Southgate Out!

[coolhandfox]

Southgate good talker/politician and good a keeping a happy camp.

 

Tactical awareness of a sandwich.

 

[Otis]

The trouble is , is that he nor his captain are not winners so doesn't have the ruthless winning mentally. He gets side tracked with politics which distract the players from the actual purpose of the competition. He won't play individuals who are in form and persists with his favourites who don't perform when push comes to shove. And he's not a winner. 

[Tommy Fresh]

24 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Southgate good talker/politician and good a keeping a happy camp.

 

Tactical awareness of a sandwich.

 

Capello and Sven tactially superior with far more experience but neither got further than him. 

[Tommy Fresh]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

I’m not at all surprised:

 

The issue is just as much about the nepotistic FA as anything else.

Southgate is up the arris of the FA

We tend to reward losers in the UK nowadays

 

On the plus side, we’ll qualify for the tournament with no problems.

On the negative side, we’ll see far more of Mason Mount and nothing of Maddison. And we’ll give praise to Southgate and the squad for ‘having a good go’ when we lose next time to a top international side.

It’s the English way 

 

You might actually see more of Maddison now the World Cup is done, now he can start bedding in players with the next Euros in mind and building a familiar squad to work with. Also rewarding losers? you were battering them for dishing out titles to Raducanu for winning something, so no doubt you'd of asked where Southgates motivation was had we won this and gave him a new 6 year deal.

[kingkisnorbo]

I’m no Southgate fan but the hyperbole getting thrown around in here is nonsense. The Capello years were absolutely turgid. An unmitigated black hole for English football. Sven was marginally better.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tommy Fresh said:

You might actually see more of Maddison now the World Cup is done, now he can start bedding in players with the next Euros in mind and building a familiar squad to work with. Also rewarding losers? you were battering them for dishing out titles to Raducanu for winning something, so no doubt you'd of asked where Southgates motivation was had we won this and gave him a new 6 year deal.

We rewards losers and praise people for having a good go, typical snowflake woke modern England. Also, Euro 96 was the greatest tournament ever and the proudest I've ever been of England. The logic is bulletproof.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

I'm not interested in comparing Southgate to Hodgson, or Capello, or McLaren, or Sven, or Keegan. That's a low bar that any half decent manager should clear. And I'll admit that Southgate has at least done a half decent job. But I don't think he's capable making this England squad more than the sum of its parts and winning games against the top nations. Y'know, like Morocco managed to do twice in this World Cup, or like Croatia continue to do at nearly every major tournament.

[Tommy Fresh]

4 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I'm not interested in comparing Southgate to Hodgson, or Capello, or McLaren, or Sven, or Keegan. That's a low bar that any half decent manager should clear. And I'll admit that Southgate has at least done a half decent job. But I don't think he's capable making this England squad more than the sum of its parts and winning games against the top nations. Y'know, like Morocco managed to do twice in this World Cup, or like Croatia continue to do at nearly every major tournament.

The point is Sven and Capello were decent managers though is it not? They just proved how being considered a better manager is clearly not all you need to be to manage internationally. I do think we could do better than Southgate, and I've never been a big fan but like you I'll admit that results wise he's not done a bad job really. Some people just love to batter the bloke as if there's been an abudance of managers with better tournament records prior to him.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

The point is Sven and Capello were decent managers though is it not? They just proved how being considered a better manager is clearly not all you need to be to manage internationally. I do think we could do better than Southgate, and I've never been a big fan but like you I'll admit that results wise he's not done a bad job really. Some people just love to batter the bloke as if there's been an abudance of managers with better tournament records prior to him.

All I'm saying is we need to judge Southgate on his own merits. Forget the others. It's ok saying "look at how we've improved since the mess Hodgson & co. left us in", but it's really just damning with faint praise. Even I could've improved on Hodgson.

[Tommy Fresh]

2 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

All I'm saying is we need to judge Southgate on his own merits. Forget the others. It's ok saying "look at how we've improved since the mess Hodgson & co. left us in", but it's really just damning with faint praise. Even I could've improved on Hodgson.

Oh yeah I haven't any issue with what you've said but there's been numerous posters yearning for previous managers and tournament performances where we've not gotten as far as Southgate has managed.

[UHDrive]

£5 million per year for travelling around the country watching football games. 

