the migrants have nothing but good things to say about it. Why not cause this much of an issue when it was in Russia? 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I think the old adage of 'get your own house in order' comes into play here. If you speak to others around the world the one issue they have with the UK (and USA) is that we always want to meddle in other people's business even when help isn't wanted. However when countries actually need help we don't (Yemen, Palestine and to a certain degree Ukraine). 

 

Like others have said, speak to Qatari nationals, they love their country and even the migrants have nothing but good things to say about it. Why not cause this much of an issue when it was in Russia? 

IMO it really should have done, especially given some of the rhetoric that the Russian government are putting out right now.

 

I definitely get the cynicism about the western world only taking a hand in matters if it suits them, though. Realpolitik sucks.

[K1FOX]

16 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Genuine question here, you clearly know a lot more about Qatar than I do - what would be the situation for someone from Qatar who did say something that disputed this fact? Clearly there are countries (Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, increasingly the UK if the current government's policies keep going the way they are) where you can't criticise or you'll be arrested, imprisoned or worse - is Qatar one of them or is the government not fussed about a bit of criticism, like - I don't know, New Zealand, or Belgium?

Qatar was just an example because it’s the hot topic at the moment and I don’t claim to know all about Qatar but I’d like to think they wouldn’t be put on a stage and stoned to death if that’s what you’re thinking. By all accounts people there love the way of life and don’t want outside interference. Whether they’re pretending or they actually have no issue with anything isn’t for the western world to try and interpret. 

[K1FOX]

1 hour ago, hackenbacker said:

talking of examples "One in five LGBT people (21 per cent) have experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation and/or gender identity in the last 12 months" YouGov poll of 5000 in UK. I can guarantee that even though homosexuality here is outlawed in law one in five LGBT people have NOT experienced a hate crime or incident due to their sexual orientation here AND before you come up with a smart answer such as the laws drive LGBT people underground as i have said in a previous post obviously effeminate (males) or non-effeminate (female) persons are common sights in public in Qatar. The difference between the UK and Qatar (ignoring the law) is that the general public don't care about LGBT people in Qatar where in certain place in the UK LGBT people who display effeminate or non-effeminate characteristics  are open to ridicule or in come cases violence.  

Maybe then it’s a case of if you throw something in peoples faces so much (rainbow campaigns) it can lead to people resenting the campaigns and not necessarily the community.   Is that resentment then homophobia or just a dislike of LGBTQ taking over sport and many other things it has no direct bearing on?

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

2 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

I’d like to think they wouldn’t be put on a stage and stoned to death if that’s what you’re thinking

Er, no, I wasn't thinking that.

 

But your point that people from Qatar don't criticise the place might be a valid one if they're free to do so, whereas it might be less valid if they'd get arrested if they did.

 

3 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

By all accounts people there love the way of life and don’t want outside interference

If by 'people there' you mean the small percentage of the population who are citizens, I expect they do love the way of life and I'm sure they don't want outside interference.

[shade]

6 hours ago, K1FOX said:

But why’s it the people in this countries right to tell other countries how they should act? 
 

Let’s take Qatar as an example - People of Qatar are at peace with their religion and the laws of their religion and the laws of their country - nothing anyone from Qatar has said would dispute this fact as far as I’m aware. So why are the LGBTQ community (I include the footballers and football teams participating in this) taking the rainbow demonstrations to their country? Now you may say they’re hosting the World Cup? Well in that case boycott and demonstrate against FIFA for giving them the World Cup, don’t attack Qataris for sticking by their laws and their religion and having the backbone to do this. Lighting up Wembley arch and tweeting about it today serves what purpose?

They can tell people how to act because they have reached ultimate morality. If you were born in other places or other times, you would have a completely different set of culturally imposed morals, but this, this time and place right here, this is the correct set of moral opinions. We've done it, we've transcended.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

24 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Like others have said, speak to Qatari nationals, they love their country and even the migrants have nothing but good things to say about it

'Even' the migrants?