 

That'll do it pig, that'll do.

[coolhandfox]

3 hours ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Capello and Sven tactially superior with far more experience but neither got further than him. 

Capello was a bust flush by the time he got the England job, he method where outdated and could handle modern players.

 

Sven was better than Southgate for me.

[Dan LCFC]

4 hours ago, Col city fan said:

This World Cup final shows really well that the England team haven’t really progressed at all. 
The Argies are making the French look a very very average side. Why? Because they have some good players but TACTICALLY, their manager has so far got it absolutely spot on.

Griezmann has done nothing, Mbappe has been rendered impotent. The French haven’t had a single shot.

What do we do? Praise Southgate and his team for having ‘progressed’. Stated that ‘it’ll be ours next time’ and allowed Southgate to manage the team for another tournament.

What a load of utter bollox. 
I genuinely don’t think I’ll see England win a tournament in my lifetime. 
Progress, my arse.

Progress is easier to measure at club level where you play frequently. Tournaments are infrequent. You can't really take each one as progress from one to another. They're each to their own.

 

France will probably part with Deschamps despite making two WC finals and winning one of them. England are sticking with Southgate on the back of going out in the quarters. Like I keep saying, until we think like a top side we won't be one.

[Tommy Fresh]

34 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Capello was a bust flush by the time he got the England job, he method where outdated and could handle modern players.

 

Sven was better than Southgate for me.

Didnt Capello just come off the back of the Madrid job? Not exactly a busted flush, he just couldn't galvinise or create a good atmosphere within the England squad, which is a big thing considering how little time they spend with them. On Sven the bloke had probably just as good of a squad and actually probably the best English defence we've had or will have for some considerable time. Southgate has matched his record and passed him twice, but if you'd prefer Sven then fair play.

[Tielemans63]

Confident we can retain our Fair Play champions title in four years time with Gareth at the helm. 

 

 

[coolhandfox]

37 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Didnt Capello just come off the back of the Madrid job? Not exactly a busted flush, he just couldn't galvinise or create a good atmosphere within the England squad, which is a big thing considering how little time they spend with them. On Sven the bloke had probably just as good of a squad and actually probably the best English defence we've had or will have for some considerable time. Southgate has matched his record and passed him twice, but if you'd prefer Sven then fair play.

Capello was a man out of his time period the world of football had moved on, proven by his jobs post England.

 

Sven was a better tactical manager than Southgate, but Southgate is a better man manager, both did an OK job.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Col city fan]

39 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Capello was a man out of his time period the world of football had moved on, proven by his jobs post England.

 

Sven was a better tactical manager than Southgate, but Southgate is a better man manager, both did an OK job.

 

 

 

 

Capello wasn’t a busted flush at that point. He was a hugely successful football manager and his reputation preceded him in terms of his tactical acumen.

I remember it well. He was a strict disciplinarian and stopped all the wag nonsense and any players going out during tournaments etc.

It was reported in the press that he failed because he was TOO strict. Very very similar to what happened with Pearson at Derby. 
Whilst the Italian players had accepted this and played FOR Capello, the English lads moaned and complained about him and wouldn’t play for him.

Southgate is opposite to this of course. But then, tactically, he’s clueless.

It is surely possible to get a manager who’s both? Both amicable with the players AND tactically spot on?

We’ll not know now for two more bloody years at least. More of the same is dish of the day I suspect.

Edited 18 December 2022 by Col city fan

[coolhandfox]

Just now, Col city fan said:

Capello wasn’t a busted flush at that point. He was a hugely successful football manager and his reputation preceded him in terms of his tactical acumen.

I remember it well. He was a strict disciplinarian and stopped all the wag nonsense and any players going out during tournaments etc.

It was reported in the press that he failed because he was TOO strict. Very very similar to what happened with Pearson at Derby. 

As I said a man out of time, no matter how good your tactics are if you can't get people to follow you and believe in you, hence the busted flush comment.

 

Brilliant manager in the 90s winning a host of trophies, but was on the wane in the 00s

 

Just now, Col city fan said:

Whilst the Italian players has accepted this and played FOR Capello, the English lads moaned and complained about him and wouldn’t play for him.

Southgate is opposite to this of course. But then, tactically, he’s clueless.

It is surely possible to get a manager who’s both? Both amicable with the players AND tactically spot on?