Interesting way of putting it.

[K1FOX]

1 minute ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Er, no, I wasn't thinking that.

 

But your point that people from Qatar don't criticise the place might be a valid one if they're free to do so, whereas it might be less valid if they'd get arrested if they did.

 

If by 'people there' you mean the small percentage of the population who are citizens, I expect they do love the way of life and I'm sure they don't want outside interference.

No I mean all the people there and even those who have migrated there by choice to work. They’ve gone there because it’s a Muslim country that ties in with their beliefs and is tolerant of what is right and wrong according to them. I think what a lot of the western world fail to understand is just how strong the belief of a Muslim is. The whole world could be against them but it’d be tough to budge them as we’ve seen to a certain extent during this World Cup.

[RumbleFox]

9 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Maybe then it’s a case of if you throw something in peoples faces so much (rainbow campaigns) it can lead to people resenting the campaigns and not necessarily the community.   Is that resentment then homophobia or just a dislike of LGBTQ taking over sport and many other things it has no direct bearing on?

How has lgbtq taken over football? Genuine question.  

[K1FOX]

2 minutes ago, shade said:

They can tell people how to act because they have reached ultimate morality. If you were born in other places or other times, you would have a completely different set of culturally imposed morals, but this, this time and place right here, this is the correct set of moral opinions. We've done it, we've transcended.

I read something someone said yesterday, ‘Who are you to teach us morality when you don’t even know if you’re male or female’. 
 

I mean if you’re finding yourself fair enough but don’t tell others what’s right and wrong.

[K1FOX]

2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

How has lgbtq taken over football? Genuine question.  

Sorry I mean the campaigns. You cannot watch football without rainbows being shoved in your face. World Cup has highlighted this. Am I wrong? 

[shade]

1 minute ago, K1FOX said:

I read something someone said yesterday, ‘Who are you to teach us morality when you don’t even know if you’re male or female’. 
 

I mean if you’re finding yourself fair enough but don’t tell others what’s right and wrong.

don't get me started on the social contagion of transsexualism, recognised as a mental disorder by the WHO until not that long ago, but now is seemingly ever present in society. (no really, don't get me started on it, I'm limited to 10 replies per day and banned from general chat section, still! 😅)

[CosbehFox]

5 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

No I mean all the people there and even those who have migrated there by choice to work. They’ve gone there because it’s a Muslim country that ties in with their beliefs and is tolerant of what is right and wrong according to them. I think what a lot of the western world fail to understand is just how strong the belief of a Muslim is. The whole world could be against them but it’d be tough to budge them as we’ve seen to a certain extent during this World Cup.

Worth pointing out here that if Qatar population:- 40% is Arab, 9% Egyptian, 14% other and 36% South Asian  

As a result 65.5% of Qatar’s population is Muslim. 

So to say ‘all the people there’ is plain wrong. There is roughly around a million non Muslims living in Qatar

[RumbleFox]

8 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Sorry I mean the campaigns. You cannot watch football without rainbows being shoved in your face. World Cup has highlighted this. Am I wrong? 

And why does that bother you? I can’t say it affects me one tiny bit. And you did say take over. There’s like one openly gay professional footballer in the entire world.  Zero openly LGBTQ managers, zero LGBTQ owners. Zero representation at board or governing body level. I’m a straight man, I don’t have “an agenda” but I genuinely can’t fathom why some “rainbows” would offend anyone. To me they represent a positive movement towards better representation and equality. What is it exactly that makes you feel uncomfortable about the campaigns? Why do they bother you? I’m genuinely interested to know why and I thank you for discussing this. 

Edited 26 November 2022 by RumbleFox

[hejammy]

15 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

'Even' the migrants?

Interesting way of putting it.

Oh come on behave! From the whole post the way "you perceive" I've put a slant on the word migrants you've chosen to comment on? No comment on the actual content? 

Edited 26 November 2022 by hejammy

[shade]

Just now, RumbleFox said:

And why does that bother you? I can’t say it affects me one tiny bit. And you did say take over. There’s like one openly gay professional footballer in the entire world.  Zero opening LGBTQ managers, zero LGBTQ owners. Zero representation at board or governing body level. I’m a a straight man, I don’t have “an agenda” but I genuinely can’t fathom why some “rainbows” would offend anyone. To me they represent a positive movement towards better representation and equality. What is it exactly that makes you feel uncomfortable about the campaigns? Why do they bother you? I’m genuinely interested to know why and I thank you for discussing this. 

can I address this issue of why there aren't openly gay footballers, and it's a genuine answer, not a flippant joke. homosexual men are attracted to men, footballers share changing rooms with other footballers and walk around with their majestic penises (penii?) hanging out. it creates a problem, both parties would feel uncomfortable, would you have females walking around in the changing rooms with naked men?

 

The narrative is pushed by the agenda pushers that footballers don't come out because of society, when really it's for their own, and their teammates feelings of ease.

[RumbleFox]

3 minutes ago, shade said:

can I address this issue of why there aren't openly gay footballers, and it's a genuine answer, not a flippant joke. homosexual men are attracted to men, footballers share changing rooms with other footballers and walk around with their majestic penises (penii?) hanging out. it creates a problem, both parties would feel uncomfortable, would you have females walking around in the changing rooms with naked men?

 

The narrative is pushed by the agenda pushers that footballers don't come out because of society, when really it's for their own, and their teammates feelings of ease.

Hahaha. That’s probably post of the decade. 

Edited 26 November 2022 by RumbleFox

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, shade said:

They can tell people how to act because they have reached ultimate morality. If you were born in other places or other times, you would have a completely different set of culturally imposed morals, but this, this time and place right here, this is the correct set of moral opinions. We've done it, we've transcended.

Please, clear away the straw before someone lights a match.

 

No one is or should be suggesting a moral peak has been reached, rather it's a continual process whereby folks might not actually end up being treated like second-class citizens simply because of who they choose to love as consenting adults.

 

20 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

No I mean all the people there and even those who have migrated there by choice to work. They’ve gone there because it’s a Muslim country that ties in with their beliefs and is tolerant of what is right and wrong according to them. I think what a lot of the western world fail to understand is just how strong the belief of a Muslim is. The whole world could be against them but it’d be tough to budge them as we’ve seen to a certain extent during this World Cup.

There's no fanatic like an Abrahamic fanatic, it's true.

 

Unfortunately numerous examples exist where that is a weakness to the continued progress of our species, not a strength.

 

13 minutes ago, shade said:

don't get me started on the social contagion of transsexualism, recognised as a mental disorder by the WHO until not that long ago, but now is seemingly ever present in society. (no really, don't get me started on it, I'm limited to 10 replies per day and banned from general chat section, still! 😅)

Yes, the progress towards people being able to have the freedom to adapt to the gender identity they feel more mentally comfortable with rather than being consigned by society to the closet or a mental hospital is truly terrible, isn't it?

 

7 minutes ago, shade said:

can I address this issue of why there aren't openly gay footballers, and it's a genuine answer, not a flippant joke. homosexual men are attracted to men, footballers share changing rooms with other footballers and walk around with their majestic penises (penii?) hanging out. it creates a problem, both parties would feel uncomfortable, would you have females walking around in the changing rooms with naked men?

 

The narrative is pushed by the agenda pushers that footballers don't come out because of society, when really it's for their own, and their teammates feelings of ease.

...so the judgement of peers is still a problem, then.

Edited 26 November 2022 by leicsmac

[K1FOX]

13 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Worth pointing out here that if Qatar population:- 40% is Arab, 9% Egyptian, 14% other and 36% South Asian  

As a result 65.5% of Qatar’s population is Muslim. 

So to say ‘all the people there’ is plain wrong. There is roughly around a million non Muslims living in Qatar

Brilliant. What a great multicultural place. How many of this million have an issue in Qatar?