We’ll not know now for two more bloody years at least. More of the same is dish of the day I suspect.

Mainly because international football is no longer the pinnacle of the sport, lots of average manager working in international football, its either a retirement home or the place for manager who can't cut it in club football. 

[Guest Col city fan]

4 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

As I said a man out of time, no matter how good your tactics are if you can't get people to follow you and believe in you, hence the busted flush comment.

 

Brilliant manager in the 90s winning a host of trophies, but was on the wane in the 00s

 

Mainly because international football is no longer the pinnacle of the sport, lots of average manager working in international football, its either a retirement home or the place for manager who can't cut it in club football. 

I do hope that Eddie Howe will become that appointment when the time is right. Good with people AND tactically sound, he could just be the manager who leads England to future glory. 
He also ticks the box with the FA and the media.

But as I said, it’s more of the same for now. Talk about a lack of ambition.

[Guest Col city fan]

7 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

As I said a man out of time, no matter how good your tactics are if you can't get people to follow you and believe in you, hence the busted flush comment.

 

Brilliant manager in the 90s winning a host of trophies, but was on the wane in the 00s

 

Mainly because international football is no longer the pinnacle of the sport, lots of average manager working in international football, its either a retirement home or the place for manager who can't cut it in club football. 

Capello couldn’t get the ENGLISH boys to follow him. He’d always had success with the Italians. That was my point.

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I'm not interested in comparing Southgate to Hodgson, or Capello, or McLaren, or Sven, or Keegan. That's a low bar that any half decent manager should clear. And I'll admit that Southgate has at least done a half decent job. But I don't think he's capable making this England squad more than the sum of its parts and winning games against the top nations. Y'know, like Morocco managed to do twice in this World Cup, or like Croatia continue to do at nearly every major tournament.

I agree but do you think any manager could? Most of the England players are support players at their own club. They are not bad players, but when you're looking for a leader at Man City you don't look to Foden or Grealish at United you're not looking at Rashford or Sancho to take the game by the scruff of the neck, same with Mount and Sterling at Chelsea or Henderson at Liverpool. Kane is obviously a phenomenal goal scorer but you look at Spurs serial loser mentality. We don't have the players playing week in week out as the difference makers at the top clubs who can drag us over the line. Bellingham stands out a mile because he wants to take the game to the opposition and make things happen.

 

This also goes for the defence, Walker and Stones take their lead from Laporte and Diaz, Maguire is garbage for United because he is expected to lead the defence. 

 

The biggest frustration is despite all this Southgate has got us to winning positions in a Semi and a Final and both times we've not been able to see it out.

 

Oh well, if it's not Southgate I can't see Rodgers or Potter or Tuchel doing any better. Credit to Southgate for getting such a consistent set of results with the players he has at his disposal. I don't think we will ever win a tournament unless we try something different if we're just going to play the same tippy tappy, possession, controlling football as everyone else then we're going to come up against someone that does it better and wants it more and we will lose.

 

If we want to win something we need a maverick like Bielsa in charge to just do something different. Look at Japan their ultra aggressive counter attacking was great, reminded me of another team in blue, they got some great wins with limited ability. I would love us to take that and apply it to the players we have. 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

52 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I agree but do you think any manager could? 

Well....yes. As I said in my previous post, both Morocco and Croatia found a way to beat more talented teams. And as you point out, Japan did too. Why can't we? It's getting boring now waltzing passed the dross in qualifying and the group stages only to meekly surrender to the first good team we play.

[Dan LCFC]

Capello was a bad fit in hindsight. I think the difference with Capello and somebody like Tuchel is he's managed in this country and he's managed some of those players. Capello looked like somebody totally at odds with England.

[TJQuik]

9 hours ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Capello and Sven tactially superior with far more experience but neither got further than him. 

Sven was tactically inept with England and Capello had a vastly inferior squad to what Southgate has at his disposal.

[Captain...]

6 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Well....yes. As I said in my previous post, both Morocco and Croatia found a way to beat more talented teams. And as you point out, Japan did too. Why can't we? It's getting boring now waltzing passed the dross in qualifying and the group stages only to meekly surrender to the first good team we play.

Do you think we have the players to significantly change our style from what most of them play at their clubs? I just don't see anything outside what we're doing bringing success. Other than getting the players more fired up for the big games.